Rap Music's Place In Prog
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Topic: Rap Music's Place In Prog
Posted By: Textbook
Subject: Rap Music's Place In Prog
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 03:12
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Hi all, long time prog fan here who's recently got into this excellent site (so many good leads in those top 10 lists) and thought I'd join in the discussion.
For my inaugural post, I thought I'd try to break some new ground, kind of what prog is all about, by introducing rap music into the prog mix. (Apologies if this has actually been done countless times before.)
Prog seems to gleefully embrace elements of all genres under the sun except hip-hop. For some reason it's the outsider. Throw in jazz, rock, metal, chamber music, classical music, blues, various Ethnic music, anything goes. But put on a hip-hop beat and start MCing and- no. Just doesn't fly with anyone even in theory does it? I suppose the argument is that prog is often about a display of performance ability and people often seen DJing or producing beats as "not real music" because you stitch together bits of other records or make it on computers. I find this kind of silly because who cares how a sound is made. Blending old records together can result in really crazy mashes not entirely unlike those made by some of prog's stylistic chameleons and what prog band doesn't use computers to edit and filter their sound?
As for MCing, the objection usually seems to be the gangster stereotype seen in much mainstream rap rather than the idea of rhythmically saying rhyming words about a subject. But of course you can rap about the mystic secrets of the cosmos or any other such prog-sounding topic if you have the will to.
Even though I am huge rap fan I agree that most mainstream stuff is rubbish and that most good hip-hop languishes in obscurity. There's an underground of hardcore fans who support it but it never registers on the mainstream at all so I'd like to point open minded people in the direction of some rap music I feel heads in a proggish direction- I'd like to see it come in from the cold so prog lives up to the promise of it's all-inclusive nature.
(I write all this aware of the possibility that there IS a prog band or artist out there who brings rap and hip-hop into the mix and if there is and I just don't know them, let me know.)
Probably the best bastion for the most prog-like rap I know is a label called Def Jux run by an artist called El-P. Here are some Def Jux records that either in production or lyrics or both head into proggy places either by getting really complex lyrically or having eclectic, unusual production or just generally eschewing the expectations of hip-hop.
Here's some Def Jux:
The Cold Vein by Cannibal Ox I Phantom by Mr Lif
Fantastic Damage by El-P
I'll Sleep When You're Dead by El-P
None Shall Pass by Aesop Rock
(Aesop Rock is probably the best example there is of a prog-type rapper, extremely complex rhymes, very hard to follow, very deep and ambitious. None Shall Pass is probably his best album.)
Beauty And The Beat by Edan is another record that comes to mind with very offbeat but great production.
Also really liked a rap record that came out earlier this year called More Heart Than Brains by Bike For Three (Canadian MC plus Belgian/Vietnamese female producer) which was really heartbroken, quiet stuff, real change from the usual bluster.
Another Canadian MC called D-Sisive put out a record called Let The Children Die earlier this year, another I find worth checking out.
Why are a group from California who mix indie pop-rock with hip-hop. Their new album Eskimo Snow completely dropped the rap elements but their much better 2008 album Alopecia brought in big beats and an Eminem like delivery from the singer that was really quite a unique mix, miles away from the stupid stereotype or rap-rock that comes from Limp Bizkit/Korn.
There's also old classics like Doctor Octagonecologyst by Doctor Octagon where the notoriously crazy MC Kool Keith pretends to be a time traveling alien who comes to earth and poses as surgeon and gynecologist.
Canibus is another MC I like a lot, often very serious and intellectual yet at the same time rooted in hip-hop's traditions, check out Rip The Jacker.
May think of more later and maybe you can suggest some yourself, thanks for reading if you did :)
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Replies:
Posted By: *frinspar*
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 03:56
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Good points, and a fair topic. I think there just have to be lines drawn somewhere. I already get a headache when I think of the sub-genres, and sug-sug-genres in prog. I may go into a coma if I come here and see a new sub-genre labeled: Gangsta Symphonic Zeuhl Rap   People can basically argue anything is prog, or that anything considered prog is not really prog. It gets so convoluted. Hip-hop started from it's own place with its own strong spirit, and has grown and thrived as its own genre. Maybe there are elements in what you listed that don't fit with typical hip-hop, but in the end it's all still more hip-hop than anything else, right? It's great that it's expanding the genre and artists are attempting to reach fans in new ways. But it's really doing more to alter hip-hop than reaching outside of it as something else. I'd have to hear some of what you're talking about really, so I'm not coming from a truly fair position. But I just feel that some distinctions need to be made or followed. No one really wants to hear something like Punk-Prog. At the same time, I don't think it's completely out of bounds, what you're saying. But it's just too easy to call something different "prog" because it's different. I think there can be crossover potential for anything into any style, but not necessarily a straight transfer. Praxis embodies a spirit of melding hip-hop foundations with other music, but it's not really prog either. It has a great prog sensibility and spirit behind it, but it's debatable where it falls. |
Posted By: MaxerJ
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 03:57
We also hate country  It's more of a dislike for mainstream, which is the only place many ever hear hip-hop, or any music for that matter... The reason is that like any other type of music rap and hip-hop can experiment with musicality, but they don't seem to yet... it's not a bad thing - it took rock twenty or so years. I've recently been getting into avanthop - stuff from the Anticon label, but i can't buy it anywhere and i refuse to torrent anything, so i'm stuck listening to the website and such  I think that the style is definitely developing------------- Godspeed, You Bolero Enthusiasts  'Prog is all about leaving home...' - Moshkito
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 04:09
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Maxer: Yeah I know country's a great pariah too but I have seen country passages/elements in prog.here and there.
