Non-Prog reviews on a Prog website?
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53036
Printed Date: June 13 2025 at 17:46
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Topic: Non-Prog reviews on a Prog website?
Posted By: Valarius
Subject: Non-Prog reviews on a Prog website?
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 14:52
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Just thought it'd be interesting to see what people though on this matter. I was listening to Metallica's "Kill 'Em All" last night at work so that I could review it, the problem is, do I rate it according to what I think of it? Or do I rate it in Prog terms?
I don't know if that makes sense... let me explain. Kill 'Em All is by no means a Prog album. It's a straight up metal album. Anyone who uses the whole "it has prog elements" thing is basically opening the doors for every artist in the history of artists to get an entry on this website.
As a Metallica fan, I think Kill 'Em All is a good album. Though I don't think it's a five star album, let's just suppose for the sake of argument that I think it is. Would it be fair giving it five stars in the archives when it's not a prog album? Should I look at my review from the point of view of a Metallica fan? Or a Prog fan?
Another example is "Power of the Night" by Savatage. Really as metal an album as you'll get. An album I'm really fond of that will likely get four stars when I review it. But does four stars seem fair? It's certainly not a prog album. Suppose a lot of Savatage fans give the album high scores and it ends up getting 4.26 (for example), wouldn't that be misleading a prog fan looking for new artists to try out?
On the other hand, if you really like an album, regardless of it's "official" genre, wouldn't you feel guilty not giving it a high score?
So yeah let's see what people think about this.
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Replies:
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 14:56
| If you don't think it is prog, don't give it five stars (unless you think it is BETTER than prog.) |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:04
| Metallica is in prog-related, which means the powers-that-be here don't consider it prog. So give it as many stars as you want. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:10
| OK, my take on the subject may not be very popular, but here it is.... Prog-related (and proto-prog) reviews form the majority of my reviewing pie chart, and out of those albums many have received 5 stars from me. Are they all prog, or with clear prog elements? Of course not - for every Sabbath Bloody Sabbath or In Rock (albums where the prog quotient is undeniably strong) there are albums which I love, but whose 'progginess' is flimsy at best. An example of that is Black Sabbath's Heaven and Hell, one of my favourite albums of all time, which of course got 5 stars from me. Would I have given it less because it's not a 'masterpiece of prog'? Not on your life. I refuse to give lower ratings to PR or PP albums just because a new definition for them cannot be implemented. They are in my opinion great albums that most prog fans can (and do) enjoy, and I think downgrading them just because they are not 'prog' would be unfair and misleading. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:14
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My position is that a band in prog related should't receive 5 stars, because 5 stars represents a PROG ROCK Masterpiece. As good as the album may be, if the band is in prog-related than the powers that be have deemed that they have not released a PROG ROCK album. 4 stars is an excellent addition to any PROG ROCK collection. In my opinion, this is the highest rating that a prog related band's album should receive. And this should be used for the prog related band's albums that are both excellent albums and prog-related. Definitely should only be for albums that would appeal to a prog rock fan, or in the case of Metallica, a Prog Metal fan.
Either way, I think that it is most important what you write within the body of your review. i.e. "I feel that this album is a masterpiece, however, I am only giving it 4 stars because it is not a Prog masterpiece. This really is an excellent album though and should appeal to fans of prog metal." Or some such wording.
Edit: And as Raff posted above me while I was typing my reply, let's just say that we cordially agree to disagree, but either way it is best to be consistent within yourself and your reviews as well. ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:15
I don't rate albums that way of course and do follow the guidelines to the letter actually.. haven given high rating to albums I hate.. and low ratings.. even 1 star .... to albums I liked. But you hit the nail on the head Raff... what matters is the prog fan.. is it an album they will like or love.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Raff wrote:Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:20
Well, you gave 5 stars to the album that you have in your sig.. For most people it's not even prog related!
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:23
most people are idiots 
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:25
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Should I report the above post for name calling? Good thing that I don't know that album or I might be offended. Oh wait, it's just Micky being Micky. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:25
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No matter how much I love The Who and Who's Next, I gave them 3 stars and exxplained why.
