*Hope I didn't miss this in a different thread!*

I'd like to spin off a discussion which I hope will be very interesting, as we are all members of this forum because of a common interest; passion for Progressive music. I hesitate to use the term Progressive Rock, as many of the bands we love play jazz, folk or classical derivatives, and some don't even bother "Rocking it up".

I think the best way to play it is to see what comments come in, and then I'll respond - because (obviously!) I have my own opinions - but I am more interested in what other members think.

So; What Is Prog? What defines a piece of progressive music that sets it apart from a piece that isn't progressive? Does it have to have cool riffs? Great vocals? Instrumental pyrotechnics? Does it have to be intellectually challenging? Is Sergeant Pepper prog?

ENJOY 

I don't think it's possible to define 'prog' exactly but most of us know what prog means and can point to the albums in their collection that have shaped it and made it recognisable.For the sake of this I would just take one:

Yes - Close To The Edge

It's definetly brilliant music played by highly trained and knowledgable musicians.''No nonsense,headbanging mindless boogie'' it aint !!! 

dude wrote: i thought we pretty well settled this one,there is a pretty good definition accessible from the home page

True!...I could put mine but I don't want controverses

dude wrote: i thought we pretty well settled this one,there is a pretty good definition accessible from the home page

I don't think it's clear enough. I think it's a great attempt - and very brave, considering how difficult it is to define prog - witness this thread (which is floundering in the water!) and the various debates within other threads.

The definition page starts out with a short, fuzzy definition and then proceeds to describe sub-genres of prog, with some sub genres crossing over into other sub-genres, at almost equally fuzzy levels.

I know it's a very difficult thing to define - but a fantastic site like this should be able to manage - even if it takes hundreds of attempts! And the best way to come up with a really good definition is to start here - among the members; self-confessed prog addicts with a rabid attention to detail unless I'm much mistaken?

PROGRESSIVE ROCK — a style that combines rock, classical, psychedelic and literary elements — was born in the late '60s with art-rock bands like Pink Floyd and King Crimson, whose albums typically featured 7 to 10 minutes songs with shifting time signatures and evolving musical themes

Doesn't prog also include Jazz? Funk? Metal? What kins of literary elements - exclusively Science Fiction? How about Musical excellence? Isn't that also an ingredient?

Were King Crimson originally an "Art-Rock" band? What is Art-Rock?

Does this mean that to be prog, a song has to be long? Is prog only about songs? Do the time signatures have to shift and do the themes have to evolve? Is that all that has to happen?

Hopefully you see what I mean and understand why I asked the question - I'm really not trying to rubbish someone's excellent attempts at distilling what prog is, just trying to improve on it.

 Dealt with ad infinitum in the early days of the Forum, with (of course) no universally-accepted definition. An impossible task: "Let's all agree on the art that we've each come to cherish in different ways, and at different times/places, over the course of unique lives. Weeeee!"

Another exercise in chasing your own tail!

Still, if never-ending, nitpicking arguments with strangers half your age is your thing, then enjoy !

But I'm "all funned out." I'm taking a breather.

Or, I'll just sit here on the sidelines, watching you attack that which others hold dear, and make disparaging, sarcastic and superior commments like this:

Gentlmen, start your egos!

Peter Rideout wrote:  Dealt with ad infinitum in the early days of the Forum, with (of course) no universally-accepted definition. An impossible task: "Let's all agree on the art that we've each come to cherish in different ways, and at different times/places, over the course of unique lives. Weeeee!"

I've only just joined - I had a look through earlier posts to try to avoid toe-stepping, but couldn't read 'em all . The impossible I do. Miracles you'll have to hang on in there for.

Another exercise in chasing your own tail!

I think that establishing a clear, fundamental definition is quite a useful excercise - something that clarifies what prog is about. Agreed, it can only ever be vague, like any other "category" - but I have questions like anyone else that still has an interest! Otherwise, people who don't know might end up thinking that Mariah Carey is prog

Still, if never-ending, nitpicking arguments with strangers half your age is your thing, then enjoy !

OK - Thanks Dad! I'll stay away from the 10-year olds

But I'm "all funned out." I'm taking a breather. Or, I'll just sit here on the sidelines, watching you attack that which others hold dear, and make disparaging, sarcastic and superior commments like this: Gentlmen, start your egos!

Attack?

No.

Challenge.

Yes.

