King Crimson Biography errors - loads of them!
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Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Report errors & omissions here
Forum Description: Seen a mistake in a band bio etc then please tell us
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55787
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Topic: King Crimson Biography errors - loads of them!
Posted By: John McIntyre
Subject: King Crimson Biography errors - loads of them!
Date Posted: February 21 2009 at 11:31
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I recently looked at the KC biography, and there are numerous errors and punctuation errors - for example...
1) It's Ian McDonald, NOT Ian MacDonald - this error occurs EVERY time his name is mentioned,
2) It's Boz Burrell, NOT Boz Burrelll - too many ells. Again, this occurs every time he's mentioned,
3) Fripp had nothing at all to do with Brain's "Nightmares in Red". Before GGF, the Giles Brothers were in a manufactured band called Trendsetters Inc. Whilst with them, toward the end of the band's life, they recorded and released "Nightmares in Red" under the pseudonym Brain. Fripp had nothing to do with it at all.
4) The author repeatedly refers to KC as being an "Art Rock" band. RUBBISH - they were PROG.
Also, there are punctuation mistakes all over the place.
It would be simpler if I copied the text out, added notes/corrections, then posted it back to someone, Is this possible?
Trapper John McIntyre ------------- I am one of only about 1,800 people in the world with an original M400 Mellotron! |
Replies:
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 21 2009 at 12:14
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I bet you can. Nice to have you checking out the things. Not too sure which admin to ask, but I suspect they'll be along soon.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: February 21 2009 at 12:30
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A note for #4: the bio was written when King Crimson was in a genre called "Art Rock" (now that genre was split in three sections: Heavy, Eclectic and Crossover). So the biographer could have been influenced by the term used here, on PA. Moreover, there have been numerous discussion about the relation between Art Rock and Prog Rock. Anyway though, Art Rock music catalogued here is acknolwedged as prog rock, so there's no mistake. "Rubbish" is too strong as a word. Except this and #3, the rest are spelling mistakes, easy to correct.  ------------- 
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Posted By: John McIntyre
Date Posted: February 21 2009 at 17:30
If the biographer was influenced by PA in describing Crimson as being 'Art-Rock', then it's PA that have got it wrong. This particular biography has been the only one to hang the art-rock label on KC, whereas everywhere else describe them as (and I'm para-phasing here) "Rock with Jazz, Classical and Folk influences." I call that Prog.
A consensus of opinion by discussion does not create a fact. A policy - maybe, but not a fact. I concede that a few aspects of King Crimson (particularly some of Robert Fripp's side-projects) could be construed as being "Art-Rock", but Crimson's main body (musically) heads off towards Hard Rock, even Heavy. I also concede that it can be difficult to adequately DEFINE a genre. However, I don't consider Crinson to be Art-Rock, but hard-core Prog. That's an opinion, hence the RUBBISH bit.
Since I posted my original message, I have actually made a copy of the biog and started working my way through it. I'm NOT bothering with the Crimson from 1982, as it's not the era of my expertise. I also said that the errors quoted on my original message were "...for example..." There are more - a lot more, particularly when relating to the dates of events. As there are so many, I repeat my original offer - I will correct the text, up to the first dissolution of KC, AND I would like to submit it, either to some authority within PA, or, ideally, the original author. I have experience in this field - check out...
http://www.tron-is-king.org.uk/index.php?ID=12&CATEGORY=3-Data%20Centre - http://www.tron-is-king.org.uk/index.php?ID=12&CATEGORY=3-Data%20Centre - it's all my own work!
All I need is an address to send it. Interested?
Trapper John McIntyre, Edinburgh, Scotland ------------- I am one of only about 1,800 people in the world with an original M400 Mellotron! |
Ricochet wrote:Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: February 21 2009 at 22:37
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You appear to think that art rock is a lesser form of prog, but I have always seen them used interchangeably most of the time, and I think the ITCOTCK liner notes even mention the term. There is the debate of whether or not prog is in fact a subgenre of art rock, but that is boring and I won't get into it, since most people view the terms as equal. But it should probably be removed anyway, since the term as a subgenre tag is defunct. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: February 22 2009 at 00:58
I'll I'm saying is that King Crimson have a history of genre-placement. They were initially thrown in Symphonic, and when they were moved to Art Rock, it was a massive scandal (wonder why?). Art Rock was a category, with roughly the same characteristics Eclectic has right now.
Again, I don't think Art Rock and Prog Rock are different planets. True, a part of the Art Rock movement, like the one lead by David Bowie and such, isn't the exact Art Rock we emphasize on right here - nevertheless, Art Rock is, at least, a satellite of Prog Rock (if not in an even more...intimate relation). The Hard Rock/Heavy part about King Crimson is a bit strict, I as a fan recognize a plethora of styles, phases, etc., I wonder why a biographer wouldn't. The heavy shlager in ITCOTKC or the metal-potent Red are not reasons to disregard a jazz-rock album like Lizard, combined with Islands as far as experimentation goes. Symphonic is a characteristic itself, in several albums. Contrary to bands like Genesis and Yes, we acknowledge Crimson's 80s art-pop-funk-whatever period, or even the new stuff in the 90s, which range from heavy prog to experimental jam, electro-fusion, etc.
Your help adressing those errors is most appreciated. Just contact one of the Admins and/or the author himself. -------------
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Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: February 22 2009 at 05:11
Or the Errors & Omissions Team.  Post it here John (or PM me) and I'll be happy to upload it. That's what we are for. Thanks!------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: February 22 2009 at 05:25
Sorry.  -------------
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Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: February 22 2009 at 05:32
How could you have forgotten about us Rico! I feel redundant...    ------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: February 22 2009 at 06:01
I haven't seen you in a while, that's all. -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 22 2009 at 08:19
I'm also one of those who view art rock and prog rock as synonymous. Send me to the re-education camp.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 22 2009 at 08:38
"Art Rock" was used as a synonym for "Prog Rock" frequently in the 70s. Unfortunately today there are numerous meanings of that phrase. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_rock - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_rock I largely agree, and I'd put King Crimson not too close to the stylistic core of the Prog Rock movement, which would be Symphonic Prog Rock (Yes/Genesis on their key albums). KC were much too avant-garde for that narrow style. I'd say that either "Art Rock" or "Eclectic Prog" are better, because they're broader and less confining. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 03:18
| Sorry, I just noticed this thread. I've asked Vibrationbaby, who wrote the excellent biography, to have a look. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 05:34
Good thing we had the name changed, so we are not anymore in charge of a second-division subgenre ... Unfortunately, some people really have no idea of how to interact in a community.
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 10:25
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I was just notified by the powers that might be. I more or less wrote that off the top of my head in about four or five installments whenever I had time using references for dates and other miscelaneous details . I`ll have a look at it again today ( when I have time ) . As for the art vs prog they are one in the same to me. I don`t get too excited about all these genre labels so I guess you guys argue that one out. The typos can easily be corrected. I don`t use spell check . The Burell and MacDonald errors were typos ( at least I was consistent with the "McDonald" error ). I went over the bio briefly and I can`t see where I mentioned Brain`s " Nightmares In Red ". I think I even edited something about this when I was preparing the initial draft.I think the best thing to do here is for me to go through it with a fine comb and find the typos and get Bob ( Easy Livin ) to correct them. Then let everyone decide what we`re going to call Crimson artrock, progrock or whatever  ( personally I think they`re beyond category ). Then come up with a list of errors that I might have made and I`ll take the time to make the necessary corrections because I think if we get too many people taking away and putting in we`ll have a case of too many cooks in the kitchen. Just to maintain consistency in the writing style ( not that I have any style ) I think it best that I correct my own mistakes.Finally, in light of the developments since I wrote that a couple of years ago in the KC camp, I was actually planning to update it a wee bit anyway correcting the typos at the same time so if you guys want to argue out the errors I`ll take the time to set everything straight and everything will be a happy again in Crimsonland. Cheers, Ian ------------- |
Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 15:37
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Ian, I was sent an updated bio by John McIntyre and uploaded it. Sorry for not notifying you.
------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: John McIntyre
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 18:55
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Ian/Vibrationbaby.
As it was me that stated there were errors in your biog of KC, and I made an attempt to correct them, feel free to direct any bile towards me.
Irrespective of the Art/Prog Rock description, all I tried to do was amend the facts. This took the form of correcting spelling errors (e.g. McDonald - MacDonald) and punctuation. I deliberately avoided any rewrites - I didn't want to change the sense or style of the original piece - I don't have any right to do that.
I would have thought that the hierarchy at PA would have sought you out (as the original biog writer) to let you see the "alleged" corrections of some young whippersnapper (young, my a**e, I'm 55!) before they went up on the site.
A good source of KC info is Sid Smith's "In the Court of King Crimson". This clarifies the story behind the Brain single. (Brain was a temporary name for Trendsetters Inc, who had the Giles Brothers in their ranks BEFORE Giles, Giles & Fripp formed) ------------- I am one of only about 1,800 people in the world with an original M400 Mellotron! |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 08:23
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I hear that Robert Fripp is still not happy with being described as prog. I haven't heard what he thinks of the other epithets that have been tossed his way after the "rescind all audio/video" order.
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 10:28
Just want to make it clear that the first I heard about this was yesterday morning through a PM otherwise I would have responded earlier. Although this appeared as a blog it was actually written for the KC entry in the archives which is where the finished version now resides. I `ve made arrangements to update it a bit and correct the typos which I was aware of and had already decided to update it as I mentioned earlier when time permitted. I still don`t know where you`re coming from regarding the Brain single . I didn`t even mention it at all because I felt it was irrelevant. I think I used the term artrock for the very reason that Fripp doesn`t care for the term progrock as Debrewguy points out above. I mean I had to call it something. I`ll take a look at it and try and come up with something that everyone can live with.As for the Sid Smith book I think I wrote the bio before his book came out or I was certainly unaware of the book at the time. I`ve tried to get a hold of a copy but it`s a rare bird. Something that I would have definitely consulted had it been available to me when I agreed to write the bio. The references I did use came from magazines, liner notes record guides and personal experience over the years ( I`ve also seen them 7 times ). I`ll wait until monday to make the corrections so anyone who has any further corrections or suggestions to improve the bio can have their say. Cheers, Ian ------------- |
Posted By: John McIntyre
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 16:35
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Ian - V'baby
I'll send you a PM about my actions. It would be inappropriate and rather verbose if I did it here.
Oh, Debrewguy - I've also heard that Fripp doesn't regard his/Crimson's output as 'Prog' either, though I've no idea if he places it in ANY genre. He also said (probably in the same outburst) that "...prog finished in 1973..." Now THAT'S the making of the start of a new thread somewhere!!!
Trapper John McIntyre ------------- I am one of only about 1,800 people in the world with an original M400 Mellotron! |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: April 22 2009 at 09:53
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I`ve made updates to the KC bio to fix the anbiguities of prog and art rock as well as rewriting the ending. Just disregard the last sentence. Bob ( Easy Livin ) will remove it as I do not have the capacity to do it myself along with acouple of other minor typos. For those reading this after Bob made the deletion, the last paragraph should read as such : "Once again, the future becomes a most devious proposition as the King Crimson beast goes into hibernation awaiting the divine intervention of..........The Crimson King. " End ( whenever the freak that`s going to be) ------------- |