Despite being a perfect album, it can't be a Prog masterpiece or an addition to a Prog collection, because IMHO is not even Prog related.
Sad, because I love the album.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:28
oh man.. do yourself a favor Scott.. get it.. you'll see why so many did rate it 5 star.. sure BOC, the group is listed in PR.. but listen to the album. Great stuff.. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:32
 Micky knows his stuff I rate albums as how I see they're necessary to a prog collection. I also rated BOC's Secret Treaties with 5 stars, but that's because I honestly believe that it is an essential album to a prog collection. NOt "how prog is this album", how much does a prog fan need this album |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:36
But Mike, that is the definition of 4 stars. The definition of 5 stars is PROG ROCK Masterpiece. Either way, it doesn't really much matter to me, as long as you are happy with your interpretations. -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:37
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The album in question is called Secret Treaties, and has an extremely high rating. Do yourself a favour, Scott, and get it (here you can get it very cheap too)... It's one example of a PR album that most prog fans love, and with good reason. At any rate, I still hold to my statement that a different rating system should be implemented for PP and PR, in order to avoid what, in my opinion, amounts to a distortion of the rating. It feels as if those albums, in spite of their legitimate presence on the site, have to be 'punished' for not being 100% prog. |
Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:39
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I tend to be one of those people who thinks a prog-related album shouldn't be given a five star rating here even if it is a great album, mostly because that's not how 5-stars are defined on this site. That said, there are no absolutes in this world (unless I'm wrong about that too); I gave Argus five stars a few years ago because I thought it was deserved. Actually, I would argue that album is the only reason Wishbone Ash is even listed on this site. And there are several other collabs who gave it five stars as well, for whatever that's worth... ------------- "Peace is the only battle worth waging." Albert Camus |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:39
Well, as many people say, it IS a prog rock masterpiece. And I consider it essential. I guess the only thing left to say is  It's all in the interpretation
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:40
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*end of shameless BOC promotion* see that is problem with this prog.. non prog stuff.. and most here should be smart enough to recognize it. the simple truth... what is prog to one.. is not necessarily prog to another. Secret Treaties can easily be seen as a full blown prog album.. and has been listed as one of the best albums of the 70's... bar none. An easy 5 star review..which is why it is rated so highly as Raff noted. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:41
True. I think albums that would be of interest to a prog fan do deserve good ratings, because a PR album with high ratings usually makes someone want to go out and listen to it, even if just to figure out why it's so highly rated. A lot of PR artists DID DO fully prog albums as well, dont forget that. |
Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:42
IMHO Proto-prog is a whole different story. In many cases bands have been put in that category solely because they had an album released prior to 1969, and arguably would have been just as appropriately put into an 'legitimate' genre if the PP definition did not exist. ------------- "Peace is the only battle worth waging." Albert Camus |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:43
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And I know that I am preaching to the choir here, but if Secret Treaties is a full blown prog album, then by mailto:M@xs - M@x's rules for the site, Blue Oyster Cult should be listed in Heavy Prog, and not in Prog Related. -------------
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:45
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Quite frankly, I've always thought they should be in HP, but I have no say in that matter. And for the record (I'm starting to sound annoying even to myself now ) Secret Treaties is the ONLY PR record that I've ever given 5
stars to.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:47
politics Scott... politics... and back again to the Micky axiom (yes I have to have one as well damnit  )what is prog to one.. is not prog to another... and well known groups not associated with prog historically have a HORRIBLE track record here for being recoginized for what they did do in the prog arena... thus like Deep Purple are inaccurately put here. Tags and labels.. not judged on the music. Double standards.. should have been in the foreward of the collaborator handbook. It's the site's dirty secret hahhaha ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:47
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I gave Led Zeppelin IV, 4 stars, and it is quite possibly my favorite album of all time. My review explains why though, and I am quite happy with it. I gave it a 10 on http://www.progfreak.com - www.progfreak.com and I am quite happy with that as well. -------------
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:49
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and that's the reason I haven't reviewed Iron Maiden's Piece Of Mind
yet. 5 stars, IMO, but I can't give it 5 stars on this site, and
writing a 4 star review for it would bring me physical pain
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:51
Which I am well aware of, I just wanted to throw that out there for you. And Jon Lord knows that I have absolutely no idea what is prog and what is not.