I do not think I am superior to ANYONE on this forum - I've only just joined and don't know anyone. As you correctly say, we each have our own distinctive viewpoints and appreciate fine music in our own ways.

I like to think that I am not sarcastic or disparaging - if you think I am, then tell me what I said that is sarcastic or disparaging. I am aware that I have some very serviceable size 12s that often get put "in it", but I will only apologise for upsetting people, not for being who I am.

Live Long and Prosper

 No offense, meant, newcomers! You've a perfect right to debate the nature of progressive rock. It's just that I and others already did so here (exhaustively), and we really got nowhere with it. I was also tired, and yes, grumpy last night.

At certain points, however, when we discuss the relative merits of that which we can't help but respond to subjectively, we must agree to disagree.

I'm just a bit tired of arguing, and want to concentrate more on humour, and reviewing.

But share your thoughts -- they could make interesting, thought-provoking reading. And who knows? I might be moved to weigh in on the issue.

Keep proggin'

Peter

progchain Nice definition - I like it!

Peter Rideout Of course it's all subjective - I take no offense - and hope that I haven't given any! When I joined, I anticipated some long, juicy debate with intellectual people - as prog typically attracts intellectuals. So far, I have not been disappointed.

I hope to develop a sense of humour, given time...

Cert. (OK, my name is Mark, but I prefer wierd and wonderful handles on the 'net - don't ask why, I just do).

Well here's my definition of Prog.

Progressive generally means to change. That's basically what Progressive is supposed to be about, the evolution of rock music. And from the 70s, bands like Yes were called progressive, becasue unlike other bands then, they were being revolutionary by experimenting with sound on the keyboard.

Progressive rock in some ways isn't really "ROCK" if you know what I mean. It doesn't really get you into the tough mood. It's majestic, climactic, and emotional at times. Progressive sort of defines rock as an artform. A platform in which you can express moods and feelings in music much better than your conventional riffs.

Most definetly progressive rock is about experimentalism, and evolving rock and allowing it to change and grow even if people don't notice it in the mainstream. It's a stable platform for true musicianship in rock, when rock can't be taken more seriously than simplistic hard rocking melodies for teenagers (punk and some metal)

Fantom JSK wrote: Well here's my definition of Prog. Progressive generally means to change. That's basically what Progressive is supposed to be about, the evolution of rock music. And from the 70s, bands like Yes were called progressive, becasue unlike other bands then, they were being revolutionary by experimenting with sound on the keyboard. Progressive rock in some ways isn't really "ROCK" if you know what I mean. It doesn't really get you into the tough mood. It's majestic, climactic, and emotional at times. Progressive sort of defines rock as an artform. A platform in which you can express moods and feelings in music much better than your conventional riffs. Most definetly progressive rock is about experimentalism, and evolving rock and allowing it to change and grow even if people don't notice it in the mainstream. It's a stable platform for true musicianship in rock, when rock can't be taken more seriously than simplistic hard rocking melodies for teenagers (punk and some metal)

OK I'll go with that

OK, I think I have it.

The problem is that we get hung up on the word "progressive".  There is progressive (small P) rock, in the way that THE BEATLES' music progressed from "Rubber Soul" to "Revolver" through "Sgt. Pepper".  And then there is Progressive (large P) rock, usually refered to as Prog; such as "In The Court Of The Crimson King", "Octopus" and "Tarkus".

Further confusing the problem of defining the genre is the fact that there are so many sub-groups....

"OK, this is Caterbury, that is fusion, over there is symphonic, that's prog-metal on the sofa and that's neo-prog over in the corner."

So there must needs be some way to cut through the fog in order to make a definitive answer to "what is Prog?".

Knowing in advance that I'll get flamed, I'll still give it a try.

*******

Rock 'n' roll, even when it progresses, is music that speaks FIRST to the hips.

Progressive rock, whether it actually progresses or not, is music that speaks FIRST to the brain.

*******

Neither are a bad thing.

That's all.  Fire away.

dude wrote: i thought we pretty well settled this one,there is a pretty good definition accessible from the home page

I entirely agree with that!

Okay, let's look at the word first: Pro-gress-ive. Hhhmmh, maybe it's Prog-res-sive? No, no, it's Progre -ssive. Wait, no, it's Progress - ive. Root word; PROGRESS. Not in political terms, that would be a misnomer. How about a general forward movement, learning as we go, taking something that already exists and building, adding new ideas and properties, and creating something different. Not exactly new, but improved. Revolutionary, like the Porsche to the Edsel. SO, simplistically........

