What defines a masterpiece?
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Topic: What defines a masterpiece?
Posted By: crimson87
Subject: What defines a masterpiece?
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 19:31
In your opinion:
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Replies:
Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 19:42
| My rule is simple- must be able to play it after 10 years and still get the same buzz from it. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 19:43
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Well for me, an album needs to stir me up emotionally from beginning to end. But it can't stop there. Even after the album has ended, you still feel it, it still haunts you, it still sends shivers down your spine, your still in another place for a while afterward, you still feel energized (or whatever emotion/s it may be that stay with you after the album is over). And months/years later, you still have to be able to get those feelings out of it. There a fair amount of albums that do this for me, but yet, they still remain the minority perhaps. And well, I'm a metal guy, so for me, metal (in general, to me I still include prog metal as being metal anyway) is the genre that moves me the most and produces the most masterpieces for me personally. ------------- 
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 19:50
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Very, very few should get the "masterpiece" label, maybe the top 5%. A masterpiece should break new ground in some way, or be the best of its peer group, or both. Beyond that it should move you emotionally nearly every time you play it. It should be a profound listening experience, defined by the listener of course. It should be much more than just the latest enjoyable album one buys. There's LOTS of good albums out there (the most common kind), there's still LOTS of excellent albums, but there should be but only a few masterpieces IMHO. Bottom line, the masterpieces are the 5% of your collection that you can take with you to the desert island. (The other 95% of your collection will be picked up and delivered to my garage)  ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: DatM
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 19:50
Basically it's something that you really really really like  But getting more serious, I would say it's a song, album, whatever, that seems perfect in every way with no flaws. It just IS. Every note is perfect and you can't see (er, hear) the seams. It's pretty rare, but it's so subjective. One person's masterpiece is another's turd. There are songs I used to think were masterpieces that I kinda laugh when I listen to now... And I don't think it has anything to do with genre. I see genre as the medium...what language do I want to say this in? As long as what's said is coherent and honest, the language used doesn't matter Just my 2 cnts... ------------- Death and the Maiden - A Metal Tribute To String Quartets http://www.deathandthemaiden.net - Website http://www.myspace.com/deathmaiden - Myspace |
Posted By: Sunny In Jeddah
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 21:31
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I think it needs many keyboard soloz ------------- 
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 22:00
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The listener ... he said mysterioulsy (misplleing it on purpose)
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 22:16
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whatever it is I don't think a 'masterpiece' is synonymous with perfect .. i.e. here at PA, 5 stars indicates masterpiece, but I've awarded 5 to albums that have imperfect moments, Pekka Pohjola's debut for one |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 22:39
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I wouldn't want to quantify 'masterpiece' at a certain percentage of albums produced. We're all different. We weed out the worst albums before we make a purchase - but we all have different tolerances, and some of us are more prepared to take risks. Then some of us demand perfection, while others are more forgiving. I've given 5 stars to 60 out of 377 albums, but I've reviewed only a small fraction of my collection, and have a lot of poor albums left to review. As to what I WOULD say about a masterpiece album, it ought to be captivating in some way. It should challenge, or affirm, or haunt you, or make the hair on your neck stand up, or gasp and applaud. It doesn't have to be original or innovative, but it ought to have integrity. It ought to be more than just a 'good listen'. It should reward multiple listens. And that's hardly beginning to scratch the surface of what a masterpiece might be. In the end, it comes down to a combination of what it objectively is and how it subjectively makes me feel. Head and heart - a masterpiece must have both. |
Posted By: M. B. Zapelini
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 05:04
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A masterpiece should be the best work of a certain artist, period. I don't know what makes a masterpiece and I think that everybody has a different answer. E.g., most people seems to worship "Close to the Edge", but in my opinion "The Yes Album" is the ultimate Yes masterpiece. ------------- "He's a man of the past and one of the present" PETER HAMMILL |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 05:21
I agree with that but I'll add that its got to be perfect, or near as, without any weak points at all. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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HughesJB4 wrote:Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 05:33
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A masterpiece is an album that has a heavy impact on the listener, an album that evokes strong emotions, an album that makes the world and the very principles of existence appear to the listener in a brand new light. Or it may just be an album with really cool songs on it. |
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 05:44
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My masterpiece is as follows:
The album that is easier to hear
The album that is too awesome to hear easily
...Maybe such albums will remain on me, in my mind, forever. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 05:51
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About Yes- I personally view Relayer as their masterpiece.
I think that Masterpiece would apply to an album that defines the sound of the Band and an album that defines it's genre - both points would need to apply.
