The anti-fanboys
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Topic: The anti-fanboys
Posted By: friso
Subject: The anti-fanboys
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 10:28
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Sometimes when I'm busy reading reviews of album-pages or specific users my attention gets drawn to one and two star series. Some people hate everything Peter Hammelish and they are willing to listen to the whole VdGG discography and rate in one or two stars because of the 'awful vocals'.
Some people just don't like some bands, but is it justified to rate a record low because it isn't your style or your kind of music or you don't know what to do with it? Opinions? |
Replies:
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 10:34
It is justified. Those who write a lot of reviews are very helpful in the sense that you can get a feel for what they like and don't like, and if you happen to know a particular reviewer with whom you have a lot in common taste-wise, the fact they rate a band poorly might steer you away from the band. It's important that they rate at least a few albums so you are assured they just don't like the band at all, rather than the case of one dud album, perhaps. But I can see the other side as well. For example, there are a few albums I absolutely detest and would give 1 star to, but I know others think highly of the album. I recognize the band just isn't my cup of tea, and I wouldn't bother to write the negative review, as I don't think there would be any value-added in writing my opinion down - I couldn't write anything that I think would be helpful. It boils down to quality of reviews, as usual. |
kingfriso wrote:Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 10:37
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I try to balance taste and my sense of overall quality. I'm not going to give anything 1 star just because I don't like it. And I try not to give 5 stars just because it's my style. But personal prefence is going to enter into every single review, and that's as it should be.
BTW, I hate Hammill's vocals, and don't think I could listen through a VdGG record enough times to give it a fair rating. I love Matthew Parmenter's vocals however, which are very influenced by Hammill. So you never can tell. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: The Sleepwalker
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 11:17
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It depends on whether you appreciate or don't appreciate the artist you dislike/hate. I can see why people give VDGG low ratings, because the music is very hard to understand and for many people is too much (Peter's vocal style, the dissonant instrumental parts etc.). I, for example, don't like Yes. I like a few of their songs, but overall I really can't get into them. I'm not going to rate all their albums one or two stars, because I do appreciate them as talented musicians and I know their music is unique and extraordinary, but it just is not for me. Like others already said, in the end a review is based on a opinion, and it should be. What you said in the original post about people listening to the whole VDGG discography to rate all albums one star because of PH's vocals seems kind of pathetic to me... but in the end it won't do the average rating of the album much harm. I like the term Anti-fanboy by the way... What's worse, people rating all albums of their favorite band five stars or people rating all albums of their least favorite band one star?
------------- 
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 11:37
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I'm anti-everything.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 11:59
| I find it ironic that those people spend hard earned money on albums just to give them a poor review |
Posted By: The Sleepwalker
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 12:10
They'll probably just download an album I think, or they might even review/rate an album only knowing one or two songs from it. -------------
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Posted By: Nuke
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 12:27
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I think we ought to drop the pretense that a rating indicates quality. You've got scales being tipped by fanboys, antifanboys, people who just don't get it, and people who are jaded from hearing too much that is similar to it. It's not about looking at the collective mean rating, it is about reading the reviews, especially the reviews that are from people you trust (aka they have similar taste), and deciding based on that. It's interesting to see what people who hate a band have to say about them, and as long as you don't attach importance to the number it is helpful too.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Seabury">  
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Posted By: friso
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 12:35
I don't think that a downloaded album gets a fair chance. If you don't have the cd (or in my case vinyl) it's less of a thrill from the beginning. What about the artwork, the complete concept of music, art and lyrics? Furthermore mp3 might sound less good and mp3players with headphones don't provide the space music (or sound in general) needs to develop. But that's another story... |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 12:43
------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 12:57
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 13:01
I don't like it when people are overly negative and spend a good deal of their time/reviews/posts to tell others what they *don't* like about a particular album or band. Often they simply can't understand why so many people have a totally different opinion. Having said that I don't like that ... I think it should be tolerated as long as it's not insulting or hurtful. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 13:02
It could also be that they used to like the album but now have changed mind, or borrowed it from a friend/heard it at the friend's house, grew up with their parents listening to it et cetera. You know, there's other reasons for disliking a classic album than having an axe to grind or just being a big blue meanie who thinks everything sucks. Okay, that's sometimes the case I'll admit that much, but hey, this is rock'n'roll, man... it's supposed to be all about not holding anything sacred and thinking outside the box, emphasis on the last thing when we're dealing with the progressive kind. I think http://www.jimdero.com/KillYourIdols/Idolsforeword.htm - this essay by music reviewer Jim Derogatis says it better than I can. 
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Lionheart
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 13:29
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"Some people just don't like some bands, but is it justified to rate a record low because it isn't your style or your kind of music or you don't know what to do with it?" Is it fair? Probably not. But lots of critics (who actually make a living at it) have been operating this way for years. Any "art criticism" should be taken with a grain of salt, for the most part.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 13:57
"He’s in his early twenties, and his life is already over. In fact, it never even began, at least not in terms of experiencing great art made in the moment—his moment, instead of his parents" That's so true ...  This is why the link in my sig leads to a chart page of the best albums of this year. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 14:42
I agree. This happened a lot when I hung around jazz musicians who can be very critical. Not all of them of course but there is a mentality that I can certainly do without. I remember a bunch of jazz bo's ganging up on Carlos Santana. Oh that guy can't play! He repeats the same licks over and over.or he plays blues and rock riffs so he is not worthy.