-------------
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:54
^^^ No one does, Scott, and that's proven by the amount of threads
discussing that point. That's also why we have genre teams who have to
come to diplomatic decisions about what is and what's not. No one
person really can say what "prog" is, otherwise that one guy would be
the one doing all the work for this site. Like Micky has said, it's all
subjective, and that's half the fun of the genre. Plus is gives us all
something to fight and draw blood about 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 15:59
Here are my PP and PR 5-star reviews:
DEEP PURPLE - Burn
../Review.asp?id=53774 - (read review)
DEEP PURPLE - Machine Head
../Review.asp?id=86158 - (read review)
DEEP PURPLE - Made In Japan
../Review.asp?id=75382 - (read review)
DEEP PURPLE - In Rock
../Review.asp?id=85481 - (read review)
BUSH, KATE - Hounds of Love
../Review.asp?id=57113 - (read review)
IRON MAIDEN - Brave New World
../Review.asp?id=162034 - (read review)
BUSH, KATE - Aerial
../Review.asp?id=77504 - (read review)
LED ZEPPELIN - Led Zeppelin IV
../Review.asp?id=111052 - (read review)
RAINBOW - Rising
../Review.asp?id=101189 - (read review)
BLUE OYSTER CULT - Tyranny And Mutation
../Review.asp?id=159949 - (read review)
BLUE OYSTER CULT - Secret Treaties
../Review.asp?id=159834 - (read review)
BLUE OYSTER CULT - Extraterrestrial Live
../Review.asp?id=162968 - (read review)
BLACK SABBATH - Heaven and Hell
../Review.asp?id=152624 - (read review)
BLACK SABBATH - Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
../Review.asp?id=161465 - (read review)
As you can see, most of them are albums that have more than a passing connection with prog, and that can be enjoyed by most prog fans. You'll hardly find me giving five stars to Queen's Hot Space (though I like to shake my behind to "Another One Bites the Dust" , which is not on that album btw). |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 16:00
oh god... you sure can do that....
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 16:01
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^^^ and all of those albums deserve 5 stars depending on your definition of an essential prog album ( on the Brave New World, btw) |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 16:16
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So in answer to the original question, the answer is there is no answer. You have to do what feels right to you, but make sure you back up whatever the rating is with what you have to say in your review, because I still feel that is the most important part of the rating. The words behind it. -------------
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 16:18
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well said
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 16:20
quoted for bad-ass in your face truthfulness ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 16:20
Exactly. Not to toot my own horn, but if you look at my reviews, the final paragraph will always (or almost always) contain a statement explaining why I gave the album the top rating, and if it really had any connection with prog. Personally (and this is valid for any review, not just PR ones), I think ratings without reviews are worthless, because - as Scott said - the words behind the rating are its most important part. |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 16:21
qfb-aiyt?
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 16:23
yeah I like that hahhaha ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 16:36
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I like my reviews to reflect upon the music, instead of contain a strict and perfect relation with the conventional rating principles here (that doesn't mean, on the other hand, that I'm neglijent regarding giving an appropriate rating). Regarding the P-R "eternal problem", I confess the "I can't give such album 5 stars on a website where 5 stars reflect the cream of Prog music" sounds logic, but in the same time, if an album from a band that is in the PR section of PA blows my socks off, so to say, I'll honestly give it 5 stars, because I have no reason to denigrate the music. On the other hand (hope my judgement can be understood...at least partially) I won't give 5 stars to the prog music in that PR-located band's albums if the prog music is not even 1/3 of what makes that album so bloody special. In other words, "great album, but not necessarily spectacular thanks to prog elements". The rating can be confusion-even controversial-by the above said, instead the review can easily explain it - and, ultimately, that's my belief. Reviews > rating.
