Israel/Gaza: Calling all UK forum members.
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Topic: Israel/Gaza: Calling all UK forum members.
Posted By: Blacksword
Subject: Israel/Gaza: Calling all UK forum members.
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 03:10
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There is a petition on the Downing Street website, calling for sanctions on Isreal, in light of the recent 'dissproportionate' military action, undertaken by the IDF in Gaza. This has resulted, to date in the death of around 900 Palestinians; a large percentage of which have been children.
Here is a link to the petitiion, for those who wish to sign: http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Israel-Sanctions/ - Sanctions for Israel? I realise this is an emotive topic, and this is not intended to start a sh!tstorm on this forum, but an opportunity for those who wish to express their disgust at Israels overwhelming cruelty, to do so officially. We all know the arguments for and against the Israeli action. I happen to fall on the 'against' side of the fence. Note: I am in no way anti-Semitic. I respect Israels right to defend itself and wholly condemn the rocket attacks on it's civillians. |
Replies:
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 06:10
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Already signed up, Andy
++++++++ Admin note:
Everybody please take note of Blacksword's quote above - This thread will be monitored closely for content. ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
I realise this is an emotive topic, and this is not intended to start a sh!tstorm on this forumPosted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 06:26
An appalling mis-appropriation of force by Israel  ....... will sign for sanctions .
-------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 07:51
Is that only for UK citizens? I'd like to sign too, and I'm sure Micky would as well. That said, I agree 100% with what Andy said in his note. Israel's actions remind me of someone who is trying to drive off mosquitoes using a flame-thrower .
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 07:58
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Raff, sadly yes, you do have to be resident in the UK to sign this particualr petition.
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 08:05
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Well, hope enough people will sign it on behalf of the two of us too...
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 11:40
You're smart to make such a disclaimer. Unfortunately, some confuse denunciation of Israeli state action with bigotry against Jews. But then again, this sort of manufactured confusion is all too familiar: in the US, those who disapprove of some of their government's policies are condemned as anti-American. It really is the language of fascism: the identification of state policy with patriotism. A second point: the concept of "Israel's right to exist" is, quite frankly, bizarre (I realize that it's the popular terminology, and I'm not criticizing you for using it). What does it mean to have the "right to exist"? Either a nation exists or it does not exist. Of course, the legitimacy of particular state may be contested (a somewhat moot question, though, since most states are illegitimate); but this point has no bearing on the "right to exist." |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 12:13
Fair point. A more accurate term to use would probably be 'I respect their right to defend themselves' All nations reserve this right of course, but it looks to me that this is going beyond defence. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 12:30
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no matter whom the violence comes from, Palestinians or Israelis, it always hits the "wrong" (meaning "non-responsible") people. yet I agree that the Israeli reaction is disproportionate; they should at least accept a temporary ceasefire
-------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 13:01
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Has an online petition ever done anything?
Just curious. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 13:29
Probably not, for an issue of this magnitude. But, it's one of the few ways the electorate can express their strong feelings. It does no harm. It has to be better than saying nothing. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 13:54
I don't even mean an issue of this magnitude. I mean anything. From remastering Californication and Death Magnetic, to stopping various TV shows from being cancelled, to trying to stop mandatory almond pastuerization, to stopping Polaroid from discontinuing certain types of film, to things I'm too lazy to look up that probably full under something similar to what I have listed above or, like, saving the whales and whatnot, they have all been pathetic failures, to the best of my knowledge. The only thing I can think of where the internet has been on the winning side is Net Neutrality, and that had a bunch of very high profile endorsements as well as merely working to retain the status quo, so I don't think that counts.
Yet people keep making and signing them as if they might make a difference. I don't understand it. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 15:37
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^ in a Democratic society (or other) any form of protest is extremely viable, thousands of Institutions, Countries and laws exist today because of people protesting and signing petitions - eg Trade Unions (the Tolpuddle Martyrs), Protection laws, Hygiene laws, Safety laws, changes of Government (Revolution), American Independence, Votes for Women.....
People Power can topple Governments and stop (or start) wars - the list goes on and on and on.......
 it will be a sad day when we can't protest anymore
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 16:07
But not internet petitions. And even still, all those things were accomplished with things a lot stronger than petitions.
Do you know something I don't? ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 16:35
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If you do nothing, nothing will happen. Take 60 seconds out of your life to add your name and there is a possibility, however remote, that something will happen.
I know which odds I think look better.
------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 16:40
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Signing an internet petition IS doing nothing. No one will ever pay
attention to them because it's so easy for people to clear cookies and
sign again under a proxy. If you're only donating 60 seconds of your
time you clearly don't care that much to begin with. If we as a society have reached the point where protest consists of using the same form of action some fans use to get canceled TV shows back on the air, we are well and truly f**ked. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 16:55
Until someone shows me an instance where an online petition has had any meaningful effect, I maintain the possibility is zero.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 22:08
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Destroy the terrorists.
That's all I ask.
I don't sign anything. This time, I side with Israel. As unbelievable as that sounds to me, I side with the "use force" side.
And then the world will ignite in flames. I know that. Chaos breeds more chaos.
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Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: January 12 2009 at 22:31
| I'd sign but, I am not in the UK and I guess some of my money is invested those attacks anyways? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 01:51
Well, I would agree that we are well and truly f  ed. I couldn't dispute that..
However, the internet is just another tool by which people can make a protest. We are still free to march, shout and wave placards around, but this is just another means. As for people who really care about this issue, what do you think they should do to express their disgust, or make a difference..?? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 01:59
Destroy the terrorists: Couldn't agree more. Trouble is, Israel appears to be staging a massacre, under the pretense that they are surgically targetting Hamas militants. In this very short war, so far, over 900 Palestinian civillians have been killed. Although Hamas very bravely fire their rockets from civillian areas, some of the Israeli air strikes have been on populated areas, where, according to UN officials on the ground, there has been no evidence at all of Hamas activity. PM Olmert claims that Israel is near to achieving it's goals, in dismantling the Hamas military machine, but Israel always make one fundamental mistake. They think that support for Hamas will die out because of a conflict like this, but history has shown that support for the terrorists is actually bolstered when the IDF go in hard. That's what led to Hamas being democratically elected in the first place. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 01:59
courageous post Teo, going against an absolute majority.. and considering we don't know the real details, your stance may be the most prudent |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 02:17
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I haven't seen this picked up by the major networks, and I'm not sure why, but if it's true, I challenge anyone outside of Israel to defend it: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2009/01/israel_bans_arab_parties_from_coming_election.php - The two Arab parties, which represent 20% of the electorate, have been banned from the next Parliamentary election. The last time they banned a party was 20 years, and it was an extreme Zionist party that advocated the deportation of all Arabs from Israel.
Write your representative, they tend not to read their letters but somebody did, unlike the petition. Protest IRL without chanting "Put the Jews back in the oven!" ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 02:24
but do you challenge anyone inside of Israel to defend it.. then you might get some reality |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 02:30
I do, but there's no point because their perception is more likely to biased.
I can't imagine something that could warrant banning a party. These are mainstream parties, they're not funding terrorists. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 02:37
you mean more biased in the way that people actually living somewhere might have a greater stake in and keener sense of what's going on? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 03:05
Goes to show, Israel is not really a democracy, and it's ruling party, and mainstream opposition are indeed, racist. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 03:51
That reminds me of a tale my brother, who is ten years older than I am, told me. He had been at a protest demonstration against the use of nuclear power, when a passenger shouted: "All these demonstrations should be forbidden! Geht doch rüber! (a hard to translate expression literally meaning "go to the other side", but meaning "move to the GDR"; the expression was quite common in West Germany while Germany was still divided; I will use "go over" as translation), whereupon one of the demonstrators replied: "Why don't you go over? Demonstrations are forbidden there"! -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 14:00
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I`m in enough hot water right now but I was waiting for this. I guess i qualify for this petition. I`ve got dual UK /Canadian citizenship. But I think I`ll sit this one out. I`m a former military man and I just wish we could have peace on this bloody earth. Is that too much to ask?
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Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 17:35
History would suggest, alas, that it is indeed too much to ask, but as the anarchists said in 1968: 'Soyez raisonable. Demandez l'impossible!' ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 18:33
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Anything won't happen and the reason is that no matter how hard you try. It's the US decision to stop this war they have special rights in the UN security council but they restrained to vote. Siding once more with Israel. It's like saying : " Hey we can lend you some extra F-16 pal"
Besides do you think Obama will vote against Israel with the huge jewish lobby that suported him on the elections?
It's a pity you have to be British to sign the petition. But anyway , similar methods are going to be implemented in most countries to stop this war. All I am asking to the Israeil authorities is not to mess with Mahoud Ahmadineyad , if they do we may face the f*cking apocalypse.
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 19:02
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I want Israel as a state to exist. I don't really care where it is, but I think that group should have a homeland. Their main actions seem to be justified here. Hamas, it seems, is not compatible with the existence of Israel, so it has to go. They are cowards and less than human, hiding behind civilians to try and urge Israel into killing a few civilians so they can parade them in front of Western eyes. However, though I do not know the details, using white phosphorous bombs seems to be a no-no in the civilized world, and it also seems Israel doesn't care. I'm also quite pissed the American government bends over backwards for Israel in all circumstances, no questions asked. It's a mess of a situation. I am getting quite fed up with the middle east. If this Holy Land is causing all this trouble and doesn't seem to get better, then I'm tempted to say bomb it all to hell or just let the nutters kill themselves over it. Just don't bother me with your fanaticism. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 19:42
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Quite in agreeance here I am with Stonebeard's last phrase.
Thank you religion. -------------
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Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 20:22
I agree 100% with the bolded part. At least the Israelis don't denounce everyone around the world who isn't Jewish. Secondly, before you sign that petition (I don't really want to go on a rant on my opinion, so I'll keep it short), imagine yourself if you were in the shoes of the Israelis who are subjected almost daily to the threat of missles being launched at you by a terrorist group like Hamas. What would you want your government to do? ------------- 
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 20:26
This is a great summary of my opinion. I'm REALLY becoming irritated with all this bullsh*t. ------------- 
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Posted By: KoS
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 20:32
| Both sides are so full of bullsh*t. It is getting hard to care anymore. |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 21:02
Yeah, except for that bit about not allowing Arabs to hold office. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 21:16
no I don't think so.. I mean is that really a good idea? "Don't mess with him" or we'll face the apocalypse? Isn't that precisely where he wants you? It's all about fear, isn't it. Fear, fear, and more fear. Ahmadinejad can kiss my hairy ass if he'd like to but he won't intimidate me and he won't intimidate Israel. I know a bully when I see one and he's a classic small man with a chip on his shoulder. He's a child in a man's body, and his country is paying for it. The little weasel. The only good thing about him is that Iran could have an even worse leader. Now-- if he has a change of heart and decides to be a real statesman, lead his country and maybe the entire Middle East to a resolution that's one thing. Right now he's just a punk. |
Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 21:29
I get what you mean, but what part of "put yourself in their shoes" is so hard to understand? To us outsiders, it certainly doesn't seem fair, but quite honestly I'm not surprised that Israel has always treated the Palestinians like crap. From what I've learned, they (the Palestinians) are like that kid who's a social reject and sits by himself every day on the playground during recess until he snaps and starts going nuts. It used to be that large numbers of Palestinians would flock to other Middle Eastern countries, but Egypt, one of the countries heavily involved in the current peace discussions, has closed their borders to Palestine. They don't want these people and no other country does because they just cause trouble wherever they go, at least they did last time I checked a history book. Anyway, to respond to what you said, try to imagine the situation from the perspective of the Israelis. I can fully understand why they wouldn't allow Arabs to hold office in Israel. How many native Arabs can you think of that like having Israel around? -------------
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 21:48
If somebody stole something very valuable from you and destroyed it, would you be the best and most objective person to decide what the best way that society should punish him is? What if it were a more serious crime?
They didn't ban Arabs, they banned the major Arab parties...And what you just said is shockingly racist, besides taking an extremely one sided view of the situation. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 21:53
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I've had things stolen from me, it bites big time, but I think people's lives and homes are a little different than an Iron Maiden album |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 21:58
But the bias that just makes things worse is the same. You can use a more extreme example if you want. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 22:01
Where do you think I'm being racist? I'm not trying to be and would be more than happy to clarify what I mean. Also, the reason I'm being one-sided is because last I checked, Muslim groups like Hamas have been the cause of much more violence and damage than any Jews or Jewish group that I can think of. Why the hell do people always blame Jews and/or Israel for causing problems when they just want to live in peace?! -------------
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 22:07
And I wasn't trying to call you a bad person. But I'm pretty sure generalizing an the inhabitants of an area as violent psychopaths is racist. It's not blaming the Jews so much as pointing out the atrocities they have committed in the name of self-defense.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 22:12
OK now this is getting a bit absurd, you're digging a hole you may not want to dig.. what we need is a United States of Mesopotamia with a single currency and a Federal court overseeing the different states |
Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 22:16
Alright, I understand the first part. I do tend to generalize sometimes with regards to what history says. By no means do I think all Muslims are bad people either. What atrocities are you specifically referring to? If the white phosphorous thing is one of them, last I remember that was used as recently as the Second World War. The fact that we have "civilized" countries still using it doesn't really surprise me. It's a hell of an effective weapon for rooting out an enemy that's dug in and entrenched (although the fact that they are chemical weapons does lead to the moral issue of the dilemma). -------------
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Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 22:18
Well unfortunately, my opinion on this issue hasn't been taken well so far, possibly because I hold a minority opinion. -------------
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 22:25
I'm trying very hard to stay calm right now. Palestine is the social reject? They were kicked out of their own country because a country thousands of miles away committed atrocities on a people who used to live in the region. Eventually countries close borders to refugees because they just can't deal with them, not because they're "troublemakers." 1.4 million people are living on a strip of land smaller than a decent-sized city, and those are the descendants of generations of refugees. They've only ever known squalor and malnutrition and barbed wire all around them, and they get sanctioned by the West. The ratio of Palestinian deaths to Israeli casualties is right now 971:13. It's a goddamn slaughter. And they're just being petulant? How dare you. |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 22:32
No, you didn't check, nor have you ever checked. The ratio from this conflict alone is 971:13. In the 2006 spat, 7 Israelis died compared to 394 deaths. I allow people's opinions, and have heard some interesting defenses for Israel, but if you're just going to parrot "why is everyone picking on noble, democratic Israel" talking points and just make sh*t up, kindly don't voice yours. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 22:37
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Dmitri? ..Dmitri?! |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 22:41
Of course I like talking to you! Of course I like saying hello! |
Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 22:41
Last I checked, this was between Israel and Hamas, not Israel and Palestinians. They get sanctioned by the West because Hamas has been declared a terrorist group by many Western countries for many of the terrible atrocities they themselves have committed. The Palestinians suffer from "squalor and malnutrition and barbed wire" because Hamas currently runs that country and prefers to use money to launch missles at Israel rather than establish ways for Palestinians to get adequate food, water, shelter, etc. They got kicked out of part of their country because the UN decided that Jews needed a homeland and no country wanted to take these large numbers of Jewish refugees in (not surprisingly at all). Granted, dealing with large numbers of refugees is part of the reason other Middle Eastern countries have closed their borders to these people, but the other part is because Hamas could easily use that as an excuse to slip their members into other countries as well as gain control in places other than Palestine. Is there anything I didn't provide an answer to for what you just said? Also, I keep mentioning Hamas because, how do I put this... oh yeah, THEY are the problem, NOT the Israelis. Until Hamas is driven out of Palestine, the Palestinians will never know anything except war, destruction, and chaos. -------------
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 22:42
How so? You are suggesting that closer proximity to the issue equals more truth, but we don't let the families of murder victims decide the punishment for murders. Is suggesting that perhaps since they have a greater emotional investment in what does happen the average Israeli is not thinking as clearly about the larger situation as somebody else would really so controversial? Emotions are very deep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Controversies - There's a few of them. And something like half of the people killed so far in the current engagement have been women and children, plus the things 1800 is saying. Also 1800, you should resize your avatar. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 22:47
Tell Hamas and other terrorist groups to stop using civilians as human shields. Unfortunately, Hamas is a group of people that doesn't conform to neat little things called the Geneva Convention of any other international codes of conducting war. Their main goal is to wipe Israel off the map, and they will do whatever it takes to accomplish that, no matter what the cost, and anyone who gets in their way be damned, including civilians. And why am I not allowed to voice my own opinion? Is it simply because you disagree with me? Prove to me where I'm wrong and make me understand where you're coming from, because I don't have a reason to yet. -------------
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Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 22:57
*Reads the three issues* Issue #1: The Six-Day War started when Egypt kicked the UN out of the Sinai Peninsula and then sent 1,000 tanks and about 100,000 soldiers across Israel's border to attack them, and POWs being killed is something that's been committed in most wars throughout human history. Issue #2: This one has more merit than the previous issue, although the fact that accusations were brought by other Arabs and left-wingers makes me suspicious. Don't know enough about that incident to say much more to be honest. Issue #3: Last I checked, Israel agreed to withdraw from Gaza, and Hamas moved in to set up rockets to launch at Israeli cities. As for the white phosphorous, if it's true, then that certainly raises a lengthy ethical debate about the use of chemical weapons on the modern battlefield. That's about what I've gathered at face value. Take it or leave it as you see fit. -------------
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 23:03
You are seriously too stupid. You provided answers all right, just more made up ones. Refugees have been living there in squalor and waste since back when Egypt controlled it. When Israel took over, they didn't fix anything. Of course uneducated, starving, displaced masses voted for a party that vowed revenge for the people who put them there. If the roles were reversed, if Israel, the democracy, were lobbing missiles into the theocratic country that displaced them, the US would fund them to no end. But since there's a small contingent of terrorists (go figure, in a region that knows only poverty and oppression), and because terrorists are the new Communists, we back the country that violates UN resolutions by bombing civilians who don't even have a knife to use against soldiers. It's hilarious to know that you would have supported Britain in the Revolution.
Here's a fun lesson: when tanks and bombers decimate refugee camps with abandon, it's the attackers' fault.
You're right, we should http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v5/newsgeneral.php?id=383483 - condem the people with a http://christianparty.net/israelunresolutions.htm - history of violating resolutions.
I already proved you wrong by showing that Israel killed far more people. Then I did it again by pointing out that Israel is the one violating every UN resolution that pertains to it. Oh, and here's this gem:
That's it, you're done. As laughable and racist as your previous posts were, this seals the deal on how worthless your attempts at discourse are. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 23:08
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this thread is going down in flames.. Admin ? |
Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 23:16
Evidently, any discussion beyond an inane prog poll merits serious administrative attention: for someone might be offended! |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 23:21
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^While I agree that discussions such as these should be able to keep going naturally and take some course of direction where ever that may be since I too hate topics that actually breed decent discussion being closed while mindless garbage like another "This is about some mainstream classic prog band" thread continues to clog PA, to be fair, the OP said "I realise this is an emotive topic, and this is not intended to start a sh!tstorm on this forum,". |
Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 23:22
I'm done, but mostly because you just want to disagree with me and treat me disrespectfully rather than have an intellectual discussion. If you want to mindlessly follow what a worthless organization like the UN says (I can't think of a time in the last 25 years where they've done something that's proven to be beneficial to our country. It's all just anti-United States and anti-Israel), go ahead, but I'm through with discussing things here. You don't listen to anything I've said and you've just said "you're wrong" to every point I've made. Feel free to disagree with me, but I'll be damned if you're going to keep talking to me like I'm a moron. I also STILL don't see where or how I was racist in any of my posts. You can still attempt to point them out, but don't expect any more responses from me. -------------
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 23:26
| Estimated max life span of this thread, probably about 3 hours, lol. |
Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 23:28
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In any case, 1800iareyay has provided the most reasonable view in this thread. Of course, what he's posted is hardly a matter of controversy, at least for those that have some regard for facts. The key point, however, and it's one that I don't believe has been stated explicitly here, is that the Israeli government is basically on Washington's leash: for easily discerned political purposes, Washington uses Israel as a destabilizing factor in the Middle East. In fact, this has been stated quite plainly in high-level planning documents (now available to the public). |
Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 23:38
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: January 13 2009 at 23:43
| You know what? I apologize. I got carried away. But there's a supreme difference between voicing a thought-out opinion and coming in spewing a stance based on absolutely no facts. Especially one steeped in quasi-racist, dismissive language. You think Israel might be in the right? Fine. The situation isn't black and white and there are no easy solutions. But it's even harder when you make things up to suit a ridiculous platform. |
Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 00:12
Apparently Ahmadinejad ran his election campaign much like Pres. Bush II. He marketed himself as an everyday sort of guy, just like you and me, etc. Then when he got in office he was like "the holocaust didn't happen", and the people of Iran were like "what did he just say?" and then the ball just kept rolling further and further to the edge. edit: He was also invited to come to the Olympics but said he'd only show if all the women covered themselves up. HAHAHA.
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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 00:56
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i happened across this little snippet on Wiki...
"In the late 1990s, Gabriel and entrepreneur http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Branson - Richard Branson discussed with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela - Nelson Mandela their idea of a small, dedicated group of leaders, working objectively and without any vested personal interest to solve difficult global conflicts. On 18 July 2007, in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannesburg - Johannesburg , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa - South Africa , Nelson Mandela announced the formation of a new group, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Elders - Global Elders , in a speech he delivered on the occasion of his 89th birthday. The founding members of this group are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Tutu - Desmond Tutu , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gra%C3%A7a_Machel - Graça Machel , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kofi_Annan - Kofi Annan , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ela_Bhatt - Ela Bhatt , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro_Harlem_Brundtland - Gro Harlem Brundtland , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter - Jimmy Carter , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Zhaoxing - Li Zhaoxing , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Robinson - Mary Robinson , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Yunus - Muhammad Yunus . http://dl.groovygecko.net/anon.groovy/clients/akqa/projectamber/press/The_Elders-Press_Release.pdf - [2] The Elders will be independently funded by a group of "Founders", including Branson and Gabriel. Desmond Tutu serves as the chair of The Elders, who will use their collective skills to catalyze peaceful resolutions to long-standing conflicts, articulate new approaches to global issues that are causing or may later cause immense human suffering, and share wisdom by helping to connect voices all over the world. They will work together over the next several months to consider carefully which specific issues they will confront." wonder what their suggestions are for Israel ./ Gaza situation...
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 02:25
So far, despite strong opinions being raised & exchanged, this thread hasn't broken any boundaries/rules/regulations. Blacksword stated in his opening post he accepts this is a very emotive subject & indeed, strong emotions have been expressed - as long as such opinions are exchanged with respect & do not descend into open abuse between contributors or racism toward either side in the conflict, there's no problem here. A charge of racism has been thrown back & forth, but I see no racism - generalisation, yes, but racism, no; now this is a very fine line, so please step back from it.
Not true - threads dealing with religion or politics (or both in this case) can be by their very nature volatile; it's for this reason many forums do not allow such subjects at all - we do. It is only when threads spiral out of control or cross the guidelines we're left with no option but to intervene. -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 03:22
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^^^ Thankyou Jim. Thats an excellent post.
Here we see the problem. If this issue can generate such tension on a music forum. Imagine the hatred on the ground between the Israelis and the Palestinians. This issue is absolute dynamite, and WILL come to a very nasty end for one or both sides. It's been going on for decades, but the stakes appear to be getting higher. Hatred for Israel in the Arab/Muslim world is increasing. Israel continues to throw petrol on the flames, through their brutality. The west, the US in particular, continues to turn a blind eye to Israels behaviour, and continues to write blank cheques for her military machine. Efforts to push Israel into negotiations are merely token, by Washington, and by the likes of our arsehole Foreign Secretary David Milliband. If people are genuinely blind to the double standards at play here, then this problem will never be resolved. We often see images of death detsruction and massacre on our TV's from all over the world. In every case, the condemnation is almost always unamamous, but this is not so with with Israel. We see childrens corpes lined up on the pavement, spattered with blood. We see hungry families crying with desparation, as aid lorries are once again blocked ort turned away from the border crossings. If this was anywhere else there would be universal outrage, even if there was no actual action as such. Someone said, put yourself in the shoes of the Israelis, being targetted by the Hamas rockets. This is quite easy for many British people to do; having been bombed by the IRA in the 70's and 80's, having been blitzed by the Nazis in WWII. History has shown us, with regard to terrorism, that you MUST talk to the terrorists. This is how we achieved something resembling the fragile peace we have in Northern Ireland. Israels refusal to engage with Hamas is not going to help, and in the absence of negotiations, that leaves one option open to Israel: The total wiping out of the Palestinians, because everytime they bomb a school or hospital in Gaza, another seed of hatred is sown. For every dismembered child carried out of the rubble following an airstrike, another militant is born. The more carnage Israel unleash on the civillian population of Gaza, the greater the support for Hamas will be. If we assume that the Israeli government are not idiots, then we have to assume that their strategy is one of continuing this conflict for all time, or until they are given the right prompt to actually cull the enemy on mass; perhaps an attack from Iran or Syria; the major sponsors of the terror groups. Perhaps President Obama will take a more even hand in how he handles the ME crisis. But the pressures on him to continue the tradtional and unconditional support for Israel, will be immense, and may cost him his presidency. To make matters worse, I heard on the news this morning, that more rockets have been fored into northern Israel, from Lebanon, perhaps opening another front in the conflict. The last rocket attacks from Lebanon were attributed to Hamas, but if these are traced back to Hezbollah, then things could get alot worse before they get better. What a world! 
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 04:26
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Israel is committing 'war crimes'
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html - WSJ Article From the article... "But on June 19, 2008, Hamas and Israel commenced a six-month truce. Neither side complied perfectly. Israel refused to substantially ease the suffocating siege of Gaza imposed in June 2007. Hamas permitted sporadic rocket fire -- typically after Israel killed or seized Hamas members in the West Bank, where the truce did not apply. Either one or no Israelis were killed (reports differ) by rockets in the half year leading up to the current attack. Israel then broke the truce on Nov. 4, raiding the Gaza Strip and killing a Palestinian. Hamas retaliated with rocket fire; Israel then killed five more Palestinians. In the following days, Hamas continued rocket fire -- yet still no Israelis died. Israel cannot claim self-defense against this escalation, because it was provoked by Israel's own violation" |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 06:21
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All I'm going to say is this: If someone is a real threat to me or my family or my home... ...a "proportionate" reaction is not something I'm going to entertain. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 06:49
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Aviv Geffen stays in Berlin actually where he starts his european tour and yesterday he said: "My heart is with the Palestinians but not with Hamas - they are terrorists like El-Kaida ..." ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 06:55
| ^^^ Ironically, Hamas were democratically elected to power by the Palestinian people. That didn't need to happen. It's largely Israels fault that it did. |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 06:58
It's the old saying - one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 07:02
So what, if someone breaks into your house, not only will you kill the robbers you'll find their families? And the analogy is flawed, because in this situation you'd be the robber, living in another person's home and getting outraged when the real owner tries to get you out of it. Now, I think Hamas is a bit silly for lobbing rockets into the area they want to move back into, but then they probably realize at this point that they're never getting back in, so they settled for revenge. Maybe if Israel had bothered to clean up Gaza when they controlled it they wouldn't have fostered another generation of hate. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 07:05
Agree 100% |
Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 07:08
Maybe not a fault but with calculation ... ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 07:34
Indeed. Israel know that a two state solution will be impossible with Hamas at the helm, and I've never been convinced that Israel actually want a 'two state solution' It looks as though they want to bomb Gaza into submission, and take that strip of land for themselves. |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 07:59
But the only way that would ever work out for them is if they took it over (without all this horrifying bloodshed, although I fail to see another way they'd get it), and immediately set about improving conditions. Not trying to wipe it off the face of the Earth, the way Sharon did. Pump as much money as they can into the area, get sewage and water into the area, turn refugee camps into actual towns with real homes. And maybe, maaayyyybe, in a few generations they'll win their way to a two-state solution. People seem to think it's always going to happen in a few decades, but it's gonna take a LONG time and a lot of goodwill on Israel's behalf if they really want peace. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 08:05
| I think it would take a long, long time indeed for the people in Gaza to stop hating the Israelis - this is, to my mind, the main problem. The seeds of hate and violence have been sown, and it won't be easy at all to eradicate them. Hamas may be the worst people on the face of the earth (and I for one will never say that they are my kind of people), but there are reasons why they were DEMOCRATICALLY elected in the first place. We have a saying in Italy that goes, "he who sows the wind will reap storms".... This is exactly what is happening in that tormented part of the world. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 08:38
that won't happen anytime soon; Israeli citizens of Palestine origin are already being treated second class in Israel, although they are citizens of that state too. sad but true ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 09:49
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I tend to side with the underdog in these kind of situations and that
is the Palestinians in Gaza. Lots of stones being cast and no side is without
sin, except for the innocents on each side who get slaughtered. I'll go make that tea... ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 10:17
The Arabs and the Jews, boy..too much for me..
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 10:29
| It's a mistake to regard these acts as resulting predominantly from cultural tensions, i.e. hostile relations between some Jews and some Muslims; rather these antagonisms are cynically exploited by those in power, which effectively means Washington, although Western Europe and Israel itself have certain interests as well. An illuminating work on these matters is Perilous Power by Noam Chomsky and Gilbert Achcar. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 10:39
It's also reciprocal. http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gD-QcI_C-CrcqfSZBh6A5_e514Zw - http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gD-QcI_C-CrcqfSZBh6A5_e514Zw I certainly hope Obama and his administration has more of a spine than Bush and his. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 10:39
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^Winterlight, you mention Chomsky... do you held his opinions in high regard? A man that practically denied the Cambodian holocaust just because it was done by a left-wing (well, LEFT-wing) government?