Frinspar: Yeah is what I'm listing PROG rap or is just ALTERNATIVE or EXPERIMENTAL rap? I don't know. But I certainly see the potential for rap/hip-hop to join the fray in a way they don't seem to be doing. Hey, anyone want to make some beats, I'll come up with the verses if you'll bear with my New Zealand accent.
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Posted By: *frinspar*
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 04:18
Good question. One I can't answer. But if they're truly pioneers in their style and not driven by convention, they're at least progressively-minded. Though that still doesn't mean "prog" LOL Off to bed, but at least since you're in NZ, I know Thursday will happen now.  |
Textbook wrote:Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 04:32
| Be sure to check out a rapper called Busdriver if you'd like your cerebellum fused. He's not so much prog as he is berserk nuts but he sounds like nothing out there. 'Fear Of A Black Tangent' is probably his best record. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 04:40
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I'm in a rockband with a hiphop vocalist. It began as a joke, I wanted to do something that didn't suit me at all, but it turned out to be a great way to get some stage performance experience. Our songs are evolving and I do try to get some progressive influences in our music. We've even made a sort of epic!
Still I don't believe there will ever be rap/hiphop music that is suited for the PA reportoire. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 05:12
| Not with that attitude there won't :P |
Posted By: Mind_Drive
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 05:14
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for me it would be like: wow damn this is the missing piece to complete my prog of all genres i like ;) but i seriously doubt, that hiphop will ever be on a site like this.. and im just listening to some of the stuff you mentioned and its pretty cool (im curious, did you hear of jedi mind tricks? my favourite rap band - it isnt prog at all but very nice )greets ------------- It's just a ride... <3 |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 05:20
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Well what you guys did to do is prove you are open-minded and actually try some of the stuff I'm talking about... maybe it will go down in flames, maybe it won't, we'd just have to see.
Mind Drive: JMT are huge on the underground. They're certainly alternative but they're not prog. Great beats but MC Vinnie Paz is a little embarrassing sometimes, though he did seem to up his game on Serpents In Heaven, Kings In Hell.
'Nother great alternative rap artist: RA The Rugged Man.
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Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 05:40
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Rap really in it's more simplistic is funk rhythms with rhythmic vocals.A lot of alternative rap still follows these basic principles.I'm sure we can find many songs with these characteristics.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Asphalt
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 08:50
I find it funny how people manage to say at the same time "I don't listen to rap" and "I don't think there is any rap out there that is experimental." No, it's actually hilarious.  I bet if a user went "Oh, hey, I don't listen to art rock. I think it sucks, by the way. No creativity whatsoever..." he'd be crucified within an instant.Has anybody around here listened to artists like Blue Sky Black Death, Dalek, Dubadelic, El-P, Flying Lotus, Metaform or Why? They all fall within the category of hip-hop and seriously experimenting and pushing the boundaries of the genre. Just because you haven't heard it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Frankly there are many artists already on PA a lot less experimental or "progressive" (not prog) than the previously mentioned. I also think hip-hop will likely neavure feature on this site, but not because there will never be artists that will be experimental enough, but rather due to most's members blind rejection of the genre (but hey, at least we're open minded and want to expand our musical tastes, right?) |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 10:19
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Hi,
The term itself is open to many variations, so if folk, and rock and whatever can have a progressive side, so why not rap?
Albeit, I do think that "rap" per se is trapped in an area by its use and lyricism.
I have not heard enough rap out there mixed with anything else, other than things like Pippero and a few others that had appeared with The Bulgarian voices and then in some rave mixes out there ... but in general the frenetic pace tended to go against the "concentration" mode that most progressive music tends to take us in ... I don't see "progressive" (for example) as "disco" as something that you can dance to ... somehow, I never thought of Dream Theater as dance music ... or King Crimson ... but that doesn't mean that I am stuck in a time warp and think that dance is one thing only ... !!! ... ??? ....
