Transition of Prog rock
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53658
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Topic: Transition of Prog rock
Posted By: NoEarthleyCon.
Subject: Transition of Prog rock
Date Posted: November 26 2008 at 18:27
| This has always been a question that I have asked myself. I am a young prog rock fan that has grown up with parents that have been devoted fans of bands such as Yes and Genesis(gaberial years). I have always wonderd that in other forms of music during that time period have grown into forms of music that are very present in music scenes right now. Like how the Grateful Dead have basically created a entire genre of music that has followed up and continues to produce good music such as: THe string cheese incident, phish and widespread panic. I feel that with the complex instumental talents of bands such as Yes and Genesis that this would be able to push people to play this type of music. I understand that bands like transatlantic, spocks beard and the flower kings have produced amazing music, yet i feel there should be a more broad base of a prog movement. Another question I propose is also , why didnt a band like Yes play shows were they would play solos and "jam" like the grateful dead? P.S. sorry for all of the grateful dead refrences, im not exactley a fan of there music, but more of there musicianship and there ablility to "jam" or produce such well played solos. thanks |
Replies:
Posted By: Bern
Date Posted: November 26 2008 at 19:03
Well, while Yes are certainly really skilled musicians, it doesn't mean they can jam and make it sound good. It's a totally different approach to music. Maybe it wasn't their cup of tea either or the image they wanted to show. Some bands love structure and embrace the idea of well-structured and perfectly played music. Jams are kinda the opposite of that. They can turn bad, are not structured and, often, musicianship mistakes appear in the process. That's exactly what I like about jams but it's certainly not for everyone. This is just hypothetical. Maybe Yes could jam really well and maybe they liked it. It's just an attempt at explaining it. Welcome to Progarchives by the way!  -------------  
RIP in bossa nova heaven. |
NoEarthleyCon. wrote:Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 26 2008 at 19:07
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you heard any of King Crimsons spontaneous stuff? ..THRaKaTTaK comes to mind |
Posted By: Sunny In Jeddah
Date Posted: November 26 2008 at 19:40
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Just because you can play interesting stuff in complex time sigs doesn't mean you're comfortable or good at "jamming" in front of a live crowd. ------------- 
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 04:57
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I don't find jamming good or bad in itself. Same thing with its absence. On one hand, I'm quite fond of bands that make a true art form or even a religion out of jamming (Can, Deep Purple, Hawkwind, King Crimson and so on...) but on the other hand there's a band like Captain Beyond. What I like so much about them is that they've got all the signature changes and playing around with rhythms that are typical of progressive rock - but on their selftitled at least, their songwriting is just so tight and concise and they make this idea of short but complex songs work. It's as seamless a cross between prog and standard 1960s/1970s hard rock as you'll ever find. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 06:47
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Yes playing the centre section of 'America' comes pretty close to my idea of jamming.
Not very impressed by it though, shows that it's probably better that they didn't pursue the idea.
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 07:17
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Well, I like the middle section of America, Yes should have done more imo. There is some "jamming" evident in live versions of Starship Trooper for instance, although this is over a fixed chord sequence. There are probably other examples but I often feel they could do more. Rush is another example of a band that tends to replicate studio versions note for note, in Peart's case he often replicates his drumming as well. On the odd occasion they have jammed, they do it well. |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 08:31
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I love the middle section of "America", but I never felt Yes were good at jamming or even improvising. Those "duels" between Steve Howe and Rick Wakeman (or whoever else was on keyboards) in recent years always felt scripted! One tune where Steve used to let himself go in the early days was "Yours is no disgrace". If you listen to his solo on the Yessongs album, it's considerably different from the Yessongs movie (filmed, I believe during the same tour). Fascinating stuff! A shame he soon gave up improvising after that!