------------- 
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 17:24
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Nice conundrum here. Say a prog album gets 3 stars and a prog-related one gets 3. Do they then contain the same amount of, well, prog? If they're judged according to the same (prog) criteria, I guess they must. Which leads us to the conclusion that the prog-related album is prog. But the band remains in prog-related, because the album might have been a one-off, or whatever. And to top it off, we have undisputably non-prog albums in the prog sections. Quite a lot of these albums, in fact, in some cases making up up to 50% of a band's discography. And the bands are often defining for the genre... So finally we'd get prog music in the prog-related section, to accompany non-prog music in the prog section... To avoid the above, my advice from page one stands - assume prog-related bands/albums are not prog (this is the official stance here, right?), and therefore don't judge them according to prog criteria. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 18:13
| We deliberately don't have rules or guidelines on this. Everyone should go with what they think is best. It's always a good one to discuss and debate though. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 18:36
this |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 18:46
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I used to have this problem at the begining. With bands such as Deep Purple, Led Zep and all the others of the like.
I think you should review it with the point of view you want, Prog or Metal or just general music. But explain this on the review, Eg: Machine Head 5 stars of Hard Rock not Prog. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 01 2008 at 20:29
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I'm with Raff on this one. Prog-related albums already get rated down by people keen to display their anger at these bands being included, and there's a natural tendency for them to garner lower ratings anyway, given this is a prog-rock site. So why artificially lower them further by ascribing a maximum of four stars? I know what the definitions says for five stars, and I know no prog-related album can fulfill the criteria. However, I think the definition ought to be different for P-R albums, so as not to preclude people from giving 5 stars if they wish. It drives me crazy to read a review which says: 'This is a four star album, but because this is a prog site I'm only giving it two stars.' Thus people will overlook the album. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 00:02
I don't think it is necessary at all to have different definitions...as has been said several times here.. what matters is the review not the rating...5 stars.. or 4 stars.. or 1 star are not going to tell you if an album is the best prog album you have ever heard... the biggest piece of sh*t like Scenes of a Memory was to me I still rated very highly for the SITE .. it is the review that counts.. . and to use use me as an example.. even though I gave SFaM 5 stars at first.. then 4 stars after some thought.. my review stated quite clearly what I thought personally of that album. However we are in business of seeing the big picture. telling those ABOUT the album and helping them decide if the album is for them based on THEIR tastes.....not trying to convince those who really don't give a sh*t whether we like an album or not that they should get it because we like it. The ratings are pointless.. and a waste of time to screw with. As Raff noted.. let her and other give those albums five stars.. if some numbnut goes out and gets Heaven and Hell thinking it is a essential album of prog without reading the reivew.. in which she states that the album is a great one.. but not one in prog terms.. . then they deserve to eat the money they paid expecting a great prog album.. and will just be left with a great album that happens not to be prog. . Read.. not rate...again... the first thing I do when Raff and I buy the site from M@X hahaha is eliminate the ratings for albums.. have people write album reviews.. not rate albums on non-existant and conditions that are not uniform for all.... thus meaningless. Just fodder for the top 100 list.. which would be the second thing to go....------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 00:44
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Interesting points. But also I think the most important aspect is that as we do have a site that has ratings and reviews the last thing you would want people doing is rating albums based on what other people think. Also IMHO to rate/review an album less than what you would honestly want to rate it just because it is tagged as " prog related" is like filling in a health insurance questionaire knowing you smoke 10 cigarettes a day, but you say only a couple of smokes on the form. Personally I think ratings and more importantly reviews built up over a period of time and volume give a fair reflection overall on an albums credentials. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 01:15
| Agreed - the review is far more important than the rating. Yes, I want people to read my reviews, not just glance at the rating. But I would still prefer to have all reviewers working off the same rules - but at present some won't rate a P-R album higher than three stars, no matter how good it is. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: November 02 2008 at 20:51
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I rate this rating thread a 3 on the prog side, but a 4 on the rock side. Once they let me outside, I'll rate the inside. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 08:53
 Because this site includes so much stuff which (even by its own admission) isn't "prog," I'd rate it simply as MUSIC, but take care to explain the seeming discrepancy in my review.