I love In for the Kill by Budgie but I wouldn't call it a Masterpiece. I would call Foxtrot and Thick as a Brick masterpiece albums, as well as Scenes from a Memory and a couple of other DT albums. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 06:31
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Does a prog 'masterpiece' need to represent a significant 'progression' on the artists part? Or can it simply consists of a collection of songs that large numbers of fans agree, are the bands best and most consistent??
Does the criteria for a rock or pop masterpiece differ from that of a 'prog' masterpiece? I think these are important questions, although clearly, what constitutes a masterpiece is a matter of opinion. A masterpiece in my opinion is a work where all the best elements of an artist come together in one place. What these elements are, obviously differ from artist to artist. |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 06:38
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I suppose that you could have a personal 'masterpiece' - something that is definitive to you as an individual. However no matter what I paint it will never be regarded as a masterpiece - the Mona Lisa however is regarded by art critics and effectionados all over the world as a masterpiece. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 07:00
Yeah - agree. Even 30+ years in my case, and there are a couple of late 60s/early 70s albums I would rate as masterpieces to this day. No examples, too subjective.
Right now I reckon I'll rate Pendragon's Pure as a masterpiece in 10 years time. Ask me in 2018, though. ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 10:36
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A masterpiece??? a masterPIECE!!!!!!!
Well to consider a musical prog masterpiece should have to be a quintessential album of an artist, and album that can define the "Classic" sound of band, for example: For me Deep Purple's Machine Head and Uriah Heep Demons and Wizards qualify to be a masterpiece.
But nodaways i think that is a very subjetive topic and everyone should have their own private masterpiece's -------------  |
Posted By: limeyrob
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 10:40
Agree to some extent but doesn't this rule mean that only albums pre 1998 (or 1999 in a few weeks time) can receive a masterpiece rating from members aged 28 or more. Sorry for assuming that you have to be 18 to listen to prog - but you get my point.
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Posted By: friso
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:29
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A progressive rock masterpiece is a record that is amazing on a level or some levels.
Script for a Jester's Tear is very good in theatric emotions, but not technically.
Mahavishnu's Birds of Fire is technically very good, but not as theatric as other records.
Then there are records specialized in combing music with lyrics and storytelling.
And there are record with supernatural atmospheres like Can made in the '70.
Then there are groundbraking records...
In the end the masterpiece is a record that touches or amazes you the most. However, a masterpiece on progarchives is a record that touches or amazes a lot of folks on this site.
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:38
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Hey - kingfriso - agree and disagree. I think that Script...... is a masterpiece. But that is personal opinion. And it is technically very good! ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 12:04
Well, I think an 18 year old can call Foxtrot or Close to the Edge or whatever, a masterpiece because they've been out for so long and have already been christened that by so many listeners. As to newer stuff, I think 5 years is a more reasonable assessment. But again, that 5 years is not 5 years from the time listener X hears it, but 5 years from release. It IS possible for something brand new to be considered a masterpiece, but I think time (again, roughly 5 years) is required for it to be really considered that. Then, of course, you have classical music and the art world where most masterpieces were not considered anything special by their contemporaries, but only much later after the artist or composer were dead. So it's also possible that something all of us alive now consider crap, could be hailed as a great masterpiece 100 years from now. Tricky subject. Overall though, as far as this site goes, it's totally subjective. Plus, with the 5 star system, I feel like I need to give certain albums 5 stars, even though I may loose interest in them over time. |
Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 15:18
Sorry to quote you again but I DO get your point. I'm not ageist and I like as much new music as I do old - and by no means just prog. I'm 51 and my son is 17 and we swap/share stuff all the time.
it's just that a lot of old gits of my generation (I'm an old git too) tend to have more 'masterpieces' to talk about as we have lived longer and - generally - had more time to judge longevity.