But there's hope, you know. One of prog's greatest guitar players, in my view, is Allan Holdsworth. He plays riffs, lead melodies AND improvised solos brilliantly on albums like GAZEUSE (Gong) and FEELS GOOD TO ME (Bill Bruford). I've recently discovered some of his best solo albums: they're mostly improvised but really lovely, i.e. not over-technical. And Holdsworth's still at it! |
Posted By: Darklord55
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 08:49
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You don't have to apologize for mentioning the Dead, imho. They are not my favorite band but I still like them and have a good collection of Dick's Picks. When I'm in the mood to kick back and listen to some jammin they are my first choice. I always will wonder what they would have been like without all the drugs. And how good Jerry would have been if he hadn't been high on herione all the time. Guess we'll nvever know. They could play some good space rock at times. The only thing I don't like about jamming is it tends to turn into a noodling session after so long. And, it can become rather tedious which at time can lose an audience. The jam band needs to realize when to stop in order to keep things interesting. Jazz musicians also have a tendency to noodle a tad bit too long. Cheers!! |
Posted By: popeyethecat
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 11:11
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The idea of improvisation absolutely terrifies me. Then again, so does performing in general. Jamming isn't for all musicians, even the very good ones! It's a completely different approach that also needs to be learned and practised. Some will prefer to study composition, and to be honest, bad improvisation is bad
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Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 12:46
One man's "noodling" is another man's paradise. Prog bands are routinely accused of "noodling" in the mainstream media. There's plenty of "noodling" on Steve Hillage and National Health albums - and I just can't get enough of it! |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 12:48
That's true too! I've never seen the point, for example, of King Crimson's THRAKATTAK. It's a P-E-R-V-E-R-S-E album! |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 13:53
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 13:55
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 14:18
Yeah, and if they go out of their way to keep the jamming focused they get accused of "droning on". (Hawkwind's probably the best example here) ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Scratchy
Date Posted: November 27 2008 at 14:53
| Jamming is usually based around blues.Yes were about getting away from the blues sound.There were literally hundreds of blues based bands around in the late 60's.They were probably sick of that sound at that time so tried to do something different along with a few other groups i.e. birth of progressive rock. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 04:50
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NoEarthlyCon, I suggest you hang around the archives for a while, you'll see that the musical base of prog these days is incredibly diverse. There may still be bands like Transatlantic, Spocks Beard and The Flower Kings, but you have the likes of Taal, White Willow, Dream Theater, Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Kayo Dot just to name a few that are quite different.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 04:56
But it can also be based around jazz, which means that you can jam in a way that moves away from blues.  (yeah, I know that jazz is derivative of blues but that doesn't change the fact that by the sixties those two genres were very clearly distinguishable from each other) ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: NoEarthleyCon.
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 11:13
| Sleeper, I admited that there is progressive rock stil present, but not relavent like other bands from other genres that are similair to prog rock. And no offense to your personal taste, yet i dont consider metal progressive rock, it just doesnt fit my ear. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 11:27
Why should they?
That´s not their style neither the music they play.
Grateful Dead is a USA band born in San Francisco in 1965 when Psychedelia and for that reason jaming was on their peak, that's the music they wanted to create and they were good at it.
Yes is a Symphonic band that reached their peak in the early 70's when complex and well structured music with Classical influences was in the peak, they don't need to jam to do their music and their skills are beyond any doubt.
I believe jamming is overrated in most cases.
But at the end, each one has his style.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: NoEarthleyCon.
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 11:33
| I never really said that they needed to jam to be good musicians, I just would enjoy an hour long version of starship trooper where each of the members of Yes would play a 15 minute solo. haha Hey, everyone can dream. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 11:39
But that wouldn't be Yes, they donˇ't jam, their music is too well structured to admit jamming, most of ther bands of those days were pretty similar on stage than on studio, just listen genesis Live (1973) or Renaissance Live at the Carnegie hall, you'll find that the similarities between their albums and their concerts is amazing, because they were able to repeat it, many bands jam because they can't recreate perfectly what they did on studio with the help of technology,
Starship Trooper with 15 minutes solos would be more like a light version of Dream Theater, and I'm sure that's not what the fans want.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: flaxton
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 11:49
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i love the music of cream but some of their jamming did get rather boring. ------------- flaxton |
Posted By: NoEarthleyCon.
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 12:09
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So Ivan, I didnt know Yes put you in charge of what is Yes and what isnt Yes. Is Yes with benoit david singing yes? is Yes with trevor horn Yes? Give me a break buddy, all I said is that I would enjoy seeing yes play some songs with extensive solos. ------------- We are sun |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 12:34
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Hey don't be so touchy, this is a discussion forum, if you come here is to discuss, not to expect everybody praising what you say, there will be some that agree and others that disagree, acceopt that and you'll enjoy the forum more.
I believe that after almost 30 years of listening yes, i might have an idea of how their music sounds.
They never done 15 minutes jamming in their whole history, so obviously I'm only expressing something that's evident for any person that is slightly familiar with the music of Yes.
Well, whatever the name they choose for the tour, they will be singing exclusively Yes, and pretty similar in all aspects, because the guy sounds almost exactly to Jon Anderson.
Yes it was, it's on their official discography and IMO an outstanding album, much better than the two previous.
But that wasn't a jamming album either.
What we want is irrelevant, I would love to see Genesis with Peter Gabriel, Steve Hackett, Anthony Phillips and Bruford or Thompson replacing Collins who's best years IMO are behind him, but it won't happen.
In the same way Yes is not a jamming band, if they did extensive jamming sessions that wouldn't be the music Yes has played for almost 4 decades, you may like what you want, that's your privilege, but we also can believe it would be boring, depresive and cease to be Yes.
That's the beautty of freedom of opinion.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 12:41
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BTW: Welcome NoEarthlyCon. but get used to the debates, that's the main interest of this site.
Imagine how boring Prog Archives would be if you said "I would love to see 15 minutes solo jamming on Yes" and all the members replied.......Me too.