(Thus any album could qualify for top marks -- I believe if we put them here, the rating "playing field" should be level for all listed artists. I have never liked the words which perforce accompany the ratings.)
Old issue -- it will be there until those exclusive words are dropped from this inclusive site. "Prog" and "progressive" are highly subjective, vague notions in any case, and not a very meaningful way to categorize music.  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 09:16
Yes, BOC are Heavy Prog. But this is the same problem of Deep Purple and Rainbow or Wishbone Ash. And for this reason these bands are evalutated from me as Prog bands in my reviews. ------------- 
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Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 10:06
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I think the problem is not only in prog-related bands. There are lots of PROG subgenres and not so many people appreciate all of them. Thus even 4-star rating (Excellent addition to any prog music collection) will not work for everyone. No matter how good some reviewed album is, if you don't like the style (be it neo-prog, prog metal, avant/RIO or something else) it hardly can be an excellent addition to your collection. ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 13:58
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There simply isn't any way to combine two ratings into one without losing information. When people see a rating, they usually don't see the reasoning behind it ... so giving an album less stars just because it's not prog will usually do more harm than good IMO.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: November 03 2008 at 21:33
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I think the simple fact that Metallica quoted a 10th century French Catholic Bishop is enough to qualify it as a prog album
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: November 04 2008 at 12:23
I think it's an interesting point you're making here, Scott. For the same reason I have a bit of a problem the way the site works where the Top 100 of all times is concerned. In this top 100 just the real prog categories should be represented but it's full of proto-prog and prog related albums. In the line-up of subgenres these two categories are in yellow instead of orange as if to say: they only partly belong on the site. But they are just as easily represented in the top lists and that shouldn't be the case in my opinion.
I would like to see just the real progalbums in those lists. ------------- A day without prog is a wasted day |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: November 04 2008 at 13:41
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I personally agree that you have to rating an album about his quality and the way the musicians express their feelings in music forms.
I found excellent albums of bands that are consider "proto prog" or "prog related" and sometimes BETTER that the full fledged Prog bands.
I think that Prog world is the most subjetive ever, so i do not mind to put 5 stars in a prog related or proto prog album, but with a proper review that justifie the 5 stars. -------------  |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: November 04 2008 at 22:36
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I agree with the overabundance of proto-prog and prog related bands in the top 100. But we also know that some truly prog bands have put out "less" progressive albums that have been well received by their fans. Remember someone dissing Harmonium's 5e Saison, because of a seeming paucity of progitude ? Yet, there it sits in the top 20. Supertramp's Crime of the Century is also reviled by some as not quite real prog because of what they put out afterwards. So to save the site all the headaches, it's basically "you're in here, you can be up there". Mind you, God save us all if Kill 'Em All did hit number one. The rate of cardiac arrests would certainly wipe out a good part of the purists at this site. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: November 04 2008 at 22:39
| But let's all remember that the top 100 that appears on the front page is filtered so that Proto and Related aren't visible. I'm surprised that's not keeping anyone happy. |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: November 05 2008 at 16:51
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This issue has been discussed and my opinion has not changed since then. As long as the album is included in the archives, I do rate an album not entirely based on its 'progresiveness', but to the level I enjoy it, and my perception of its overall value. It would be greatly 'unfair' to masterpieces like 'Powerslave' and '7th son' (examples) to be rated with less stars, because the term is prog-related and not prog. I can say the same for masterpieces from Deep Purple, Metallica, BOC, where my ethos does not let me rate them with less than 5 stars. After all, my background is non-prog, so my views will be different from other people... |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: November 05 2008 at 20:43
My God, I never noticed that Deep Purple and the Who weren't there anymore. My whole world is shattered. Which list do I believe in ?????  ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: ZowieZiggy
Date Posted: November 22 2008 at 04:46
I have never figured that out
 . Why not filtering Jazz/Fusion as well??? Is this a more prog-oriented genre than proto? ------------- ZowieZiggy |