More power to the new generation(s) and may the music prosper. ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 16:46
| It makes me want to click past the WARNING on the 5-star button |
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 16:53
Just about sums it up for me... it just has to feel special... there are many albums technically superior to those I consider to be all-time greats, it just doesn't have the magic in it. I guess the only guidelines I have is that it has to be original and consistently good. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 16:55
| While I was mostly kidding my post was full of truth. A 4 star album is solid and highly impressive, a 5 star album send shivers down my spine at every turn and I never want to review it because I just want to have more and more of it. It seems like the quicker I want to review something the less I like it and the more I want to be done with it. Not always the case, but most of my 5 star albums will have 15+ listens before I review it, even if I could express my thoughts clearly with much less than that. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 17:28
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I think innovation is a key factor. Perfection also. But I think it's more that spiritual feeling you get after a masterpiece album that defines it, like that feeling you get after watching a really good film, i.e. One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. It's hard to describe, but I think we all get it.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 20:02
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Everybody is taking my original 10 years post too seriously- this is just my personal litmus test. Experience has shown there are far too many releases that sound absolutely brilliant and even a review after 20 or listens may result in the 5 star accolade, but their appeal fades over time, until they become boring and never hit the platter again. To me this is not a masterpiece, just a good piece. A lot of reviews here are based on those initial impressions, where a good piece absolutely takes you on a ride (for a time). But please treat this with a grain of sand- it's just a personal opinion. And, I do really love those ones that take you for a ride, for a short time. And as someone has already pointed out- it is the next generations who will define our masterpieces. (I just hope they are Yes, not Madonna)
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Posted By: Soul Dreamer
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 22:25
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A Masterpiece is an album that doesn't fall apart after about 10 listenings, and still sends you shivers down your bones. I know that if I feel that after many listenings, it must be a great album to me. The time limit on this is not very important. There doesn't exist a litmous test for this, only your own perception. If we cannot jugde an album after say 1 month after the release, how can we write reviews of new albums anyway...It would be silly to wait for 5 years...(or more...) ------------- To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica) |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 22:45
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Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 03:12
In the case of El Dingo Junior (aka Joshua, 17), your hopes for the future are in safe hands
Mind you, as much as he likes his own and his dad's prog, he's heavily into Thrash and Death Metal, too.
He's also got my Strat & Peavey, so I've got my own hopes too ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 07:52
Originally in medieval Europe though to the mid 20th century, a masterpiece was what an apprentice, at the end of his apprenticeship, made to demonstrate he was worthy of joining the elite masters of a trades guild. So a masterpiece originally was a piece of work that demonstrated advanced and complicated skills, that few others had. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 10:14
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My dog defines them, mostly
------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: Mr. Chill
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 23:59
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I can't really say for sure what it is, but I can tell you a few things it DOESN'T have to be. Virtuosic (is that even a word?) - It doesn't need the best musicians playing the toughest parts. Sometimes simpler is better. Popularity: Just because it sold a lot, doesn't make it a masterpiece. I mean, 50 Cent sells a lot of records... Critical Praise: Just because the critics consider it "a masterpiece" doesn't make it one. Innovative: Often this the criteria critics use to define masterpieces. However, in many cases, the band stole from underground bands and just happened to be the one to breakthrough with that style. Then they get considered the one that invented that style, which may or may not have been true. Just some comments from me. And one last thing. Another important thing is timelessness. When bands like Porcupine Tree start talking about "X-boxes" on their albums, I immediately lose interest. |
Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: December 13 2008 at 02:58
That's a great rule, cobb2. Also, affirm what el dingo has said: To this day, 'Awaken' from Yes GFTO (1977) gives me that "same buzz": Jon Anderson's stellar vocals, Howe's bluesy guitar juxtapositioned against Wakeman playing that Swiss church organ - definitely a masterpiece! Gotta disagree with limeyrob a bit, tho. "All of the Above" on Transatlantic's first album (2000) is another masterpiece, IMO. As are both: Eriatarka from TMV, and "Skullflower" from SOAF, 'Lover the Lord has Left Us.' I'm an old guy, totally into 1970s prog. But, there is some great stuff coming out nowadays, from all over the prog spectrum. So, don't be so hasty to say only pre-1999 is any good... |
Posted By: 88melter
Date Posted: December 16 2008 at 09:59
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Well,
to say that every person has different criteria for masterpiece status, or that different art forms may have different criteria, or that a masterpiece is defined only by the emotional response it produces is not answering the question.
This idea has to have specific criteria, that will certainly include many persons ideas, aspects of art in general, and human feelings. But, this is just the beginning...
A progressive rock masterpiece has to compare favorably with masterpieces of other art forms, as well as rise above the commonplace, however revered, in its own genre.
What do the Mona Lisa, the Rite of Spring, F L Wright's Fallingwater, Picasso's Guernica, the film version of Gone with the Wind, Beethoven's 5th Symphony, and Proust's Remembrance of Things Past, have in common?
Firstly, they are all ICONIC. If you want to refer to a book, movie or painting, you might use one of these works.
Second, they are all important over time. A Masterpiece lasts long enough that, even if it's value and importance was not immediately recognized, it became clear and persisted.
Third, the technical innovations of each one were subservient to the larger expressive purpose of the makers. Chops aren't enough, you gotta SAY something, and it had better be important.
So, progressive rock is a little young as a genre to get to these levels. Think of the album or song that means jazz or country to you. Think of the most interestingly designed automobile or appliance. Think of the book that you read that changed your life. Then, think, "why did these items mean what they did to me?" Techniques, forms, content, presentation, and a clear and vital reflection of a time and place are the qualities that masterpieces share. I don't want to influence anyone's choice of this or that progrock work as a masterpiece, but only to provide better criteria with which to judge.
good listening to you all, and, isn't it odd that there are no prog Christmas/holiday songs? well, perhaps not so odd...------------- 88melter |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: December 16 2008 at 13:40
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It needs to be consistently engaging. At the moment an album loses my interest, I probably won't consider it a masterpiece. It's not necessarily flawless. Flaws make something human. I'm not sure there's a single album I'd consider absolutely 'flawless'. I need to be able to remember every song. I need to end up thinking about it when it's not playing. It needs to be distinctive. I don't think there's just a few albums. I think that a 'quota' of masterpieces is simply a silly idea. Different masterpieces are masterpieces for different reasons. |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: December 16 2008 at 17:59
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It needs tons of things. It needs to be emotional, yet also be dark, and have heavier themes. Some examples are Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, Stranger In Your Soul, Supper's Ready, Octavarium, and The Great Nothing. In general, prog metal has the most songs that I love, though Symphonic Prog isn't far behind. ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: 88melter
Date Posted: December 17 2008 at 02:54
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Mr Chill, he
makes good points, yet they only tell us what a masterpiece does NOT have to be. Good info, but negative criteria may not help make the right judgements, only avoid bad ones.
Some groups do miss the critical or popular boat, and are denied their place in the trail of influences that make a genre what it is. Jazz is so packed with black musicians that did not make the bigtime wide audience thing because the color barrier kept them out, or a white band doing some new black thing got hired to play for white people. Brubeck and time changes, for instance. Art Blakey's band was doing that some years before, with an all-black ensemble. Which prog-bands went underappreciated or were "borrowed" from without credit I am not sure I could say.
I am going to continue to read these forums, hoping to find the newer progrock that meets these kind of high standards, and plays the same role in the lives of younger people as the 70's stuff did for me and the grey-haired crowd.
I am done with this one, thanks for reading, and visit
http://www.prog-music.info - www.prog-music.info for the website of our Madison, WI-based band called, simply,
PROG
------------- 88melter |
Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: December 17 2008 at 04:08
Hate to spoil it for you, but there's a whole threadful about prog Christmas songs up and running somewhere at the moment!
Haven't got time to give you the link, but it's easy to find via Forum Home. ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: December 17 2008 at 04:48
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music that ceases to be just music. Id say personally a masterpiece is any music that gives me shivers/goosebumps/chills. thats the benchmark against which i measure all music. that rare song that connects with you enough to affect you phyisically is what music is all about. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: December 17 2008 at 09:30
What defines a masterpiece?Music that has a plus 4 rating on prog archives  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: December 27 2008 at 17:17
Actually it's a rating that goes above the 4.49 mark.
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: December 27 2008 at 18:49
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"Masterpiece" is all up to the individual, so why not ask them?
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Floydoid
Date Posted: December 28 2008 at 04:04
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For me a masterpiece is an album / musical work that has the following attributes: 1) it is much more than the sum of its parts 2) it moves you profoundly 3) you keep going back to it no matter what ------------- "Christ, where would rock & roll be without feedback?" - D. Gimour |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 28 2008 at 06:40
that seems more the attributes of an album/musical work that a listener loves... a masterpiece would seem to more than just that... it is recognized as such... not just by it's fans but by the musical world at large. ie. Dark Side of the Moon. Close to the Edge. Brain Salad Surgery. For cult or niche genres like prog... the masterpieces are those albums which not only appeal to fans of the genre.. but those who don't normally consider themselves fans of the genre. that makes a masterpiece.. a masterpiece.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: December 28 2008 at 07:17
Oh what a strange question this is ...  There is no rule, law, authority or what ever who defines what makes up a masterpiece of progressive rock music - it's an individual decision why don't see it like that (somewhat harsh): every band/artist has produced a masterpiece when releasing more than one efforts because one of them is their best.  Okay - I don't vote in this way - but I avoid to give five stars for more than one album which comes from the same artist. On the other hand I give five stars for a band which is quite unknown when I'm sure it's innovative and absolutely nothing lacks ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: December 28 2008 at 08:29
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Masterpiece - a work of art that is capable of appearing to make time stand still for it's duration If in doubt, if it makes you weep, you're in the ballpark... ------------- 
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Posted By: steve j
Date Posted: December 29 2008 at 15:23
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Here's a simple concise definition of a masterpiece -
It has over 4.5 in prog ratings and has been reviewed by over 500 people.
This would mean we have just 8 masterpieces within the archives, seems about right to me!
You may lower the bar, but then you cannot have too many masterpieces or the definition of a masterpiece fall down. Please feel free to discuss............................
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Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: December 29 2008 at 17:22
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Masterpiece I'm always having in my bag. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 29 2008 at 17:25
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I find that I don't often listen to a masterpiece!!!! I tend to put it away for a "rainy day" and then I find that I don't listen to it often!!!!! ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: DamoXt7942
Date Posted: December 29 2008 at 18:01
Can't help cryin'...  ------------- http://www.facebook.com/damoxt7942" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: January 05 2009 at 01:46
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If you accept what our PA reviewers prescribe, there are just thousands of them out there.......... and do you know what, there aren't .
But I'm probably just a little perverse because I really dislike the term ' Masterpiece ' . It may just be one of those things that allows non - prog enthusaiasts and our harshest critics to label us..................oh no, my lips can scarcely frame it and my fingers tremble upon my keybbard..... ppppretentious ! ! ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: January 05 2009 at 19:38
Why? ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Agadepáuer
Date Posted: February 15 2009 at 16:29
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You know you're gonna feel pleasure and emotion hearing it the next time you listen to it, even if you have listened to it a million times before. How many are few? I think there's a fair amount of albums I consider masterpieces, but still it's a tiny minority of ALL the albums there are (is that an obvious remark or what?) Most prolific genre: that depends too much on personal taste; I guess my choice is metal in general, including prog metal (but that's also the kind of music I listen to most, so...). |
Posted By: Agadepáuer
Date Posted: February 15 2009 at 16:46
Maybe because you know it will always be there when you need it, and meanwhile you are searching elsewhere for other masterpieces . |
Posted By: Agadepáuer
Date Posted: February 15 2009 at 16:58
I don't think it's a matter of numbers. A masterpiece is no less of a masterpiece if it's surrounded by many other masterpieces or if it's not reviewed enough. Buy yeah, don't lower the bar. |
Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: February 17 2009 at 04:47
Spot on!! |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: February 17 2009 at 06:41
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A lot of the above points are very valid indeed, but I don't think a masterpiece is definable because there is also the subjective factor.
If I associate a wonderful album with a particularly wonderful period of my life, it's bound to have a much more powerful impact than it would have had during a depressive period.
As sad as this may be, this can be a make-or-break point for any album. Quite unfairly, of course, but it's human nature.
This could possibly account somewhat for some wildly differing estimations concerning some ratings here.
But let's not forget the small matter of personal taste, as well.
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Posted By: Dervisan
Date Posted: February 19 2009 at 06:41
if you are a your country's young musicians want to play this albums sound again, and if they cant do this... it is a masterpiece  a masterpiece have to be original and hard to play again....it cant be pretended... spirit .. masterpiece is high point of spirit in a musicians music life... ------------- Turkish (Anatolian) Progressive Psychedelic Ethnical Rock |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 19 2009 at 10:12
I haven`t read any of the responses because I don`t want to be acused of cheating by the invigilators. 1. A masterpiece must have depth, ambiguity and above all virtuosity but not necessarily technical virtuosity. It must have atmosphere and elements which draw emotion from the listener. It must inspire more than one listen and with each listen new discoveries come to light. 2. Focus - Hamburger Concerto Omega - Suite Emerson Lake & Palmer - Tarkus Yes - Close To The Edge Jane - Windows Pink Floyd - Echoes Grobschnitt - Solar Music ( I could go on but I have to concentrate on the next question ) 3. After classical music in all it`s eras and forms Art/rock Progressive rock. ------------- |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: February 19 2009 at 11:36
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I'm glad someone came up with the original meaning of the term masterpiece, which is getting confused with the term "Magnum Opus," which an artists ultimate work. I think masterpiece is generally used to mean a master craftsman creating a work with the peak of their talent. Not all of a master's work is a masterpiece, but a master will likely produce many masterpieces. Artists "knocking at the door" of being masters might produce a work worthy of the title, but a mediocre one is unlikely to even if it is their best work.
Masterpieces can be described as others have done, which is subjective, and what defines a master is subjective as well.