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 13:02
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Rap can definately be progressive, but I don't see anything with a significant rap element being able to fall under prog rock. Rap by its nature can't show the musicianship that is associated with prog, nor is it really possible to rap in 9/8. One hip hop artist I enjoyed was clouDDEAD, although I haven't heard a full album. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 13:46
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But is this just a prog ROCK place? I thought there was quite a bit of stuff around here that doesn't particularly rock.
Anyway, that this thread got moved seems endemic of the problem. I wasn't talking about rap- I was talking about rap's place in prog. I don't want to talk to people who listen to rap, I want to talk to people who listen to prog, hence my placing this in the prog forum. But it's as though some fellow, presumably sipping Perrier and wearing a monocle, came along and went "Good heavens! Rap music in a prog forum? Why this simply just isn't how it's done!" in unwitting imitation of his own parents' reaction to the Mahavishnu Orchestra.
I'm not attempting to start something with a moderator, I'm just making an argument for inclusiveness and open-mindedness when discussing prog.
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Posted By: sealchan
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 13:50
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I think any genre of music could find its way into a progressive mode and vice versa. I've heard halting attempts at including rap influenced material in two major progressive bands:
Yes on a track on the second side of Union more of just a hip-hop beat (sorry I don't own the track currently and it has been awhile since I have)
Fish on Sunset on Empire on a song called "What Color Is God?"
The latter example was an awesome hint at what rap could add to progressive rock. If you haven't heard this song by Fish you are missing a defining moment I think in the potential here.
I've made the suggestion elsewhere that rap and hiphop are potential goldmines for progressive rock. Perhaps part of the gulf is the way in which rap and hiphop artists engage the instrument via sampling. But the artful use of sampling (and actually my brother whose made something of a name (Solenoid, DJ Brokenwindow, Mr. Pharmacist) in this area) is, perhaps, a staple of electronic music and there clearly are no barriers here. But the way in which rap and hiphop develop what in rock music would be the rhythm section and the way they open up the spoken voice as another element to song seems to me to be a no-brainer for a rich source of new blood in any musical context.
I suspect that what may have kept these two genres apart is an underlying social divide, a divide in the community of those who listen to and appreciate these respective genres, a divide in the community of those who perform these different types of music, and not a divide in the creative possibilities of the music itself.
I have left an open door to rap and hip hop but I have not yet had the level of interest to invest, since divesting myself of LPs and cassettes, to purchase any in the last 15 years. The album "Fear of a Black Planet" has piqued my interest as have the Beastie Boys and Eminem, and I will probably repurchase something by Sir Mixalot eventually...
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Posted By: sealchan
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 13:52
| I should also add that the lyrical content of Yes' "That, That Is" shares a lot with what I hear from the lyrical content of rap songs which often speak of desperate situations related to drug use. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 13:53
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Just a thought, but Rush had the song Roll the Bones, Anthrax had the song I'm The Man, and Aerosmith and Run-DMC combined with a rap-done version of Walk This Way. Not to mention, musicians such as Kid Rock and Limp Bizkit who mix rap with rock and metal. Also, I know that there is a 2008/2009 prog release which includes some rap-type vocals. I don't recall who it was at the moment. Maybe Ephrat? I'm sure that to an extent it could be done. As a matter of fact, there was a thread from a year or two back that had a rap or hip-hop song that used the music from Can. ------------- 
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 13:57
But those songs were terrible. And again, I doubt that there can be effective prog rap-rock, because by necessity the rap element will overpower the elements we traditionally associate with prog. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 13:59
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 14:05
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Yeah I'm not talking about rap-rock- that certainly exists with good artists like Ill Bill (as opposed to the awful Limp Bizkit/Linkin Park etc rubbish). I'm talking about prog rap. Another guy that comes to mind is Del The Funky Homosapien. His key album is Deltron 3030. It's a concept rap opera set in the year 3030 which tells the story of Galactic Rhyme Federation Champion Deltron Zero battling the evil government of the dystopia he lives in. Oh come on, it's not any sillier than 2112.
The album also features Sean Lennon and is the birthplace of Gorillaz- it was produced by Dan The Automator and Damon Albarn turns up on the first track.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 14:13
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I realize that, but my point being that if rap can be mixed with rock as it is with those bands, I'm sure that it could be mixed with prog as well. I don't know this Ill Bill and how his quality is somehow better than other rap-rock artists. I'm not saying that either prog fans or rap/hip hop fans would enjoy it, but I'm sure it could be done. -------------
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 14:21
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Ill Bill's something of a meathead actually- his music is not intellectual- but he's good rocking fun whereas Limp Bizkit just sounded terrible. If you want to hear him try a song called Trust Nobody. He also made a good song out of Dragonforce samples called White n****r. (I know the N word's a no-no, I say it because it's the name of the song and secondly because the song is stridently anti-racist, a cry of rage from the caucasian Jewish Bill against those who insult him because they think hip-hop is only for black people.)