Progressive Music is the melding of different genre's to create a revolutionary art form.   

Nah.....

Joren wrote: dude wrote: i thought we pretty well settled this one,there is a pretty good definition accessible from the home page I entirely agree with that!

Well I think the definition is not as good as it could be - and the attempts to sub-categorise get confused and overlap each other. While it is a fair point that there is a degree of overlap, and the definition of prog is by nature a fuzzy one, I'd like to try to get to something relatively short and pithy. We can also agree on definitions of the sub-categories - or rather distinctions between them, I feel!

If the definition on the main page was good enough, we wouldn't have so many debates within the forum. I don't think they would stop - due to the nature of prog, but it would be much easier to just say "look at the front page then start from there", and if any FAQs came up, that could be taken into account when the definition was updated.

danbo wrote: Okay, let's look at the word first: Pro-gress-ive. Hhhmmh, maybe it's Prog-res-sive? No, no, it's Progre -ssive. Wait, no, it's Progress - ive. Root word; PROGRESS. Not in political terms, that would be a misnomer. How about a general forward movement, learning as we go, taking something that already exists and building, adding new ideas and properties, and creating something different. Not exactly new, but improved. Revolutionary, like the Porsche to the Edsel. SO, simplistically........ Progressive Music is the melding of different genre's to create a revolutionary art form.    Nah.....

It is a difficult task I have set, no? - It is difficult to see how the Beatles do not fit the description you have given!  Nice try, though - I prefer it to the boring responses that say "We've already decided this"; but don't say what has been decided.

My go

Maybe a catch-all definition could be; PROGRESSIVE ROCK: An evolutionary style of music. The term is a bit of a misnomer, as the style finds its roots where it will; in Rock, Jazz, Folk, Classical, World - even Popular music.

The music is evolutionary in that, typically, a strong melody line is initially used, married to conventional harmonies to strongly resemble conventional music of a particular form. What makes it progressive is that, like classical music, the form may evolve through a series of movements bearing some resemblance to sonata form. Some form of development of material almost always takes place.

However there will normally be an improvisational element to break down that form so that the music takes unexpected turns into harmonic, rythmic and textural structures which may bear little resemblance to the opening material. Like jazz, this may become so deeply improvisational that all feeling of form is broken down completely.

Progressive Rock almost always gives itself the freedom to develop in any direction it chooses, and borrows freely from the various trends in other more defined forms of music in order to widen its musical vocabulary. It is this freedom of expression that is the most striking feature of this form of music.

(I think it may be a good idea to address the lyrical content here as well - my thinking cap is still on...)

...and then we can go on to define "Art Music", "Canterbury", Symphonic" or whatever.

As a first draft - any opinions?

Stormcrow wrote: OK, I think I have it. Rock 'n' roll, even when it progresses, is music that speaks FIRST to the hips. Progressive rock, whether it actually progresses or not, is music that speaks FIRST to the brain. ******* Neither are a bad thing. That's all.  Fire away.

As good a definition as any, Stormy ol' boy! Well done! 

Peter Rideout wrote: Stormcrow wrote: OK, I think I have it. Rock 'n' roll, even when it progresses, is music that speaks FIRST to the hips. Progressive rock, whether it actually progresses or not, is music that speaks FIRST to the brain. ******* Neither are a bad thing. That's all.  Fire away. As good a definition as any, Stormy ol' boy! Well done!

Great definition - I really like it.

However, it holds a coupla problem areas;

Most jazz and classical music speaks first to the brain. Yet prog does not include Miles Davies, John Coltrane, Philip Glass or Harrison Birtwhistle. In the case of Philip Glass, no hip-talking is done at all.

I can think of many intros to pop/rock songs that do not "speak to the hips first".

(Iron Maiden) "Woe to you, Oh earth and sea..."

(Motorhead) - Sound of motorcycle starting and revving up (intro to the On Parole album) - speaks to gut!

(Beatles) - The start of Sgt Pepper could arguably talk to either first.

(Metallica) - The opening chords to the Master of Puppets album ("Battery") are classical in origin. When those riffs come crunching in, it's your head that moves, not your hips. Ah. But Metallica ARE prog

Come to think of it, most metal talks to the head. OK, not the brain, necessarily, but the head starts to nod first. The hips might also move, but only as a means to further move the head.

You can probably see where this is going...