The pieces I rate 5 stars here truly are on a higher level in how they move me in some way. Many are far from flawless, but all transport me, and all tend to retain that ability as years pass. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 19 2009 at 13:09
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So would the Mona Lisa be a masterpiece? According to your definition here Girls Girls Girls by Motley Crue could be a masterpiece. ------------- |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: February 19 2009 at 14:22
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Again, mixing up terms Girls Girls Girls may well be Motley Crue's magnum opus, their ultimate work. However, as I don't consider them masters of anything but pretty darn good entertainers, nothing they've made is a masterpiece. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 20 2009 at 09:51
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So the work by the artists you`ve listed you consider masterpieces?
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: February 20 2009 at 11:03
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Absolutely.
Every single one of these artist are masters in the true sense of the word. All have lesser work. But each of these albums, or at minimum certain tracks, are true masterpieces. In that list you have two of the best bass players to have lived, probably the best guitarist to have lived, almost certainly the best banjo player to have ever lived, the best active folkie, and one of the most talented vocalists of recent times. True masters, mindblowing pieces of work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AYz62UxLPg&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AYz62UxLPg&feature=related
Watch this...... ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 20 2009 at 14:45
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Hi,
I think the answer to this goes something like this ...
... why do we consider the 9th symphony a masterpiece?
... why do we ... blah and blah
The answer is that the musical piece left behind an indelible stamp on your body of inner experiences. And that can be good and bad, I suppose, and in general when it comes to musical standards, they end up being considered masterpieces.
Now, you don't have to see "Amadeus" to realize that during that time, a lot of his stuff was not considered the great masterpieces that they are considered today ... and the same goes for Debussy, Chopin and so many others ....
I, personally, do not use the term. If someone can get an orgasm off the 9th, I know that Keith can get his off the Endless Enigma, and I personally can get mine off No Caipira ... you get the idea ... and that would suggest that the term is really an academic exercise in defining what appears to be better or best.
I don't think that Stravinsky is better than Mozart. Or vice versa. I don't think that Genesis is better than Kurt Weill ...
All in all it is an expression, and as such it has a value to our inner experiences ... I happen to think that "Apocalyptic Bore" is one of the most important musical masterpieces from Amon Duul 2 ... I simply do not think that they ever got that close or better ... or more important ... and many folks don't think so ...
When you take the opinions out ... what do you have?
People .... legs, arms ... and in this case with some musical instruments. Unless you are taking measurements for whatever reason, why is one better than the other? We're all brothers and sisters and friends and the experiences we share in music is one of the grandest experiences in life ... sure Pink Floyd was a masterpiece at the Hollywood Bowl in 1972 ... but does that mean that I'm not, or any other music out there is not?
NO.
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Posted By: Matthew T
Date Posted: September 17 2009 at 17:05
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For an album to get to this status for me it takes time and most importantly repetition. If I am still playing an album 3 months after I purchased it and still it keeps popping up on my play list throughout the rest of the year and I am still loving the album and still hearing the odd new thing throughout it will be in with a real good chance. This of course is my view but all my personal masterpieces are fairly old albums. Of the more modern ones ( now remember this is my view) but Nevermind,NIN ,Pretty Hate Machine,Opeth...Still Life or Blackwater Park ( 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other there), Joe Henry......Scar or Civilians,Tom Waits ...Mule Variations ( He has a few on my list but this is his latest for me) and there are others as well.With PT the ball is still in the air even after all this time but my favs are Sky Moved Sideways,Signify.Lightbulb Sun and Deadwing. That is one of the reasons ( not that I do many ------------- Matt |
Posted By: NecronCommander
Date Posted: September 17 2009 at 20:45
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Here's a newbie's opinion: A masterpiece, be it a song or album as a whole, should represent what the combined elements of a genre, when expertly composed and articulated, can be used to show the idyllic image of the genre as a whole. For example, on a single song basis, I would consider Porcupine Tree's "Deadwing" a masterpiece of progressive rock. The long track length, incredibly dynamic and technical structure, strong, emotional riffs, use of ambient elements, use of instruments like the synth and acoustic guitar with distorted electric, variating heavy and light, floaty sections, conceptual lyrics, and excellent vocal work all mesh together wonderfully for a wholly beautiful and satisfying feat of musical prowess. It exemplifies what prog is, at its best. But I think that the most important aspect of a masterpiece is that it doesn't necessarily have to be perfect. Do I think that certain elements or parts of Deadwing could be tweaked slightly to make the song even more to my liking? Yes, but then it loses the most important aspect of a masterpiece: that it is the truest manifestation of the artist's contribution to the genre, a definitive statement of the best expression of the genre humanly possible. Anything else would not be the artist's true work, and thus not a masterpiece. So while it may not be inherently perfect in every single way, it's as damn close as humanly possible. |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: September 17 2009 at 21:02
A masterpiece must make my brain jizz all over the inside of my skull. Yeah. Classical, but my favorite music piece/album ever is jazz (Kind of Blue by Miles Davis). Prog has it's share of masterpieces too (Supper's Ready, Close to the Edge, Man-Erg, Schooldays (GG) Starless, Us and Them, All of the Above, Even Less (these are masterpieces for me anyway)).
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Posted By: Tengent
Date Posted: September 17 2009 at 21:44
| IMO a piece of music that I wouldn't make a single change to if it were my own. (perfect) |
Posted By: TheLastBaron
Date Posted: September 18 2009 at 01:37
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That's a hard thing to define concretely. There a lot of albums that I really love and will think of masterpiece when I first get into them and than as time goes on I will notice imperfections that I didn't immediately pick up. I think that for an album to be a true masterpiece it has to grab you firmly, be very enjoyable and deep, be very creative and technically impressive and hold all those things for years, To me it has to a have a sense of timelessness to, something that doesn't feel dated. Yet there are some albums that I've considered masterpieces that don't have all those traits, so who really knows.
------------- " Men are not prisoners of fate, but prisoners of their own minds." - FDR |
Posted By: The Sleepwalker
Date Posted: September 23 2009 at 11:40
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I think the term "masterpiece" is very subjective. For example, I think Pink Floyd's The Final Cut is a true masterpiece, while others see it as a bad and boring album. It all depends on what album fits in with your musical tastes. What are the principal atributes a masterpiece must have? - It must fit in with someone's musical taste perfectly. Therefore I think an album has to be unique and has to stand out. For my personal taste this means that an album has to be diverse, pretty much flawless, unique and I will more likely find it a masterpiece if it has lots and lots of emotion in it. Do you consider that few albums deserve this label? - Yes I think only few albums deserve such a title. An album can be fantastic, but that doesn't make it an exceptional experience that has that special feel to it. Which is the genre that produces the most of them? - The subgenre on this site that contains most masterpieces IMO is Eclectic prog, mainly because of one band, which is VDGG. Still Life and Pawn Hearts (and probably Godbluff) are among the best albums ever made, and I see them as masterpieces. Pink Floyd has made three of them too (WYWH, Final Cut, Animals) and those are probably the only "true" masterpieces I know... though some albums are very close to being masterpieces. ------------- 
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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: September 23 2009 at 12:42
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for my part a Masterpiece record moust have elemtents I enjoy in music I listen to, so that will say that for an album to qualify masterpiece status by my ear there are some things it needs 1. Good constructed songs, with melodies, nice flow and contrasts 2. for me the second moust impotant thiing for a masterpiece album is a dynamics use of instruments (the way the instruments are used and how strong or soft they are playd) and sections inside a song. 3. diferent moods is importan: like ethereal, lush, airy, cold, warm and intence. 4. exploration of different genres, and styles. (also in one song like Suppers Ready, Bohemian Rapsody etc) 5. and last climax a good opener and a strong ending exemples are Three Friends by Gentle Giant, Crime of the Century by Supertramp. |
Posted By: SonicDeath10
Date Posted: September 27 2009 at 23:02
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For me, a masterpiece is an album that's really really really really good. Nothing more or less. You just know.
What genre makes the most? That's a loaded question. You want me to say prog. I'd say prog has about twenty true masterpieces. The rest are paste.  ------------- "Good evening hippies." Bobby Boy |
Posted By: Pangaea
Date Posted: September 30 2009 at 11:21
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Here we go with all the defining BS again.
I like SonicDeath's definition: 'a masterpiece is an album that's really really really really good'
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Posted By: sealchan
Date Posted: October 01 2009 at 17:05
To dovetail off of this...
A masterpiece is understood in four contexts:
1. The overall work of the artist or artists involved
2. The type of art that the work is being considered as an example or exemplar of
3. The degree of skill involved in its creation
4. The community which collectively recognizes the above
So while a masterpiece is a subjective evaluation it also can have its objective qualities. When a community that values art or a type of art comes together they may more or less help to define objectively the value of a given work. A work's value, after all, is instantiated in a work's appreciator. The individual subjective response is the root of any evaluation of something. In other words, no one will value a thing if no one values it.
So when those who study and otherwise value art come together and discuss the various qualities of a work more or less agree that such and such work by such and such artist is a particularly fine example of such and such, then you have a community which has identified a masterpiece.
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Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: October 05 2009 at 00:00
Damnation ! This thread didn't die . Here . Let's see if this [ a post from mrgd ] helps......... 