Back to prog type stuff, there's also a bizarre MC called Doom who even dresses up in costume on stage like a Genesis era Peter Gabriel. Doom usually dresses as Doctor Doom from Fantastic Four, rapping even with the mask on. He made a full-length collaboration with oddball producer Madlib called Madvillainy that was very unusual and byzantine.
IDoom is also worth checking out for Mmm Food, an entire rap album about food.
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 14:39
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What came up for Aesop Rock and El-P on youtube was not promising. Culturally what rap is about is not real compatible with what prog is about...but people break rules all the time.
There's a long line of literate, smart rappers, but the music is just not about nuance or complexity.
I had a roomate who was very into rap for several years, and I enjoyed it for what it was. But I these days I just can't get into music with virtually no harmony or melody. That's just me. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 15:00
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------------- "Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967). |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 15:19
| There are also quality concept albums in rap. Two that spring to mind are A prince Among Thieves by Prince Paul and A Day In The Life by Sticky Fingaz. Both are mostly typical hip-hop in content, but tell a complete narrative from beginning to end with different vocalists playing characters and so forth. |
Posted By: *frinspar*
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 15:34
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Logan, I listened to those samples. I think, despite the larger attempt at samples and instrumentation not typically found in mainstream rap, it's really still just rap. Just not the usual garbage on the radio or in videos. The structure is still intrinsically that of rap/hip-hop that really hasn't expanded outside of any known boundary. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 16:40
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Yeah, guess you're right, *frinspar*. Even the collaboration with Faust (one of the big names of Krautrock, and a favoured band by me)
isn't really structurally progressive, I think. Still, this album should interest a number here: ../album.asp?id=15232"> 
 3.42 | 4 ratings ../album.asp?id=15232 - FAUST vs. DÄLEK - Derbe Respect, Alder 2004 Maybe we'll have to wait until "Rap in Opposition" catches fire. I know I've heard some pretty experimental bands that made rap with fairly unusual structures and instrumentation such as "live" violins and cello (I don't really like rap to be honest, but I've been looking to find some "chamber rap" artists and good and original cosmic jazz rap) on a CBC (Canadian radio) radio arts programme (but I don't remember the names). Some of the best sounding I've heard has been pure mish-mash with rap dubs, but I'd rather hear more original compositions. At least Dr. Daneil Bernard Roumain is a very talented guy whose been active in hip-hop (though the greater world of hip-hop I can enjoy). TO be honest, it's not really a style I've explored that much, but thought I'd post those and see what others thought (to me they didn't really sound atypical structurally either). ------------- "Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967). |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 16:53
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I liked the Id Obelus...those are great samples but that's a total of about 30 minutes tops on a recording surface. For a studio guy like Devin Townsend, about twice through the mix.
The lyrics are sometimes quite good but even the vocal rhythms just aren't that compelling most of the time. When someone finds an interesting new way to phrase (Bone Thugs) it get completely used up within a year.
I'd personally rather listen to Ani DiFranco who eclipses all this including this. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: *frinspar*
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 17:01
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Oh, I applaud the offerings, Logan. And whether or not they moved me (didn't, but I didn't dislike them either) it's worth the effort to give them a listen. I do think it sounds like there is a desire to expand the scope of rap and hip-hop, but I just don't see that it really has a chance of expanding into the area of prog. The styles are just much to incongruous to ever truly combine effectively, or even realistically. Maybe someday, someone will find that "missing link" and mesh them triumphantly, but it just seems a bit of a reach to me. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 17:30
| There's also Sonic Sum who are very serious and artistic, but they also suck unfortunately. |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 17:47
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I like Outkast and for a "mainstreem" rap group they certanly are a very creative duo with some grate albums with some great arangments. (they have even sampled Focus - Focus III on there album ATLiens on the song Wheelz of Steel) and have a lot of Psychadelia, Jazz, Electronica, funk, rock and soul elements |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 18:41
| Outkast were certainly very creative and went outside the boxes. They also used a live band in concerts. |
Posted By: Xanthous
Date Posted: October 09 2009 at 18:43
| I love early 90's rap but it's way to commercialized now.Personally, I really enjoy listening to some Hip-Hop with funky beats but the whole pure rap music thing is just insanely awful. It should be a niche genre. Rap can be Progressive, but it certainly isn't at this time. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: October 09 2009 at 18:52
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Material (Bill Laswell's 70s/80s band) experimented in rock, funk and even rap. At least one of the rap songs was actually likeable (and the instrumentation was spiffy) but this was before rap lyrics took a turn for the grotesque.