 Almost as a 45 minutes squire solo  (just joking)That wouldn't be a forum, but a fanboy club.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 13:45
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A. Yes has jammed.
B. Jamming doesn't have much to do with prog.
C. Just because you're a good musician doesn't mean you're good at making stuff up on the spot and jamming.
D. Grateful Dead jammed because that IS a characteristic of phsycadelic rock.
E. Jamming is only good sometimes, but when it drags on (like on Led Zeppelin's album The Song Remains The Same) it is overrated. Hope I answered your question!   ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: November 28 2008 at 13:58
Your opening post claimed that progressive rock doesnt have a broad base to it, which is completely false as its broader today than it has ever been before. And by "it just doesnt fit my ear" do you mean you just dont like it, or do you have a reason to not consider metal progressive? ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: NoEarthleyCon.
Date Posted: November 29 2008 at 12:20
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I meant a broad base in a relavent music scene, im pretty sure that about less than 1 percent of the world really cares about these random prog bands. And basically to answer your question,i just dont like metal, therefore metal prog really doesnt do anything for me either. I tried before, just couldnt do it, the moments I enjoyed would be heavily outweighted by the moments were I would rush my finger to the next button. Im by no means saying that any of these guys are not talented, yet when i think of prog i think of Tales from topographic oceans, not music that sounds like it would want to make you kill people. haha ------------- We are sun |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 22:33
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i think what you're looking for is Frank Zappa, Phish, Umphrey's McGee, and The Mars Volta ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 30 2008 at 22:42
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Led Zeppelin live, man |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 10:03
Noodling is when the solist isn't getting his message across. A brilliant solo is when you feel the soul, or the solo belts you in the guts, or effects other emotions. There is a fine divide between the two, with no two members of an audience being equally receptive. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 10:13
Personally that would be dull. Yes touring The Yes Album in the early 70's, rearranged the live instrumental parts for different instrumental voicing, e.g. Howe playing bass along side Squire, when the studio album had guitar and Hammond. How much of that was improv , I can't say but it clearly demonstrated Yes were thinking beyond the box and knew their audience didn't want slavish copies of the originals. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: sean
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 11:49
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I agree with those who say that being a good musician doesn't necessarily mean being good at improvising, some people tend to prefer structured music and I guess that's what Yes wanted to do. Personally, I prefer music that is spontaneous and improvised, and as a musician, that's what I do best, but everyone has their own talents.
and If you liked improvised music, you really should hear the Mars Volta, especially live. Very wild and energetic, and long, yet it never gets boring.
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Posted By: easytargets
Date Posted: December 01 2008 at 13:40
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Tony Levin is coming to my mind.Where´s the transition of prog rock here?
This thread is about jamming and improvisation, or am I wrong? ------------- The water rushes over all cities crash in the mighty wave; the final man is very small, plunging in for his final bathe |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: December 03 2008 at 11:20
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Posted By: Gentlegiantprog
Date Posted: December 03 2008 at 18:04
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This may be heresy; so let me preface by stating that I am a huge Crimson fan and go by Kingcrimsonprog on most internet sites... but I HATE King Crimson's jamming, can't stand it. Especially the noodling in Moonchild and any improv in the 1980's. With the exception of Ashbury Park off of USA which is awesome. Is it weird to only like Crimson's studio material when they are so praised for jamming ? Other bands can jam and make it sound musical and like a song, but some can't. ------------- Let the maps of war be drawn ! 
http://kingcrimsonprog.wordpress.com/ |
Posted By: Bitterblogger
Date Posted: December 03 2008 at 22:12
Actually, or at least according to her, Pussy Galore is in charge of that. Check out the "Yes? I think not!" threads, where Squire gets
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 03 2008 at 22:19
depends on the jam-- love the stuff on Night watch, don't care for Thrakattak |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: December 04 2008 at 08:38
Have you heard King Crimson... period!  ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: December 15 2008 at 20:26
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Interesting thread, as I'm currently getting my own band to incorporate improvisation into some songs, where there is a determined section of the song that is improvised, then we use visual cues to bring it back in. Hmmm...could this perhaps be a relatively unexplored area of prog? It occured to me once at Phish concert that they had some decidedly proggy sounding stuff going on...I wonder why more prog/jam fans don't overlap...a skillful improvisation can be an exhilerating musical experience...the ultimate prog, in a way, as each performance of that music can develop further... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: NoEarthleyCon.
Date Posted: December 17 2008 at 01:46
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Wow, Jplanet, you finally hit the nail on the head, I believe you might be the only person whos read this thread that actually got my point...thank you ------------- We are sun |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: December 17 2008 at 02:35
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Wow, cool! I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but it occurred to me since my last post that ELP used to be big on improvisation...Check out any live version of Aquatarkus, every performance was totally different. And the version on "Welcome Back My Friends..." is one of the most inspired and powerful live performances I've ever heard...I'll have to think about it and see if any other examples occur to me... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |