No more ghost-edits
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=58677
Printed Date: June 11 2025 at 17:57
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: No more ghost-edits
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Subject: No more ghost-edits
Date Posted: June 10 2009 at 23:02
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Lately I have noticed more edits by the admins, and while some of them struck me as unnecessarily heavy-handed, this is not the place to complain about their contents. Rather, I am taking issue with their form: editing a post while leaving no trace that it was ever edited, referred to as ghost-editing for brevity. On every single forum I have ever been on or heard of, any ghost-edits would be considered unacceptable, yet it is common practice here. Why? I know that there's no technical reason because I've seen Easy Livin tag his edits, so props to you EL. The problem, of course, is not that I think the admins are abusing their power, but everybody should be striving for transparency and it's not good for the potention to exist. For example, you have no idea whether or not the parentheses were originally part of my subject or if someone decided it would be funny to ghost-edit my thread on ghost-editing. Now, you can guess that I probably did write it, but if it disappears then there is no record of it ever existing besides our memories. It also hinders communication. For example, a thread of mine recently was edited, and while I'm not outraged, I would like to ask the responsible admin about apparent discrepencies in their policies, but I can't because I have no idea who did it. To close this rambling post, mailto:M@x - M@x should disable ghost-editing. There is never a good reason to ghost-edit and it's about time we were brought in line with the rest of the internet. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Replies:
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 06:08
| Another forum I know (not music-based) allows the Admins to edit posts, but - just like other members - they have to explain why they did so, and the explanation appears at the bottom of the post together with the Admin's name and the edit date. |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 06:22
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I've always seen "Admin Notes" or edit mentions when they intervened. I'm referring to posts, of course. About that thread title that was modified, shouldn't it mean that the opening post of the thread is modified per se, thus getting the "edit mention"? ------------- 
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 07:38
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It's always been my experience that whenever a post is edited, the date/time/author of the edit shows at the foot of the post; now I'm not saying 'ghost editing' cannot be done, I'm just saying if it's possible, I for one do not know how to do it. In a vast majority of cases if an Admin chooses to edit a post, the reason would be in the edit or in a subsequent post.
Henry - if you believe you have been unfairly ghost edited, please let me know the location of the posts concerned. [edit] 
Also - are you referring to posts within a thread, or the thread title itself??? |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 10:44
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^ I just added an extra ? to Jim's post. Notice how my edit is automatically recorded.
There's no such thing as ghosts. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 13:05
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I've just removed "So" from Henry Plainview's opening post and it shows quite clearly that it has been edited. So, I am confused. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 13:07
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If you are referring to me editing a "swear" word from a thread title, well lets put it this way: If I notify you that I have changed it then you are on a warning. If I edit a title then it should be obvious why!  Best for me to just tut, shake my head, edit and slip back into the netherworld. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 13:28
Yep! But you are a *sweetheart* and furthermore *I wuv U!* *you are* completely free of *child support payments* ....thats what I think anyway! *mole* holes!!!!
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Tony R wrote:Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 13:47
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I don't think it shows up when you edit the title, does it?
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 13:48
It does. (Tony proved on this topic). Editing the title means you edit the first post, means same rules apply. -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 13:52
pwned ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 13:53
I don't know ... by the way, your current signature is 'the best signature ever' ... hilarious. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 13:54
 ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 15:42
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No, it doesnt show up when you edit the title of a thread. That's the only time as far as I know. @Snow Dog, I never knew you cared...  |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 16:16
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I freely admit I edit thread titles for spelling, punctuation and (if at all possible) grammar.
Really, people should at least check their thread titles on a spell checker before opening a thread for all to see. Don't think of me as being heavy handed - just as a vigilant spell-checker.
If that's a problem...
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 11 2009 at 16:35
Neither did I!
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 07 2009 at 16:50
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My Phil Collins thread got edited, but no note was made at the bottom of my initial post. What gives?
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 07 2009 at 16:56
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The (with Genesis) was added presumably? Probably so that it will be seen to fit in to "Prog Polls" section. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 07 2009 at 17:05
Yes, but Phil Collins is the drummer for Genesis, a prog band in the database. If I made a poll involving the vocals of Trevor Rabin in Yes (who is not in PA as a solo artist but is a guitarist and vocalist for Yes), would someone have to edit my title to "Trevor Rabin (with Yes)!" ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 07 2009 at 17:08
Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. Besides the content of the poll is about Genesis songs, whatever the title. Make a stand! Re-edit it! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Passionist
Date Posted: July 07 2009 at 17:08
I might be on the wrong tracks here, but to a certain degree I personally understood his point as such: There's always the tag at the end of the first post after the topic has been updated:
And if a certain post is updated/edited, it's in that exact post. But. A lot of people, me included, might never realise why such an action is performed. Perhaps and note like "Corrected spelling" or "edited due to use of inappropriate language" would be in its place at times. Then we'd surely know, that it's been edited, and we'd even importantly know why it's been edited. Now i noticed the topic had been edited, and learnt that there used to be a word "so" there. Of course bringing this up might raise objections, but it would also stop people like me from wondering if the thread used to be something completely else, or if the first post itself was full of cursewords etc. because as you see in my quote, the EDIT-message doesn't really differ wherther it's the topic or the post itself. Just you know, to take off the gestapo ways. We're not allowed to wear black trench coats, but we're never told why not. J/K of course, but this is how i understood his point, and I think it is a valid point to at least consider. -Tuomas-- |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 07 2009 at 17:14
I'm aware I can do that, but I am miffed that someone went behind my back and just changed the title of my thread (if you read the original post, the title as it was was part of the little "joke"). I'm a member in good standing here- if an admin has a problem with my thread title (which I can't understand why), I would at least like to be notified. I concede this is small issue, but I find it rather disrespectful (particularly since I was not violating any rule). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 07 2009 at 17:18
I can only say again that I agree with you, and I understand it was part of your joke. Maybe you (we?) should find out who actually did it, so the issue can be discussed man to man? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: July 07 2009 at 17:26
Eh, I'll just try it your way. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 07 2009 at 17:27
Which? They were both my way. EDIT: Ok...I know which.  EDIT 2: Someone has changed it back again.
 ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 11:01
| This "issue" seems to be cropping up again.... |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 12:07
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In what way? Please quote specifics when highlighting an issue, generalisations do not allow investigation or explanation.
Thanks.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 12:25
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Bob, this thread in particular is the current thread at issue. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62336 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62336 . The title of the thread was edited, presumably by an administrator, but without a message to the original poster, or leaving an "edited by xxx" message in the original post. ------------- 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 12:34
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^ what was the original title? ------------- What? |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 12:37
The Power and the Glory |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 12:38
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 12:43
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ok ------------- What? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 12:48
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It's not that I mind the edits themselves in principal, but the way they are conducted, which is to say, secretly and seemingly without any good reason. The latest thread was: The Power and the Glory later it got changed to The Power & the Glory (GG) I changed it back, and now it's The Power and the Glory (Gentle Giant) Another time I had a Phil Collins poll about his vocal duties with Genesis during the Gabriel-era, and that thread title must have changed like three or four times, again, with no notification or reason given. In another thread, I suggested this:
And as an example of how this issue can be resolved:
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 13:09
First I wanted to get the tenor of your (collective) concern. You (collective) know you're doing it, I just wanted to see if anyone cared. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 13:33
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Thread titles sometimes get changed to try to make it clearer for other members what they are about. Often, a news thread for example will simply show the band name. It looks much better on the home page if it is shown as a headline.
In the case of "The power and the glory", many members may not know that it is about an album by Gentle Giant. Adding "Gentle Giant" to the thread name simply helps them to judge whether or not they are interested in it. What is the problem with adding such info to a thread title? With all the polls now being created, surely it is best to help people find the ones they might want to view.
As an aside, the underlying tone of some posts in this thread is disappointing and demotivating. Personally, I don't mind constructive criticism but I find the tone here to sometimes be less than friendly.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 13:40
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Oi! Less of the "You (collective)"! ... It's not me. I only correct spelling errors in titles. ------------- What? |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 13:45
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I don't believe that there is a problem with the change to the title so much, as the fact that the title was changed without a message to the original poster, or with the note that the post was edited by administrator x. If the post says that the post was edited by Easy Livin or Dean, the poster can at least respond to that administrator with their point of view for why they posted what they did. When the thread is "ghost edited", there is noone for the poster to respond to. I believe that at least in this instance the lack of communication from the editor is why some forum members are upset. -------------
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 13:50
I'm not interested in who is doing it or has done it in the past. Merely that future edits be identified. Bob: the problem lies not with the content of the edit, but the anonymity of the action. If the correction of the thread title is done to be helpful, a simple identification of who is doing the edit and why is all that is being asked here, I think. And I'm sorry if you don't care for my tone, but I detected a certain amount of snarkiness in your initial reply, to be quite honest. Rob is not some n00b off the street - he's a respected collaborator on here; the least that could be done when editing his titles is to inform of it, though to be honest I don't see why his original title was really in need of correction, your explanation notwithstanding. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 13:55
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In Epignosis case it seems he did object to the change, as he says he changed it back. It seems he did not want people to know from the title that the thread was about Gentle Giant.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 14:00
The original change did not say "Gentle Giant." It said "The Power & the Glory (GG)," which as far as I can tell, doesn't help new folks navigate any better either. I really am only asking to be notified of changes to thread titles or posts. Just a short note- could be a quick post in the thread really. I don't think the anonymity is necessary, and frankly, I think it's a tad sinister. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 14:27
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This all strikes me like a pedantic nanny going around tidying up something that wasn't "wrong" in the first place, but more to her/his liking.
The only thing this does is make topic creators resentful and think admins treat them like babies. (In cases like these recent ones. If a newbie comes in and just makes an 100% off-topic title, then change it and tell him or something). ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 15:40
I thought it was pretty clear it was about Gentle Giant when he named it "The Power and the Glory". If somebody doesn't know that, there are any number of places one could discover that fact, including the thread itself. Rob should not be obligated to make sure that everything he says is completely clear to somebody who just stumbled off the Miley Cyrus forums because if somebody who has never heard of Gentle Giant before, isn't it his loss that nobody read his thread, not yours? ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 15:49
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There's certainly nothing sinister about our actions. The admin team are first and foremost members like everyone else, despite some of the implications made in this thread, our only motivation is the good of the site.
This thread was originally about posts being edited. If a post is edited, the system automatically adds a notation to that effect, telling you who edited it. If a title is edited it does not do that. Personally, I really don't understand why an enhancement to a thread title to assist other members is such a big deal. I don't understand why, in the case of the "Power and the glory" thread, adding that it is about Gentle Giant is not seen as helping our members. Is there a general feeling that in the case of the P&TG thread, it was better that the thread title did not mention Gentle Giant? This is fundamental to identifying whether the objection is actually to titles changing, or whether is is to the notification of the change.
I am trying to understand whether there is general acceptance that the better the thread title, the more helpful it is to the members.
The over-riding challenge the admin team face is managing our time. Of course we would like to do lots more, but like everyone else, we have real lives too. People demand that we do this or do that, but at the end of the day, we have to do as much as we can within our own time constraints.
Getting back to the point here, I perceive than a few people are concerned about members not being advised when thread titles are changed. What we often find when we do tell people what we have done is that they think they are being told off. A low key approach seems to work best for the vast majority. Once again, we can't win though. If we post a message in the thread saying we have changed the title, it looks like we are calling out the thread starter. If we send a PM, the others posting in this thread to object to the thread starter not being advised will still not know that we have advised them.
I am now unclear about whether there is an acceptance that thread titles can sometimes be improved to help the membership as a whole. There is of course a limitation on the space available in the title, but can someone explain why they do not want the members to get the best possible indication from the title as to what the thread is about? Or is there now acceptance by most that thread titles can sometimes be more helpful than the one they are given at birth.
Finally, I really do find it soul destroying when derogatory remarks are made about the admin team as part of the responses. I'll be happy to continue this discussion with those who post in a friendly way (RF4 etc.), but will avoid posts which are hurtful or accusatory.
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 15:59
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This isn't the only case of ghost editing. I also had my poll edited without my consent just recently, and it wasn't the first time. http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62282 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62282 That's the thread. It was changed from "Your Favorite?" to "Your Favorite of my favourite bands". When I saw the edit, I changed it back immediately. 1. That's not what I'm saying in my first post at all. 2. It doesn't even assist anyone who would take an extra 2 seconds of their time to click the poll to see which bands are included (clearly me asking "your favorite" entails a list of bands and that a person chooses their favorite of the ones listed. What really bugs me is that the changes aren't for the good of the forum at all---the only case I could see for admin editing is if someone is clearly violating the rules. If our own polls suffer because someone doesn't know that the Power and the Glory is an album by Gentle Giant, then should those people even be voting in the first place? And it only takes another 2 seconds to click the poll and see what Robert or anyone else is talking about. Not only that, but I have never been notified. If I had been, that would be a totally different story. ------------- 
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:04
As Bob said though, the change that was made was not one that was a sinister change the way that you are making it out to be. Clearly, you should have come up with a more creative title than "Your Favorite".  The admin who edited the title was only trying to help. Of course in this instance, the help resulted in an incorrect title.
As far as the being notified, according to Bob's post, when an admin edits a title it does not automatically provide the message that it was edited, like it does when an admin edits a post. Honestly, there are far more interesting things and important things in the world to have a coronary over other than an admin trying to make a thread title be more relevant. -------------
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:09
Oh, I know it's not sinister--nor am I making it out to be sinister (it's not like they changed the title to "Your Favorite of an Arsehole's Favorites" or something. I just think it's frustrating to have your post edited for no particularly good reason and without the little message showing up in the post (or at least some sort of notification as to why my post was edited). Plus, I echo Drew's sentiments exactly:
"This all strikes me like a pedantic nanny going around tidying up
something that wasn't "wrong" in the first place, but more to her/his
liking. The only thing this does is make topic creators resentful
and think admins treat them like babies. (In cases like these recent
ones. If a newbie comes in and just makes an 100% off-topic title, then
change it and tell him or something)." What's the point anyway? -------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:14
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We already discussed one reason for making the change that was made to Rob's title yesterday in the SR, so I am not going to repeat that discussion. Another reason why that change was useful is for when forum users do searches in the forums. Either they remember seeing a Gentle Giant thread, or they want to create a Gentle Giant thread. If that person does a search on Gentle Giant, Rob's thread isn't going to come up. With the current title, it will come up in a search. (Yes, I realize the original title change to GG would not have helped with the search function, but the current thread title is far better for site and user purposes). Maybe it will prevent one newbie from re-posting a "favorite Gentle Giant song from the Power and the Glory" poll. Not likely, but maybe. -------------
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:20
I can understand that with Robert's thread, but what about ones where that function doesn't make any difference anyway? (like the one I posted, or other polls with more than several bands in them) -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:27
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It isn't that huge of a deal. If the answer is no, fine. By the way, people are assuming I meant the secondary definition of sinister, where in fact I meant the first- ominous or baleful. I am not insinuating that Bob, Dean, et al are evil or wicked. I am saying that this situation indicates a power that runs unchecked (theoretically, someone can change a thread title to "rushfan4 is a Moron" and no one would know who did it). Remember, when a thread title is changed without an admin saying he changed it, it looks like those are the OP's words. On more than one occasion a thread title was changed to something that was not more helpful than the original (and in Alex's case, just plain inaccurate). But anyway, you see I have not changed my poll's title back to the original because it was explained to me (elsewhere and after the fact by non-admins) that having the band name would be helpful for the search engine and artist page. For the fifth time, I don't mind such edits that improve the functionality of the site- I would just like a friendly post or something saying "Hi, I changed your thread title so it pops up in the search engine." That would take all of ten seconds. But again, if the answer is no, no big deal. I certainly won't lose sleep over such a minor annoyance. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:28
Take it for what it is worth, but I'm sure that the admin that changed your thread title was trying to clarify that you were providing a list of favorite bands, versus providing a list of favorite vegetables. In your opening post you say that these are some of your favorite bands that you have been listening to recently, so a more appropriate title change may have referenced that these were recent listened to bands, versus overall favorite bands. I'm not saying that the change was necessary, but I also don't think it is a big deal that a change to the title was made. Certainly would have been worse if the title had been changed pursuant to your previous post or if it had been changed to "Rushfan4 is a moron".  -------------
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 17:53
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: October 27 2009 at 21:19
I'm not accusing you of anything, and the point is why should you change Rob's thread? As the person making the change to someone else, the burden of proof is on you. I don't think adding Gentle Giant is any better or worse because anybody who knows about Gentle Giant will recognize it, and someone who doesn't isn't going to vote in the poll anyway. As for reasons to want it as intended, The Power and the Glory is snappier and shorter, making the forum easier to browse for the 99% of us who are aware of famous bands' album titles.
And I don't see why adding unnecessary words is a good use of your time. You could, for example, be removing the blatant discussion of illegal substances in the Your Vices thread.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 28 2009 at 03:44
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Thanks for the constructive discussion guys, I've no more to add just now.
As far as the discussion of illegal substances is concerned, absolutely. This is where our collaborators have a special responsibility. There has not been one report of that thread to the admin team via the report button.
(Edit - and having just visited it, it looks OK)
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 28 2009 at 03:45
------------- What? |