------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 09 2009 at 19:46
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Organised Konfusion were another act that felt prog at times.
Oh but on the broader topic of alternative rap, has anyone ever listened to any nerdcore? Nerdcore are mostly online rappers who come from outside hip-hop and just rap about anything they like (the cliche is geeky pop culture) and use any musical influences they like too- it's rarely serious enough to qualify as prog but the wierd mash of subject matter and sounds do have a wiff of prog to them. Significant nerdcore acts include MC Lars, MC Chris, MC Frontalot, Optimus Rhymes, Beefy, MC Router and YT Cracker.
Oh and you should listen to MC Paul Barman because he is hilarious.
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: October 09 2009 at 20:44
| I read some time ago in the Yes official site that Jon Anderson was looking for someone with experience in Rap or Hip Hop for some project he had in mind. Never knew exactly what Anderson was thinking about and so far there's been no more news that I know of. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 09 2009 at 23:43
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If there's any DJs out there, the market's wide open on some hip-hop prog remixes.
I myself once made a beat out of Roulette Dares by The Mars Volta.
Speaking of TMV though, they've got some rap connects. They've collabed with El-P and Handsome Boy Modelling School and keyboardist Ikey Owens did a full-length with rapper 2Mex (under the name Look Daggers) called Suffer In Style.
Go to Youtube and check out the Look Daggers track Falcon Gentle, I really dug that.
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 01:36
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A rapper that is somewhat enjoyable to listen to but without connection to prog : P.O.S. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL5Wh4gnzyo&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL5Wh4gnzyo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5emV4WTi-Y&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5emV4WTi-Y&feature=related
The closer to prog I know is the hardcore band Candiria, with a black vocalist who is sort of schizophrenic as he has the typical hardcore screaming voice on the hardcore tunes and the rapping voice on the rap tunes of the same band...check out some excerpts here : http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/album-groupe-Candiria-nom_album-300_Percent_Density-l-fr.html#mp3 - http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/album-groupe-Candiria-nom_album-300_Percent_Density-l-fr.html#mp3
------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 01:57
| Yeah, POS has been getting a lot of attention this year. Not proggy, but his group, Doomtree, can be rather strange. |
Posted By: Rottenhat
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 05:00
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A bit offtopic, but...
On the Genesis 'Live in Rome' DVD it seemed that Collins had adapted a bit of the ' Rapper' image. Bald, the right clothes and even sometimes the body language of a rapper :)
------------- Language is a virus from outer space. -William S. Burroughs |
Posted By: Green Shield Stamp
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 07:50
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How about Graeme Edge 'rapping' on some of those early Moodies albums ('Red is grey and yellow white / But we decide which is right')?
Someone said earlier in this thread that 'we' (assuming he is speaking for all prog fans) don't like country music. I obviously don't belong in the 'we', because I think that 'Red Headed Stranger' by Willie Nelson is a definite 5 star album. ------------- Haiku Writing a poem With seventeen syllables Is very diffic.... |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 11:09
I don't belong to this category as well. there are some really interesting artists in this genre : johnny cash, townes van zandt, willis alan ramsey, new riders of the purple sage and many others... ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 11:32
------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 11:43
Agreed - I was going to mention this if nobody else had. Dalek are well worth checking out in their own right, incidentally; they record for Mike Patton's Ipecac label which should tell you something. The Faust collaboration is closer to Industrial than RIO to my ears, but still a fascinating experiment and a good album.
Interestingly, RIO/Avant seems to be more open to some of the possibilities opened up by turntablism and plunderphonics than other sub genres here; Otomo Yoshihide of Ground Zero and numerous other Japanoise projects is probably better known for his abilities on the twin decks than he is for his abilities as a guitarist.
Quite frankly, anybody who will casually dismiss an entire genre - be it rap, country, emo or punk - should go and play somewhere else and only return to PA when they've grown up a bit. ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 14:46
Therein lies the problem ... we tend to "define" things in terms of "progrock" ... and that is the greatest issue of it all ... heck ... a lot of Peter Hammill fits in prog folk ... but he is prog on account of a few songs? And no one here will even discuss one of the best poets on record ... Roy Harper ... so progressive he told PF to take a flying leap ... as he would not be allowed to be free and do what he wished to do ... which, in the end, is what "prog" is all about.
I stick by the fact that a lot of these definitions should be dropped as stupid ... if rock can be progressive so can everything else from the tomatoes in your kitchen to the worst rap out there! But, in an elitist group, I'm not sure that this definition is going to gain weight ... check out other threads where someone is discussing prog songs (!!!) and then prog everything you can think of ... but ... ohh my gawd ... how dare you think rap can be mentioned?
This bulletin board is NOT a "rock" place ... it is a MUSIC place ... and the tastes and people here have proven that many times over, specially the admins and folks in charge. Rap just happens to be ... not one of our favorites, but heck ... they haven't even heard rap in 1968 ... Gil Scott Heron and the Last Poets ... heck ... it was even in a movie ... Performance ... with Mick Jagger ... who actually did some things with the Stones with rap in mind ... but we will never discuss that! Heck .. Mick is probably one of the worst singers ever ... and he is one of the best rappers ever ...
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 15:46
Killah Priest is another interesting rapper, very deep and thoughtful. Gets lyrically proggish at times in my opinion, though his beats tend to be traditional hip-hop. Check out the cover to his new album Elizabeth- looks far more like a prog release than a rap one.
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Posted By: TheCaptain
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 17:09
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While rap may not have a place in prog, prog apparently has a place in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GBx4HJKU7s - rap. [Disclaimer: the language in that song would not fly here on the forums.] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GBx4HJKU7s - ------------- Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 17:29
| Also very proggy sounding is Dynamics Plus' Chao Legion series of albums which tell a continuous fantasy narrative with epic battles and broadswords and lists of characters and so on. Dynamics Plus makes his own comic books too. Coheed And Cambria anyone? |
Posted By: TheCaptain
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 17:53
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I preface this by saying I know little about rap, don't like rap and would be extremely put off if a prog rap subgenre got added to this site. Rap, from what I know, is spoken word put to a beat that is easy to bob your head to. The label of prog does not get applied based on popularity or lyrical content. Atypical lyrics in prog are an effect of prog, not a cause. The main argument I can see pro-prograp posts is that the lyrics are about fanciful subjects and don't deal with the standard rap content. You need more and better arguments dealing with the music rather than the words. Also, PA is a prog site, not a progressive ROCK site. There are genres here that could not be labeled as ROCK so that's not the problem. The problem is that, from my experience. prog and rap are mutually exclusive due to musicality. If someone could get me a definition of rap/hip hop I could dispel this nonsense quickly. ------------- Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 18:23
| I guess we just have different ideas about prog. Nothing is mutually exclusive to inclusion in my mind. |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: October 12 2009 at 10:31
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On Gong's Shapeshifter Daveid Allen does some rap. It works out quite nicely. It fit in to the concept of the Gong mythology and it's worthwhile stuff. I am not a fan of rap, but I can appreaciate the talent that goes into being a poet. Especially rap that is improvised. The ability to improvise and make words rhyme. That is an amazing talent that just comes right out of a rapper's head. It takes a lot of practice to pull it off. Sort of like a night out at a poet gathering. About 10 poets perform for you while you sip coffee and eat donuts |
During the course of the show, at least 4 of the poets will do rapping and it's very creative.Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 12 2009 at 10:54
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Daevid Allen also raps on "How To Stay Alive" from 2032. ------------- What? |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: October 12 2009 at 17:47
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i can't belive this, 3 pages discussion about rap music in Prog..there is no such thing..what is rap anyway, few beats and reciting something. so where can you find rap influence in prog,maybe Gildenlow's fast singing on some tracks? well, it is singing ,not reciting.. ------------- www.last.fm/user/angelmk 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 12 2009 at 17:51
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------------- What? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 12 2009 at 17:59
| Angel: Yeah, what CAN we be thinking, bringing traditionally unmixed musical forms together, that's not what prog is about at all. |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: October 12 2009 at 18:18
ok, what is prog about? ------------- www.last.fm/user/angelmk
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 12 2009 at 19:33
| Delineation and exclusion. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 13 2009 at 18:47
| Aceyalone is not generally someone I'd call a prog rapper, but he made a 1998 album I forgot to mention called A Book Of Human Language which heavily conceptual, deep, poetic and unusual, another good candidate for proto-prog-rap ;) |
Posted By: Jake Kobrin
Date Posted: October 13 2009 at 23:37
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I greatly applaud all who mentioned Dalek. I just love the band! Actually, they're the only hip-hop group I've ever really enjoyed. That's one of the best album openers I've ever heard I think... The way the noise comes in after the vocals only, amazing. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Neil-Kobrin/244687105562746" rel="nofollow - SUPPORT MY FATHER AND BECOME A FAN Jacob Kobrin Illustration |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: October 14 2009 at 03:19
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For those who want musicality (though they're not at all proggish) check out the superlative Roots, who eschew computers in favour of live instrumentation. Their drummer Questlove is a particular standout and they're about the only long standing rap act to never drop a suspect album- nine LPs in and no coasters and another one due later this year.