I mean, it's just great that you guys are putting up all these wonderfully esoteric like criteria in all seriousness . Bravo people - it's mind numbing stuff ! I prefer Pangaea's reference - prefaced by the observation that if there is any such thing in the world of progressive music [ which the cynic in me doubts ], it's probably a piece of music that a lot of people really, really, really like for a long time......and not just a little bit either. And one thing it isn't, is about 98% of ***** albums or releases awarded on PA..... Sorry. ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: NJCat_11
Date Posted: December 07 2009 at 00:37
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A Masterpiece is an album or song that is perfectly balanced between its intricate complexities and simple grooves, epic "wall of sound" guitar riffs and blissfully tranquil acoustics, preaching plot devises (for concepts) and badass sing-along lyrics that you don't necessarily have to decipher. Of course, the album or song MUST showcase musicianship of the highest degree (something we're all accustomed to by now). Most importantly, however, regardless of how many times you've listened to it, you feel personally insignificant when compared to the work itself. It moves you. Ex. Dream Theater - Images and Words, Awake Psychotic Waltz - A Social Grace Check out Bigelf's "Cheat The Gallows" as well. It may not qualify as a masterpiece, but it's pretty damn awesome. ------------- "We are Defenders of the Faith" - Rob Halford |
Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: December 09 2009 at 11:57
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It must be a song that I really, really, really, really like. There are no formal criteria for me.
------------- This user has left the PA fora, but will occasionally post reviews so as to support artists. |
Posted By: Basíleia
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 10:10
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A real masterpiece has to stirr anyone, and it really doesn't matter who, emotionally, thus eventually every single album/song can be a masterpiece (there are so many people on this earth, you know)...
For me personally quite a lot of albums have this aspect, for example: Brave, Somewhere Else, Misplaced Childhood (and most of the other Marillion albums
 ), A Farewell to Kings, Hemispheres, Permanent Waves, the Theusz Hamtaakh trilogy, The Window of Life, Not of This World, Queen II, A Night at the Opera, A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers, Harvest of Souls, The Lamia, In the Presence of Enemies, Night, 13th Star, Metropolis (part 1 and 2)... So I think a lot of albums/songs can be a masterpiece The genre that produces most of the masterpieces, well....that's a really easy one:
Progressive Rock!!!
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 15 2009 at 20:15
Just looking at your list reinforces my opinion that there is no such creature. Music is waay too subjective for your criteria. Going back to the original criteria:
1. Attributes has two "t"s. 2. If masterpiece = total perfection, then pretty much no albums warrant though may come close to that label. 3. For those that do approach it, it is not exclusive to any particular sub. I'll get back to you as soon as I have listened to everything out there. After a while and after you get familiar with more and more music, it becomes an asymptotic exercise. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: halabalushindigus
Date Posted: December 18 2009 at 02:02
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I A Masterpiece must 1. Sound good. .. musical tones and phrases that you've never heard before A well embodiment of mind Humility. Great Lyrics La- De-Da. You know what.....(it took me a light-year to find the delete button) You know what ...this is kinda bs cuz everyone defines a masterpiece in hisorherownway
A MASTERPIECE MUST fullfill the urges of your musical soul and yet reflect the inner-listener as he recognizes himself. Lets Go To The Master And Ask Him.....
Beethoven and i mean only Beethoven There is and can only be one beethoven and if Im wrong the n call me an ass. But Im am right about this as I am many things, all of you Great Great TALENTED PEOPLE. We start and finish with Beethoven. WHY? Because
A. He commands you to Concentrate
B. He rewards you with Pure musical bliss
3. He Reminds you that it is He that is the Master
Beethoven will always give you a signature ending that says,"composed By Beethoven" for example the minuete will have ended and then a tonic note GGG GGGGGGG GGGGGG (upper register GGGGGG middle register GGGGGG lower regeister GGGGG and then FINALLY amajor 7th note against the tonic (which is sour, yet it fits) That is a work of a master. You feel Happy, you feel clean . You know that the composer repects you as a Divine human being that is treated with repect re: both genders .I find Masterpieces mainly in Gospel music without instrumentation (only Choral Because there is a spirit to the Human Spirit that reaches out to God. It must push the envelope of feeling and sincerity. And it MUST hold your attention until the last phrasing leaves you tingling with chills of Gratefullness because YOU WERE THERE with the song and the song gave you back yourself only In a More Comprehensive way. and you become enlightened. A Masterpiece says BE YOU!! ------------- assume the power 1586/14.3 |