I hope this thread doesn't get deleted. It's a good read. You won't change anything no matter how hard you fight and accuse each other of not being the ultimate open-minded person in PA, but it makes for a good change of material after the extremely (this week at least) boring prog-lounge....
I would also love to read an opinion in how to have to deal with garbage like Hamas.... I've been hearing bullsh*t like that all my life, in Ecuador, where there's a neighboring criminal guerrilla (FARC - you westerners don't have time for Southamerica of course)... When they kill innocents and kidnap innocents, it's just "bad". When one of their leaders is killed, it's a "crime".
Innocents have to fall in all battles, haven't they? If the Palestinians are so fond of creating chaos and making life for Israelis an inferno, well... better expect some less-than-pink consequences... -------------
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 10:41
it is more complicated than that even. governments in Arab states stoke the conflict too, the reason being that with a foe from outside the opposition inside is being calmed down ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 10:59
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:01
It's not so much that Israel want to live in peace that's the problem. It's that they want to live in peace on a bit of land that they really never had any right to, and, to do that, they essentially kicked out the locals to do so. Their own bloody fault, in that respect. Anyway, as I can see it, the views you can take on it basically fall down to A) whether or not Israel is using disproportionate force and B) whether or not Israel has any right to be there now Personally, I think Israel is now established. It shouldn't have been, but it is, and that makes the actions of Hamas unacceptable. I have to admit I'm a bit sceptical about the civilian death figures the media keep throwing in front of us, particularly as, I suspect, there's frequently no way of telling whether someone was a civilian, a member of Hamas. Even when you can decide, there's often little way of telling whether or not Hamas members were the primary target or the civilians were hit independently. |
Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:03
Yes, of course, any power structure that can exploit the situation probably will exploit it, and that includes so-called Arab states. That it's "complicated" is plainly false: for neither you nor I have mentioned anything beyond the transparent. |
Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:10
There's nothing "reciprocal" about the relationship between the world's strongest military power and its client state. Israel votes according to Washington's orders; sometimes, yes, it does stray somewhat from the American plan, but than Washington cuts funding, etc. In any case, there's no reason for optimism regarding Obama and US policy for the Middle East: he's likely to sustain the policy that has been effective since the the late 1960s. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:10
lol, I did not say it was complicated per se, I merely mentioned it was more complicated than so-far stated ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:12
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:20
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T, Chomksy is definitely NOT one of those left-wingers you mention; his works are well worth reading. and I have no idea where you get the idea he is belittling the terrors of the Cambodian regime from. believe me, this would be very untypical for Chomsky ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:23
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I don't think this is as much of a "game" as people have been telling me for years. I don't know much aside from what I've seen in the news and history class, but there seems to be an innate grasp of religion throughout the Middle East, and with two sides having beliefs that directly contradict each other, I find it hard to blame it solely on other nations, politics, or even on their own leaders. It's been said - this is more complicated than a power game. ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:25
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^I've always wanted to pick one of his books but I've felt less than happy to do so for his political views which I've always thought are too friendly with dictators (do you remember how Hugo chavez reccomended his book in the UN forum a few months ago? ). But as with everything, I'll end up reading him and making my own decision. I hope it's like you say. -------------
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:33
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Chomsky is ANYTHING but friendly with dictators; I don't know where you get that idea from. and though Hugo Chavez is a shady figure and I don't trust him at all, some of what he says has more than just a grain of truth in it. he is not automatically wrong just because he is a communist
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:37
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:41
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^I'm sure that on one part of your sentence you're right Baldjean (the first-half)... On Chavez, please. What leaks through to Europe is 1% of the amount of idiocy and chaos that he has created. Even though, as you say, there may be a grain (emphasis on grain) of truth in his words.... Especially aided by the stupidities of W's government.
Without W, Chavezs wouldn't have a reason to bark. And without the high prices of oil, he would've been history long ago.
But please go back to Israel and Palestina. One day when CNN decides that the Middle east is not the only thing in the world that matters, people from all over the world will know more about what goes on in other areas. For now, let's remain focused in there. -------------
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Posted By: WinterLight
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:55
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 14 2009 at 13:54
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