There are also plenty of artists who have in my opinion brought musicality to computer/turntable generated music- witness The Bomb Squad (most noted for their work with Public Enemy) who partly generated the raw, volatile sound they had by mixing/generating the track live rather than recording it in pieces and editing it together later. Also witness the previously mentioned El-P who is generally brilliant as producer, though the album he produced for Cannibal Ox, The Cold Vein, is his stand-out work. He goes so far beyond what the accepted limits of what you can do with a beat, a few synths and a sample it's not funny.
And we've been totally forgetting instrumental hip-hop artists. Instrumental DJ albums tend to be a bit proggish in a way because without an MC to worry about tripping up, a real sound-head DJ can go bananas and do whatever they want. RJD2, Cut Chemist, Peanut Butter Wolf, Prefuse 73, Nosaj Thing, DJ Shadow, Madlib there's dozens of these guys who make surprising and diverse hip-hop instrumental discs.
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Posted By: id obelus
Date Posted: January 29 2010 at 23:08
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So I discovered this forum because i get google alerts for 'Id Obelus'... I was flattered that Logan posted up an example of my music as a potential 'prog rap' candidate... I've been infatuated with rap music since the mid 80's... and since the age of 12 i've been "rapping".
Even though i'm an m.c. and "hip hop head" my musical taste branches out in many directions. I really fancy quite a bit of psychedelic and prog rock. I tend to gravitate towards art that is abstract and often dubbed weird or obscure.
with that being said... I'm glad there are some of you that are open to hip hop on this prog rock forum.
I'd like to share my infinite wisdom on the subject of "prog hip hop":
Here is an instrumental hip hop album from my very good friends, the Dreadnots. Depending on your views on sampling, you'll either love this or hate this. Jeremy (aka Oblio), like myself, is a big fan of 70's prog rock and he has the record collection to prove it. So, you're likely to recognize a lot of samples from obscure prog rock records in his music:
Robotic Hands of God - Voice of the Last Days
http://www.mediafire.com/?mnqdndkxun5 - http://www.mediafire.com/?mnqdndkxun5
i also would consider 'Themselves' a very progressive "hip hop" group... really genre defying actually:
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 04:35
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Have you guys ever listened to Gil Scott-Heron. He was a poet and sort of one of a kind in soul music (he played with a flautist), but he is also known as a pioneer for all the hip-hop movement. Just listen to this song out of his first album released in 1971 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix6Kz-1ev-4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix6Kz-1ev-4
This is rather unusual, as all other tracks are "sung". He did the same on the following album, with one track "rapped" while all others followed the pattern of soul music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az3NAoVInQQ&feature=PlayList&p=3ECF0D0D0A43726A&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=11 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az3NAoVInQQ&feature=PlayList&p=3ECF0D0D0A43726A&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=11
------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 05:08
 From Hungary, a mix of Balkan folk instrumentation (cimbalom especially) eastern european gypsy music, rap vocals, rock beats (played by a real drummer - not sampled loops) politicised lyrics (a Noam Chomsky speech sample is used heavily) and not a single reference to hoes, my main maaan, bitchez or gangbangin' anywhere. Features a stunning cover of the Beatles Revolution in a skanking reggae style. One of the best albums I've heard in years. (and I really loathe most of the rap based music I've ever heard) ------------- 
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 05:18
------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 06:18
I wondered whether Trip Hop had a place here? EDIT : A: No its not RAP idiot. But I will leave this anyway.  Really just an excuse to post this beautiful track. Listen if you haven't heard it before!