I see this attitude as being out of bounds. Or a statement like: Steve Hackett is not a good guitar player. I'm thinking What are you talking about? Okay he is not Pat Metheny or Wes Montgomery fine. However he is a classical player as well and where are these people going with this statement? So I have all these Miles Davis titles, Coltrane, Weather Report and I'm pondering over why would someone go out of their way to make fun of Steve Hackett? Critics are just full of nonsense. They don't have much to back up their statements. It seems a bit ego to me just like my unfortunate encounter with certain jazz players who are under the impression that the world revolves around their theory. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 14:59
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I have reviewed 188 albums for this site, and I have given 1 star to two albums only - both by Deep Purple, one of my favourite bands ever. One of the reasons I did so was to prove I could steer clear of any suspicion of fanboyism. I would give the same rating to any album by a favourite band or artist of mine which I found poor or disappointing. That said, in the three months I have been reviewing for another site I have learned a lot about being as objective as possible when rating an album. First of all, though we rate albums on that site as well, the main focus is the actual review, which is always rather detailed, and somewhat longer than what most people would post here. Then since we review albums the bands or artists send to us, we are exposed to a very varied range of stuff, some of which we would never buy on our own accord - so far it is from our personal tastes. However, this is where objectivity comes into play - we listen to an album with an open mind, and try to look for its strong points, not just for its weaknesses. I have given relatively high ratings to CDs that are not precisely my cup of tea, just because I have learned to recognise those strengths. |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 15:02
The tricky thing here is: Couldn't that also be fanboyism, but directed towards a particular album (or streak in career) of a band rather than the band's entire discography with the "classic album(s)" put on a piedestal for that and the rest bashed for basically not being them?  ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 15:13
Not really. Out of the whole DP discography, I find those two albums particularly weak, but I don't share the same opinion of other 'non-classic' albums (see the four stars I gave to the often-bashed Come Taste the Band). Believe me, fanboyism is something that is not really part of my nature , and I have never put anything on a pedestal just because I have been told it was a classic. |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 15:47
Honestly, I fail to see the problem with 'fanboyism'. It basically seems to be a meaningless attribute at the extent we take it to... as if people liking lots of things from a band is a problem or a mistake? |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 15:48
When it's liking it to the irrational exclusion of everything else then it is. 
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 16:35
hahha.. since when has justification ever been more than a passing thought to anyone awarding 1 star to DT.. or 5 stars to PT. That is why ratings are a joke.. always have been.. always will be. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 16:51
Micky, hate to say this and toot my own horn, but http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=218413 - erm, nope . That is a very long passing thought... |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 21:14
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the only true criteria for being allowed to post a review is that you have listened to the album. If you think someone would intentionally inflict music that they hate on themselves, then sit back & enjoy the glorious pain that they've put up with ...
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: September 09 2009 at 21:31
Nope. "His moment" is replete with utter smut. He did himself a favour by foregoing the garbage and going for the real deal. |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: September 10 2009 at 00:03
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The main thing about all this is that, no matter how we try to deal with that, music is art and art should be judged by taste. Critics are always criticized because they try to judge art by other values, and the common man is only concerned with his level of enjoyment.
For a common man, it doesn´t matter which techniques Picasso, Van Gogh or his neighboor used when painting. For a common man, it doesn´t matter if the song is a simple 4/4 intro/verse/chorus/verse/chorus affair or if it is a symphony with 3 distinct movements using different time signatures, key changes, unusual chord progressions, Dorian or Phrygian modes, etc. For a common man, it doesn´t matter if the film maker used revolutionary photography and edition methods or if the movie is an ordinary romantic comedy, with the same actors and the same base arguments.
When we review, we must be true to our tastes and reasonable, only that. If a person hates a band, he has the right to review everything with one star and he has the right to complain about the vocals, for example, in every album. When you are reading a review, you have the understanding that the reviewer dislikes the vocals and that is all. I think it is better to say that you hate high speed guitar solos than to say that the production is amateurish or the drummer is not very skilled, because the last explain less about the reviewer´s taste than the first. Which excerpt is more clear to describe a death metal band to a person interested:
"I dislike this album because I hate growling, ultradistorted guitars that sound like a drone and fast and repetitive drumming. It is not suited for my taste and only good to people who likes this kind of music."
or
"The vocals are not much varied, the musicianship is technical, but it doesn´t have a lot of feeling. Most of the chord progressions are not elaborated (I-IV-V or alikes). All the songs use common time signatures, so I don´t think it is very progressive and I don´t recommend this album to a prog fan."
I really prefer the first, because I know exactly which what kind of sound I will be dealing with.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 10 2009 at 01:08
Very true ... it depends a lot on the review and on how you put it. I don't mind someone giving low ratings to albums I love, what annoys me is when people start to disrespect the musicians involved. Example for a - IMHO - bad, condescending review: http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=61487 - http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=61487 Example for a - IMHO - good review with which I don't agree, but which I can respect: http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=132342 - http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=132342  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: September 10 2009 at 01:40
Yes I recognisize this! Not only bashing the music but even the people who might listen to it whaha! You must truly dislike it to do such a strange, puzzling think  .
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Posted By: fusionfreak
Date Posted: September 10 2009 at 04:03
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"I'm for what is against and against what is for"(Pierre Dac) ------------- I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world of searchers with the help from crimson king |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: September 10 2009 at 06:25
Going by paragraph: 'music is art and art should be judged by taste. Critics are always criticized because they try to judge art by other values, and the common man is only concerned with his level of enjoyment.'... 1. Art should be critiqued by whether it achieves what you think it means to achieve, what you think it should achieve and its context. If you can't justify or explain your opinions beyond 'I like/don't like this', I don't think that the resulting reviews would be any use to anyone who didn't share your tastes to the letter. @Paragraph 2. The common man might not consciously look for those techniques, but nonetheless the way in which something is painted, filmed or written affects the emotive quality of the end product vastly... this is why people actually practice at arts rather than just picking up a pen and paper once and submitting the result to galleries. The difference between the 'common man' and the critic, in my opinion, is only that the critic articulates their views a bit better and possibly has the technical know-how to do so, not that the 'common man' doesn't care about techniques. @Paragraph 3... I'd disagree, I think we need to explain our tastes... truly why we dislike an album. To be honest, it tells me nothing if someone doesn't like James Labrie's voice or thinks it's 'bad' unless they can tell me what they don't like about it. The only times I really take issue with reviews is when it's clear a reviewer plainly doesn't like an album and they fail to move beyond very general and abstract reasons for not liking something... Now, at the two examples, 1. only tells me about the perceived sound (honestly, I feel with death metal, people tend to see one element and assume all the others are automatically there as well... the same with AOR and so forth) and whether the reviewer likes that sound in general... if I actually like that sort of sound, it tells me nothing about whether or not I should get that album... it tells me nothing about the content of that album... 2. is at least tailored to the album in question. |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: September 10 2009 at 06:26
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If someone dislikes the output of an artist then the reviews should reflect that, as long as the arguments against are substantial, even if it does mean that all VdGG reviews get a low star rating. In the end it's all a matter of taste. In fact, I find these reviews very important, because if reviewers only rated those albums that they rated highly, we would be stuck with a site on which all albums had four or five star ratings, and that would not be a fair or accurate representation.
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: September 10 2009 at 06:31
Hit the link - move to the bottom - hit back !!
Read the super negative review of Sct Peppers Lonely Hart......
Freakin funny
Here is a little bit :
"Now it's McCartney's turn for a more-or-less solo bow. Mr. Optimism declares that he's perfectly content with his life -- he must have been the only person in the '60s who was -- and while he used to be mad at his school (wotta rebel!), it's "Getting Better" all the time because, oh, boy, he's in l-u-v. Hold on, though, there's something creepy going on just below the placid facade of romantic middle-class contentment.
Lennon's backing vocals are singing, "It can't get no worse," and now McCartney is telling us he used to be mean to his woman, he beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved. This guy's a freaking misogynist, and I don't buy for a minute that he's "changing his scene." Like Travis Bickle, he's just waiting for an excuse to explode. That insistent piano is like a nervous facial tick, the waltz-like tempo is barely keeping him restrained, and it's time to run and lock the door when the tune dissolves into a psychedelic breakdown with droning sitar and echoed tabla. Hey, the Hell's Angels took LSD, but they didn't automatically start loving everyone. Remember Altamont? Scary stuff, and perhaps I'd best stop free-associating. What a coincidence: Paul suggests the same thing on the very next tune. "I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in / And stops my mind from wandering / Where it will go." Wait a minute: I thought free-ranging intellectual exploration was the psychedelic ideal? Why is Macca trying to plug the leak and shut it down? The tune -- another lame, mid-tempo ballad with heavy overtones of vaudeville and the music hall -- gives us the answer: "It really doesn't matter / If I'm wrong I'm right / Where I belong I'm right." " ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: September 10 2009 at 06:40
Nope, we'd be Amazon |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 10 2009 at 12:42
Well, if it's all a matter of taste - which is also my opinion - then you don't need to substantiate anything in a review ... sometimes we just intuitively like or dislike something. I won't mind a 1 star review of an album which I would give 5 stars to which just says "I hate this album - I can't explain why". It's honest, and the reader can decide what to make of it. Of course more details are helpful ... for example, the reviewer could elaborate what he/she hates the most about the album. Then the reader has some points of reference to decide whether the review can be helpful.
We can't deduce though from the fact that an album has only high ratings that it has only been rated by fans ... or from an even distribution of low and high ratings that the album has been rated by fans and "haters". That's what makes the problem so difficult ... and ultimately impossible to solve. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 10 2009 at 12:50
Isn't that the ultimate goal of a review?
If you bought an album and you hate it, would be dishonest to rate it as a masterpiece.
This is not a fan club of a determined band, if you like an album and consider it great, rate it high, if you have an album, you hate it and have valid arguments...Say your truth, that's what Prog Archives expects of you IMO.
At the end, the real rating is in the review, if there are good arguments and and coherent reasons to rate an album low...Go on.
That's why I only worry about ratings with reviews that tell me why the person gave that rating and ignore ratings without reviews.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 10 2009 at 13:48
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^ I think that the ultimate goal (or purpose) of a review or rating is to help others who don't know the album decide whether they should check it out or not. The most important factor to achieve that goal is - in my humble opinion: Honesty As long as a review is - or at least appears to be - honest, I don't have any problem with it at all. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 10 2009 at 14:10
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Disclaimer: I don't write music reviews, and those I have done have not been well-written, If one is not familiar with the musical idiom/ musical modalities, then it's unlikely that one will write a good review (an intelligent and knowledgeable one). I look to reviews for information and insight that goes beyond preference, and commonly am not particularly interested in whether someone likes something or not (if that's all I want to get, I just look to the rating and ignore the review). With some I look to the humour in the reviews. I also appreciate honesty. If someone is unfamiliar with the kind of music, or it's not a preferred style, then I like it if they right out and say it. I'd rather read a review by someone who I feel really understands the music and is familiar with that musical scene. The best reviews are illuminating and educational; have great insight and show a musically well-informed individual. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: akin
Date Posted: September 10 2009 at 21:22
I don´t agree with your observations, but that´s ok.
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Posted By: mcxwell
Date Posted: September 10 2009 at 22:21
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For me, review should be OBJECTIVE,,
while taste is the number 1 considerstion that will decide whether you will like or dislike some music ------------- There is no Best, just DIfferent.. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: September 11 2009 at 02:53
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Basicly the important thing is that the reviewer make it clear, when are we talking about the music on an objective level, comparing it with similar albums ect ect
And when are we talking about the Reviewers taste in the kind of music you find on the album.
If a review slams the artist in general, its fine. Its then clear that he just dont like the band.
Its a lot worse if he slams the album, without making it clear that he hates the band, or maby even the genre in general. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: September 11 2009 at 06:37
I also like to read a review of someone who is new to the genre. In a way this is objective. Some people know so much about the genre that everything a band does (or seems to do!) is compared with the big collective. This might not always be true, for every band consists of different people with different motives. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 11 2009 at 06:45
This is very true . It is something I have learned in these past three months, when I had to review albums from bands and artists playing very different kinds of music to what I would normally listen to for 'pleasure'. Because of that, I found my tastes have been in some way broadened, and so has my approach to what we call 'prog'. And then, I have come to see the huge difference there is between reviewing an album I know very well, and one that is completely new to me. It does take an extra effort, but the result is well worth it. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 11 2009 at 06:59
hmmm... maybe I'm just silly... or just completely out of touch. The ultimate goal of a review is to inform the reader about an album... let them know what they might be getting. It isn't whether one likes it or not.. if we all had the same tastes that might mean something.. since we don't... it means jack sh*t. I don't care what people like and don't like... I want to know about an album. I would think most people are like that... but again... I might be one of weird ones. I always believed that... but didn't really realize it till I started reading Raff's reviews for that other site. Factual.. informative...and educational. That is the ultimate goal of a review.. not an opinion piece for whether someone with different tastes than me likes an album or not. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 11 2009 at 07:34
No they ain't and I think you realise that already. Ok reductio ad absurdum time again: If reviews did comply with the criteria you want to see i.e. factual, informative and educational etc there wouldn't be any more than say, 10 (tops) for any given release ? I suspect you might deem this a good thing (given the deluge of flotsam that passes for reviews at the moment) but I see this as tantamount to stocktaking by a museum curator who claims to be older than the exhibits themselves. Perhaps I'm the weird one here, because I don't read reviews of bands I don't like and no amount of selfless objectivity is ever gonna make me appreciate say, Dream Theatre for what a reviewer can deduce is their importance to a genre that leaves me cold. I just don't get how you can be objective about music that offends your aesthetic values ? e.g. can you describe the taste of chicken to someone if you don't like chicken ? Yes I know, the analogy is not equating 'like with like' but it was the best I could think of after half a bottle of wine kicked into the Lemming nervous system...  ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 11 2009 at 07:49
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 11 2009 at 08:45
God this Shiraz is strong stuff (hic) OK I'm fine with (most) of that but I am mature enough (I think) to realise that it's not the chicken that's BAD, it's just that I don't like it but that's not the point I was making  People visit this site because they are interested in exploring the types of music covered herein. That act in itself is a subjective value judgement e.g. Britney Spears is not included in PA (at least not yet, but don't hold your breath) and most of us would concur that we do not deem Ms Spears music any sort of fit for any of the available prog categories. Your argument would therefore rest on a democratic premise (just because WE don't think she's prog, does not mean that she ain't for others) Where does this madness end ? This reeks of that post modern malaise where the arts are reduced to the materials in a builders yard and 'if it keeps yer dry anyone can call it a house' Forgive the profanity Mickey, but that's bollocks. -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 11 2009 at 11:12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_KIzbktgJk - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_KIzbktgJk ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 11 2009 at 22:21
I said almost exactly what you said;:
I ask for valid arguments...If I have valid arguments to say why an album is bad IMHO, then I believe nobody should buy a determined album, if I said I hate it,don't buy it...Then my review will be worth nothing, but if I say this album is not worth buying because A + B + C reasons, then I'm telling people what I believe they would get.
Of I believe an album sucks, then my true and honest opinion is that nobody should get it if they trust in my reviews.
If I hate an album, believ it's terrible, but still rate it with 5 stars...I'm a liar.
BTW: I want to read opinions of the reviewers, I care more about the emotional impact an album makes in a determined person,than reviews that tell me what I'm going to listen, I can tell what an album sounds like, but I don't know what impression it makes on other listeners.
Of course that implies to know the reviewer, for example if Mike tells me a Tech. Extreme Metal album is worth 5 stars, I won't buy it anyway, because I know Mike loves Metal but I don't, he probably will dislike albums I love.
But if Gatot or Cerif1ed tell me "I loved X album", and explain their arguments, then I trust them, because I share the love for most of what they like.
BTW 2: As you, I don't like ratings alone. If somebody reads my reviews, they will find WHY I consider an album good or bad, but that can't be found on a rating alone.
Cheers
Iván -------------
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Posted By: tdfloyd
Date Posted: September 12 2009 at 00:55
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If you don't like the vocals, its fine to say so and award stars accordingly. On the other hand, to give 1 star because a song or the album is overplayed is not. There are reviews of Dark Side of the Moon and may other well known albums where the major beef is the radio play it has received. That does a disservice to the albums on the site and the people who use it for information.
Basically, I try to see if a reviewer has the same tastes I will put some stock into what they say. If not, I don't.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: September 12 2009 at 01:28
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I completely agree with micky, I like reviews which describe the music and this can imo warrant more than 10 or so reviews if people endeavour to go beyond the technical parameters. What about the mood, the ideas the band are trying to convey there, the band's evolution at that point, so many things that can hardly be elaborated in one review. There is more than one way to look at a great album and reviews which attempt to bring out a different way to look at an album are particularly helpful. Unfortunately, a lot of reviews anywhere on the net are really excuses for fans to say how much they love the album. Which is fine, appreciate the enthusiasm, but how about telling people WHY? That can be very interesting...at least I think so, I get the perception from generally surfing through the net that a lot of people think that such a style of reviewing is too pedantic and - gulp! - pretentious. Well, whatever floats one's boat, but a review that just tells me "I heard this album a few months back, I love it utterly, it's a masterpiece and I have been a fan of this band for blah blah years" is entirely unhelpful. Not to toot my own horn, but I wrote this review recently for Black Sabbath's Sabotage on a different website and the compulsion to justify the score - because there are apologetics who whine about that too frequently on that site! - forced me to waste two or so paras on that (I am otherwise of the opinion that reviews should not be accompanied by ratings at all, ratings can be handed out separately). But I think I have tried to articulate the experience of listening to the album taking into account the context in relation to the band's career at that point, particularly by highlighting why the approach here is somewhat different from their earlier albums . http://www.metal-archives.com/review.php?id=498#84278 - http://www.metal-archives.com/review.php?id=498#84278 |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 12 2009 at 07:53
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I think we're all going way off beam here fellas ? For the sake of clarity, let's agree that we all abhor the sort of slavish/bashing fan boy reviews that tell us nothing whatsoever about the music apart from the reviewer's love/hate for it right ?. Justifying any opinion is clearly a prerequisite to an informative balanced review right ? Good. We're all happy bunnies on that methinks...THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE AT HAND (oops yelling, sorry) No matter how informative,balanced,objective,distanced, selfless you strive to make a review, it will always reveal more about the reviewer than what is being reviewed. Please let us not fall into the vainglorious error of pretending we are somehow immune from being forever trapped in metaphor. (It is impossible to describe any phenomenon without reference to another phenomenon - that is what metaphor is - the human medium is the message - objectivity via language is therefore rendered delusional folks - you cannot separate the knower from the known - this should be self evident from the foregoing ?) The terminology, reference points and words you use, the phrases you choose, the vernacular and slang you employ, the pace and tone of your style etc: all these things do not describe the music, they unwittingly describe you, and (at a pinch) others with similar indigenous cultural values/beliefs As far as the purpose of the reviews carried by PA, I do agree with Mickey that there are probably a lot of visitors to the site who just want to 'know what they're getting' with regards a particular album and the type of reviewing style he advocates would certainly fulfil that need. However, I tend to empathise with Ivan M here as I like to read well reasoned opinions about music irrespective of their positive or negative orientation. If sincere subjective opinion are deemed both abhorrent and risible to some people, why do they continue to post in the forums with such shrill indifference ? Lights out, time for bed everyone. -------------
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Posted By: friso
Date Posted: September 12 2009 at 09:36
| Before I by something I read some reviews (sometimes the highest and the lowest rated..), but when I got used to the music I will read some more cause then I can understand where every-one 's been talking about. I get interested in other opions. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 13 2009 at 15:05
actually... I know I posted this somewhere else.. here.. there.. or one of the countless threads we've seen over the years on the subject. The best of reviews contain both the points you mention... telling the reader about the album and what it contains... without bias... then telling the reader what you as a listener think of the album itself with a sincere opinion. Far too many are not sincere in the first place with their opinions... far too few tell me.. the reader what I might get with the album. There are lots of exceptions... and those are the reviews that reflect well of the site.. and the reviewers themselves. The best though.. touch on both. Let someone torch an album.. I could care less... just take a second to tell us about whatever the hell you are torching hahha. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: September 14 2009 at 09:03
In this respect: what do you think of my Pawn Hearts review ? I hesitated for quite some time to post it because of the one star rating, NOT because of the review. In my own perspective I think it's fair I posted it in the end because I explained why I didn't like it with valid arguments. And I also (or even mainly) did the review because I feel a controversial album like Pawn Hearts should also get some negative comments because it's not really an album for everyone, is it ? ------------- A day without prog is a wasted day |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: September 14 2009 at 09:18
Right. And that's exactly what makes an album controversial. You treated Larks' Tongues in Aspic in a similar way, probably for similar reasons. ------------- 
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Posted By: XunknownX
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 00:23
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 01:47
You always claim that you need the reviews and ratings are worthless ... but hand on heart, isn't it sufficient to see a high rating by a member whom you know to have a matching taste? A 2 star rating by Gatot would surely keep you away from an album without you having to read the review ... ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 02:56
I disagree for the same reason you think that would be more objective: Someone new to a genre might not be as familiar with its conventions and less likely to know exactly when the clichés are and are not played straight. The more subtle innovations or deviations from the formula would hence be lost on the kind of person you describe. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 03:34
 Exact same story indeed !------------- A day without prog is a wasted day |
Posted By: Sacred 22
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 03:54
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I'm sure it has been said before, but the more familiar the reputation of a reviewer the better. Once you know their tastes you are in a much better position to gain relevance out of their review. Many of the purchases I make in audio gear are made with certain reviewers in mind only because I know that their tastes are much the same as mine. Opposites attract but likes stick together.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 10:33
Sorry, I don't agree with this statement. If only people who like an album would review it, we would have 24,096 releases with 5 stars,. and Prog Archives would we worth nothing. Progarchives must tell people which albums are recommended by the reviewers and which (also in opinion of the reviewers), should be avoided, but if only people who like albums review them, any newbie or visitor would believe PA is another fanboy club where everything is perfect. I would had thanked a review that told me that OVO was not really a Gabriel album, I bought it based in the name of Peter and hated it, I live in Perú, each CD's costs an average of US$ 26.00, and not being rich, I can't afford the luxury to buy an album that I won't like. Since then I read the reviews, balanced the positive and negative ones, weight the confidence I have in determined reviewers as well as the taste of them (As I said Gatot has similar tastes with me while Mike is a Metal encyclopaedia but I don't like most metal), and only then I decide to get an album or not. So I value the positive and negative reviews equally. Iván
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 10:42
Noi it isn't Mike, because I don't know why the author likes or dislikes an album.
For example, if I read a rating alone about Sheherezade and other Stories with 2 stars by a reviewer I trust (This is only fiction), I would probably avoid it, and loose one of the best albums ever.
But if I read that rating with a review by the same author that says "Excellent music, absolutely Symphonic, but I don't like female vocals in Prog" (Not fiction, I read this comment twice), I would ignore the rating and buy the album, becaise I like Symphonic music with female vocals.
Maybe another person says that Opeth is worth 5 stars, without a review means nothing for me, but if that same person writes "Great album, excellent music and the growling is awesome"...Then I know I shouldn't buy the album because I hate gowling.
So for me, ratings without reviews mean almost nothing.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: friso
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 11:44
Interesting discussion. I think everyone should be able to rate an album one or two stars if they realy hate it. The anti-fanboy however, is someone who rates a complete discography of a band he doesn't like. That's a big difference. And besides, Pawn Hearts and Lark's Tongues are both very controversial. I've listened to the latter five times now, but I still don't know weather it's a two star of a five star album for me .
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 12:04
I agree 100% with Ivan's point of view, and would like to add something else. It is everyone's right to review whatever they want, especially since this site allows it - and that includes albums we don't like, those from bands we love that have disappointed us (see my two Deep Purple examples), and everything in between. However, bashing an album we dislike is easy - what is far more difficult is to write a basically negative review that does non indulge in mindless bashing (both of the music and of the band/artist), but tries to explain to the reader what may be wrong with the album without using demeaning language. I don't really like it when people write 'avoid this album' at the end of a review, as if one's personal taste was a kind of universal measurement of something's worth. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 12:39
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I don't have any problems with negative reviews as long as 1. The writer backs it up with an explanation rather than just bashing/trashing it. 2. They aren't going negative just because the album doesn't suit their particular taste. 3. You aren't knocking an album I really really like.  Of course mindlessly positive reviews are as equally pointless. I also find ratings without a review pointless so I don't pay attention to the ratings anyway. I consider them only of value for amusement purposes. I do put the highest value on being able to try before I buy and making up my own mind. We all have different tastes and that's the best way to know if you should bother. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 13:47
Right Raff, is the site presents a variety of options that go from 1 to 5 stars, we are supposed to use them all when an album deserves them, if not mailto:M@X - M@X would had created only three options (Good, Better and Excellent), and most of us wouldn't be here. Despite being a Genesis fan, I left their forums, because if you didn't said that all the albums are excellent, there's not a bad instant ad that Illegal Alien or Who Dunnit? where masterpieces,. you received negative feedback. On the other hand when a newbie said that Invisible Touch was as good as A Trick of the Tail or Foxtrot, because Rutherford was as good guitarist as Steve Hackett he was applauded. I replied that Rutherford was a bassist who also played guitar,but never in the level of a virtuosos like Steve and was almost condemned to ostracism, so I decided to leave. If I can't say what I think, then I don't belong there, and here in Prog Archives, our opinions (positive or negative) are welcomed. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 14:51
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Just to prove how pointless a rating considered as a separate entity can be, I'll bring the example of another prog website, whose name will remain unsaid. I often check their reviews of albums that I have got to review myself, and I saw they had given more or less the same rating (6.5 and 7) to two different albums. The thing is, the review of the former album stated that it was 'insufficient', while that of the latter said it was 'excellent'. Now, I can't really believe that half a point is all it takes to turn a mediocre album into a very good one... Without those odd ratings, the reviews would have made much more sense. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 15:04
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^ Different people use different rating scales ... and even in reviews people use adjectives like "good", "great" or "average" with different meanings. One person might call an album "good" and it's a recommendation, while another person might use the word "good" as a euphemism for "nice try, but not quite". I'll reiterate my point: Ratings, reviews, tags ... whether they mean something to you depends mostly on whether you know the person who submitted them. And, by extension, the more ratings are submitted for any item, the more likely will the resulting average be useful, since the different strategies that people use will "even out". ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 15:25
That is true, but review sites do not always have a faithful readership. Internet surfing is not always about visiting the same site over and over again (though it may be for the likes of us), but often about visiting sites occasionally just in order to find a particular piece of information. Personally, though I visit a couple of review sites quite regularly, I have not really had the opportunity to get acquainted with the different reviewers and their individual styles - among other factors, those sites don't work like PA, where each and every reviewer has a personal page. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 15:38
^ I think that it's absolutely vital that for each reviewer there's a page that shows all their ratings or at least some statistics about them. Have a look at my rating distribution at PF: Now, it doesn't tell you everything, but it's a start. Of course the best way to find out if you might trust another reviewer is to go through his list of ratings and find out if his ratings for albums that you know match - within some reasonable range - the ratings that you would submit for those ratings. This is what I have implemented at PF on the recommendations page. If you like you can give it a try ... rate some popular albums and then see which other users were most "compatible", and which albums the system recommends to you based on that. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 15:44
| Ratings for a certain album can be different on other sites. Allmusic rates Gong's You 3/5, on PA it is listed as 4.3/5. Gentle Giant's Power and the Glory gets 2/5 on allmusic and 4.2/5 on PA. I just depends on who makes te reviews. The good think about PA is that there are a lot of ratings that make the final resulting rating. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 15:49
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^ generally I agree that the more ratings the better, but you can also get interesting content with few users as long as they're knowledgeable. Personally, I'll prefer a small group of experts over a large crowd of anonymous voters.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 16:32
By the way, my knock at ratings was not directed at you personally Mr. ProgFreak. I think you devised a pretty decent scale. And for those that prefer to do ratings and not reviews there's probably no better place to be when it comes to prog. 
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 16:38
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^ thanks, but I know that there will never be a scale (a mapping between ratings and adjectives like "average", "good", "great" etc.) that *everyone* is happy with. BTW: Even people who usually prefer reviews could enjoy a ratings-centric website from time to time ... ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: SonicDeath10
Date Posted: September 15 2009 at 21:25
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He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts. ------------- "Good evening hippies." Bobby Boy |
Posted By: pmendes
Date Posted: September 16 2009 at 05:42
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Although I haven't done a review and don't consider myself that qualified to do it, I believe (IMHO) a good review should be a balance between personal taste and objective appreciation of the album quality. In fact objective appreciation should probably be the most important factor, because a review is made for others to read and it's probably easy to recognize quality even if it's not your cup of tea... But if one is reading reviews to decide on getting an album or not, I would say the best review would be to listen to it if you can (easier today with the Internet ). Or at least to follow a reviewer you trust...Cheers, Paulo ------------- NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 16 2009 at 06:43
Such words of wisdom deserve a clappie , and a very warm welcome to PA! This is exactly how I see the 'art' of reviewing. However, I believe you are being too modest (though I believe humility is a very good thing) - most of the people who review albums, including the so-called 'professionals', are not exactly 'qualified', if not by being music lovers. I know I am not - I do like to write, and I write reasonably well, but I am not a musician, and my approach to music is impressionistic rather than technical. So, I think you should give it a try - you might become one of the best reviewers around! |
Posted By: pmendes
Date Posted: September 16 2009 at 11:26
Hi, thanks very much, I shall give it a thought !Regards, Paulo ------------- NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: September 16 2009 at 13:06
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Unfortunately, there are no rules of that review should be 500+ words (the more, the better I think, but when there's nothing to say, should I say less, or not say anything at all ?), or obey law that you write a review to help others, not for yourself (but even this can't be enforced). Paulo has unique skill. He made all these posts in this thread to few lines. Of course, I think that it's your opinion, not taken from others, but it looks nice and ironically, to have this in one short post. This is exception, sometimes a lot of words can be worse, so less is more saying goes a long way. Raff, my clappie is frozen before he can clapped. He doesn't move. Of course, this can be caused by animated objects turned off, but what if he's not supposed, or even not allowed to clap ? What in this case ? ;-) To summarize these words in my way, a people here and their opinions can be divided to few groups: 1)rate objectively, with little, or no own feelings 2)rate 1/2 from each 3)rate how you feel this album, because others will know what's bad about it from your point of view. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 16 2009 at 16:05
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4.- Review however you want if you believe it's honest, correct, respectful and informative.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: September 23 2009 at 14:03
Wait, you mean there are other sites on the internet besides Progarchives? Why would anyone have any desire to visit them? I try to point out negatives about even my most favorite albums (try to see it from other perspectives.......like Pawn Hearts, which is a 5 star album for me, I can still admit that Hammill's voice is an acquired taste and that some may be immediately turned off by it). I also try to point out positives about even my least favorite albums (things like good production quality, or that the musicians are obviously very skilled, or things along those lines). I actually have the most difficulty with negative reviews because if I don't like an album at all, I'm not likely to listen to it enough times to get to know it well. I give every album at least 2 or 3 listens, usually more if there is anything about it I like. But that often is not enough to give an informative detailed review about. My early progarchives reviews make me cringe, as they are not informative, very short, and really offer very little insight to the average listener. I've tried to improve that and as a result, I very rarely write reviews anymore Overall though, I agree with the balanced notion. Be informative, give your opinion, and leave the rest up to the reader. |
Posted By: Green Shield Stamp
Date Posted: September 23 2009 at 15:04
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Can someone explain for me what is meant by the term fanboy? It is obviously pejorative - but why fanboy and not fanman? Does it carry connotations of immaturity? Is being a fan negative? Does it carry slight homosexual connotations? I see the term used a lot in Prog Archives and often wonder what is meant by it. ------------- Haiku Writing a poem With seventeen syllables Is very diffic.... |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: September 23 2009 at 15:32
Referring to falling from simple fandom to idol worship and lost of objectivity. And yes connotations of immaturity and mild sexual infatuation. (Whether its homosexual depends of course. Me, I'm saving myself....for myself.) ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 23 2009 at 15:32
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It commonly is pejoratively used, and often humorously, and commonly refers to young males in their teen and twenties who show almost fanatical obsessiveness about something and are extremely biassed. It definitely has connotation of immaturity, and so it could be used for a male of any age who shows immaturity when it comes to the object of his "devotion". Here an example of fanboyism: "Band x is the best band ever!" They commonly mistake subjective truth for objective truth. But as I said, it's also used in a humorous way. In the past, I have described as a Magma fanboy, and wouldn't have minded others saying the same as I could go pretty overboard. There are many fanboys and fangirls of all ages.
------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 23 2009 at 15:44
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Oh, and about it having homosexual connotations, it's not uncommon for homosexual traits to come out in fanboys, I think. They might worship certain men (say Petrucci) so much that they queerly fantasize about the man. I certainly see self-professed fanboys playfully playing with homo-eroticism, but there's probably some truth behind statements such as "I want to get into such and such male musician's pants" from professed heterosexuals. I've never been a real fanboy, or a rent boy for that matter, so I don't know. forum_posts.asp?TID=3593&KW=Geddy+lee -
------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Green Shield Stamp
Date Posted: September 24 2009 at 14:53
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Thanks for clearing that one up for me. Mind you, it's pretty difficult to present fully objective views when discussing music - the appreciation of which is naturally highly subjective. But I get your point. There is a clear difference between appreciation and idol worship. ------------- Haiku Writing a poem With seventeen syllables Is very diffic.... |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: October 23 2009 at 15:11
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Some trolls may spam a discography with one star ratings for various reasons and objectives, but trolls can be either ignored or dealt with admins. I believe a critic opinion with arguments should always be allowed though.
Also, vinyls can be punished in more imaginative ways, if they are terrible and contain no money value. For example adding some of them along shoes to a wedding decorations tied behind the limousine teaches those suckers to not pollute the aural space anymore with their no good art rock.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 23 2009 at 15:31
I believe this is unfair and reveals lack of knowledge of Prog.
Most of us bought a great number of ou albums when there was no Internet or downloads, we heard the name of the band and bought them without listening, the day it was released.
This is how I got albums such as:
In other words, albums that I would had never bought if I had the slightest idea what music was inside. Even bought OVO without listening,only because Peter Gabroiel's name in the cover, without having even listened it, and I hate it from start to end, unlike all the rest of the Gabriel albums.
Now, we buy albums because of the REVIEWS, and sometimes we miss it, because tastes are different.
When you have 20, 30 or 100 albums, it's easy to choose, but when you have more than 1,000 or 3,000 albums, you buy almost aything you know something about, because there's not so much to choose when you have all your wishlist.
I know most of the reviewers and Collaborators, and they don't download for what I know, much less will dare to review an album without having heard it several times COMPLETE.
This is offensive IMO, I rate an album using 1 tp 5 stars, depending in the honest opinion about the music, so yes it's fair to give a poor rating to an album you paid for if you believe it's bad.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: October 23 2009 at 17:58
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To write reviews is an art.
You have to be well know in writing in propper manner and not the usual arguments like: "This album is the best" and " a Truly masterpiece", you can use those in the forum but if you use that in a review you have to enlight the reader why is rate a masterpiece for you that album or song.
I try in my reviews to give a general view of the album and a little history of the band an a certain point in the making of the album in review, then i move on to the songs, i always think that the review should tackle all the songs, and drop in between your personal objetive opinion about.
You should have an general argument to review the albums and prove on the whole review, it's not about describing the songs and saying yea or nay, you have to support your opinion with facts or with the background research that you did before sits to write a review.
And finally end your review with a postlude comment.
My two mexican devaluated pesos. -------------  |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: October 23 2009 at 18:04
Dude, relax, he was talking about those who come here only to leave low ratings in order to manipulate the charts. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 23 2009 at 20:16
Well, sorry if that's the case, vbut heard those kind of complains against people that rate an album low.
Last month a guy sent me an aggressive PM when I rated the last Porcupine Tree album with two stars (another one I bought without listening a second, just pre-ordered it because of the band), you can't imagine how the fanboy attacked me, because he said he cried each time he heard the album.
I laughed when I went to his review permalink, he had rated the album with 5 stars without review.
 But I agree hateboys are as bad as fanboys.
And people who manipulate a rating, need to get a life.
Iván -------------
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