Interesting thread cheers ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 06:34
Will do (liked the clips I found on You Tube certainly) Thanks for the recommendation -------------
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Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 06:39
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Mentioned country - Let's ask yourself a question. Who likes rap/country, older/younger ones ? There are two major problems with rap music. Monotone music (often) and most importantly - they're rapping. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 07:41
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There is no prog rap yet - if you think about fusion of 100% full-brown prog and rap. However, if harpsichord/Mellotron-based song in 11/8 with rap lyrics on the top of it doesn't exist, it will. It's just a matter of time. ------------- |
Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 08:17
| I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but in Bearfish's 2009 release "Destined Solitaire", they have rap vocals in the middle of "In Real Life, There Is No Algebra", and it works quite well. It's only about thirty seconds of the song, but they don't let it be boring. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 08:26
| I know many people here won't agree with me, but I believe that Faith No More (one of the first bands to fuse rock and hip-hop) had more than a few progressive traits, especially on their album Angel Dust. |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 08:28
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That's true. And yet, it's my favourite song from favourite album. Well fitting to fast pace and crazy weirdness of whole song. Of course, it's not epic part of this song, nor the album, there are much better. Note that there's also death metal growling in one of the songs and more using of profanity language. Looks like quite experimental album to me. Mike Portnoy's vocal style is sometimes referred to as "rapping". Quick google search revealed this: http://www.petrucciforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49464 - http://www.petrucciforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49464 ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 09:35
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I just wanted to make sure we are all clear on one thing: When a vocalist doesn't sing the notes like a conventional melody, it could be deemed a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to state they're just rapping. Although say, the Fall are NOT prog, their There are many examples in Prog where vocalists who can clearly sing brilliantly, choose to exploit techniques like 'talking on pitch' (e.g. Gabriel on The Battle of Epping Forest/Get Em Out By Friday and Arthur Brown on Fire Poem) plus Sprechstimme/Sprechgesang (which I think I can hear in Demetrio Stratos and also Peter Hamill on occasion) Such departures from traditional pitched narrative when used appropriately, can enhance the dramatic and emotional content of the music. However, re the thread starter, perhaps it's the defining cyclic nature of dance music that prohibits Rap's development into Prog ? -------------
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 10:36
I've seen more than one person scrobble Massive Attack here.  |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 11:31
------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 11:44
Thanks for the Vote of Confidence A Person. I'm sure that Portishead will also have been 'Scrobbled' ?
 ^ Beasties are always very inventive - not so sure about Red Hot Chillies! ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: January 30 2010 at 11:54
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^
RHCP sold their soul to the devil.
------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Citizen Erased
Date Posted: January 31 2010 at 17:58
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If there's one thing that undergroup rap beats "prog rock" artists at everytime, it's the lyrics. Sage Francis is one of my favourites in particular. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F4KiuvLo6Y Really simple when you think about it but so poetic. It's not what you'd expect from a rapper. ------------- And lo, the mighty riffage was played and it was good 
<a href="www.last.fm/user/jonzo67" targe |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: January 31 2010 at 20:00
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Well I mean at it's purist form, rap is just poetry. And whoever said you cannot put poetry to prog rock? If done right I'm sure it'd sound amazing
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: February 01 2010 at 01:01
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Finally got my hands on Deep Puddle Dynamics' The Taste Of Rain Why Kneel, which is generally considered one of the most lyrically advanced rap records of all time... all I need now is time to digest it...
btw, how can you go past MC Del The Funky Homosapien's performance here, legendary stuff. This is the overture to Deltron 3030, the concept album about a future dystopia where music is controlled by sinister global corporations and our heroic hero Deltron Zero along with his DJ Dan The Automator defect from the mech troops and steal a spaceship to set off on a journey to take music back. 2112 anybody?
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Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: February 02 2010 at 09:11
One band, Pink Floyd. Who beats them in lyric section ? (Dard Side - Final Cut period, 5 albums) ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: February 02 2010 at 14:20
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The fact is that rap is the most powerful lyrical medium there is because of the number of syllables/words you can fit in. It would probably take a prog band an hour or more to do what Canibus does here in 7 minutes:
BTW PROG RAP ALERT! There are three changes into different beats in the following track. He even name drops Niels Bohr.
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Posted By: peart_lee_lifeson
Date Posted: February 26 2010 at 23:36
| Rap's place in Prog is with Daniel Gildenlow |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 15:28
| You guys have to check out this rapper called Myka 9. Maaaaaaaaaaaaaad. His Magic Heart Genies group is also completely bonkers. Very wierd/progressive rap. |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 15:35
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^ I would have said Mike Patton ! Anyway, I find many similarities between PoS and FNM, both musically and vocally speaking. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: February 28 2010 at 15:45
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Candiria (here in PA). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_QKPX-7Kxw&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_QKPX-7Kxw&feature=related ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: March 01 2010 at 02:18
| Also checking out the new record from Rob Swift, The Architect. A DJ album but quite a different one, doesn't sound like typical hip-hop beats at all. Once it really gets going on track 5 (the first four are short intro type thingies that sort of set up an atmosphere of spookiness and wierdness with the ocassional old school beat) it becomes more or less a continuous piece of music that segues into different parts almost unnoticeably and makes very unusual use of classical music samples- those are nothing new to hip-hop but the high, creepy, droning way Swift deploys them is. It's almost entirely instrumental but rapper Breez Evahflowin turns up for two tracks, though he may as well not have, the focus here is and should be on Swift's cuts. Some tunes are spread over several tracks- Lower Level has three movements and Rabia has three movements and a prelude. I smell prog! |