Why Tull? You silly buggers
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Topic: Why Tull? You silly buggers
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Subject: Why Tull? You silly buggers
Date Posted: November 05 2009 at 17:33
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A thread started last week has got me thinking and annoyed at Tulls decisions to record about 20 songs in each of 1971 and 1974 and only include half the material on each album from those years. But the annoying part is they chose what i believe to be the only weak songs for the albums plus only 1/3 of the remaining high quality songs. As a listener of mainly prog/fusion from the 1968-1983 period I find it frustrating that such a great band who can write 10 high quality clever, catchy prog related tunes in any given year can choose the weaker material for the album which advertises the band. Just looking at the lists below personally I believe the band purposely wrote some commercial songs for albums for popularity. Normally someone who writes such quality wouldn't write simpler pop songs, but I believe they purposely wrote some simpler music below their natural high standard in the aim at selling to the big population of music listeners. I'm not the only prog fan who was a bit disappointed with Warchild and some of Aqualung because as many can see the quality of alot of the songs they wrote those 2 years and the quality of TAAB is very high. The albums warchild and aqualung don't show tulls true colours, but only in 3-5 songs on each. I would have rather see albums with the best quality songs rather than a mixed bag of tull songs and non tull songs hehe. Here's what I think of 1971 and 1974. Lets see. I'll highlight the ones I really like in bold and the ones i quite like in red. The rest of the songs are ok. But they just don't say much to me in regards to composition. In no particular order I'll list the songs. When you can write so many good songs, I don't see the purpose in writing pop songs unless you are looking for extra popularity. I see Ian the genius writing some songs he probably didn't really enjoy writing. Maybe it's just me. What do you think?
 1971 1-up the pool
2-dr bogenbroom
3-for later
4-wondring again
5-aqualung
6-cross eyed mary
7-up to me
8-wondring aloud
9-cheap day return
10-mother goose 11-life is a long song(remix)
12-lick your fingers clean
13-wind up(quad)
14-locomotive breath(quad) 15-life is a long song
16-nursie
17-my god
18-wind up
19-locomotive breath
20-hymn 43
21-slipstream
1974
1-rainbow blues
2-glory row
3-paradise steakhouse
4-quartet
5-march the mad scientist
6-saturation
7-sealion 2
8-warchild
9-queen and country
10-solitaire
11-skating away 12-warchild waltz
13-back door angels
14-ladies
15-bungle in the jungle(remix)
16-two fingers
17-the third hoorah
18-bungle in the jungle 19-sealion ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Replies:
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 05 2009 at 17:49
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I agree that many of the bonus cuts are as good as anything on said albums, and that perhaps Aqualung and Warchild could have a bit more consistent if the lesser work had been left out, hard to say.. I do love cuts like 'Paradise Steakhouse', on the other hand I also love 'Hymn 43 and the original 'Sealion'
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Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: November 05 2009 at 17:55
I prefer all 7 bonus tracks on warchild over about 5 of the chosen tracks. I also prefer all the 6 songs remaining from 1971(on LITP) over all the Side 2 songs on Aqualung. If I was making an album I'd put the very best tunes on it. I like Sealion, but some of the lyrics bring it down a touch. Sealion 2, has that Monty Python sillyness to the lyrics that make it more listenable to me and the music is more out there and so true to English prog. Sealion 2 is a ripper to my ears, it's a song about nothing but the great music ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Atavachron wrote:Posted By: Progologue
Date Posted: November 05 2009 at 20:52
| Tull could have had super prog albums in 71 and 74. just like 72 and 73 and also 77 and 78. Could have been 5 LP's full of super prog |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 08:12
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 09:59
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I don`t think Ian ever sold out. Remember A started out as an Ian Anderson solo album. Then the big shots thought it would do better as a Tull album. The ELP album Love beach was a result of a record boss "suggesting" that they do shorter radio oriented tracks. Cčst la vie. Myself there`s not much that JT has recorded that I don`t care for ( Under Wraps is even among my faves ). If there`s a band that never really sold out it was Jethro Tull. If you`ve ever attended a JT concert (I`ve seen them about 7 times ) they always come up with suprises in their set lists. On the A tour they only played 3 tracks from the A album when I saw them. The rest was all old material. ------------- |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 10:51
I don't doubt your word and this is a point well taken. My opinion derives from how I took things for face value. When Under Wraps was released and I first heard it, I got the impression that they were changing with the times. The album had an 80's sound and was polished with that style. I thought that Crest Of A Knave was more of a back to basics approach for Tull. Although the songs that sounded like Dire Straits, I could not relate to. So it is very much my preference but, I always felt that when a band adapts a keyboard sound or a drum beat that is very much used in commercial music of the particular decade, it's their job to do so in order to survive financially. Look at Ignus Fatuus by White Willow. There is no homogenized formula for keyboard settings of the 90's on that record. They are just taking a style from the past and doing something else with it. I don't see anything wrong with that. It's expansion if anything. Everyone adapts a style from somewhere but, that doesn't mean a wall has to be put up to prevent musicians from breaking rules. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 11:16
If there is one Tull album that hasn't aged well, it's UW, no contest. Crest Of A Knave sounds like Stormwatch by comparison.
Actually, I don't care for Rock Island, either. I could never get into that one. The concert was good, though (and they had an "unknown" band called It Bites opening for them!).
A guess: "Black Sunday," "Fylingdale Flyer" and "Pine Marten's Jig"? ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 13:30
| Well it will be interesting to hear the new versions but I'm not optimistic on any improvements on the originals in view of Anderson's weak voice these days and if they have the sterile production of Roots To Branches and .Com. |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: November 06 2009 at 16:25
If you trim 1971 and 1974 down to your fave 10 songs, you see how strong Tull were at compositions. Even Benefit(the version i got) doesn't include my 2 fave tull songs from 1970. They are Witches promise and Teacher. I also love Just trying to be which was another which missed the album. Stand up is similar with Living in the past, Sweet dream and Driving song as well as Stormwatch with it's 4 cool bonus tracks too. The remasters really make up for missing gems(except Aualung which should have had those remaining LITP songs from 1971). You really can't go wrong with remasters though. Stand up. Benefit, Aqualung, TAAB, APP, Warchild, LITP, SFTW, Heavy horses, Stormwatch, A, Broadsword all with their bonus tracks are minimum 4 star discs. I would have loved for Broadsword to be remasterd with a 2nd disc including the full acoustic version of jackalynn, which I much prefer as well as Motoreyes(which i like). Other songs added would be No step, Drive on the young side of life, The curse, Crew nights, Lights out, Commons brawl, Rythm in gold. Could have had about 28 songs and a remix of some of the drum tracks to make the disc more consistent(and a better listen) would have been cool even though I'm not overly fond of half of the 28 songs. With a better drum sound, the songs would come up better. Songs such as jackalynn(the well known version) , Beastie and Pussy willow put me off due to their drum sound. They don't match the rest of the album which has a reasonable drum mix . Tulls albums from 1981-1991 have inconsistent drum tracks. You have songs on an album not all played in the same studio. Some of the songs have different drummers and some songs have drum machine. If only Mark Craney hung around for all the 80s, we'd have all songs with 1 drummer with a good sound  ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: November 08 2009 at 11:19
I'd d really like to hear something along the lines of .com. ------------- |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 17 2009 at 19:57
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Hi,
I don't want any of that stuff ...
Tell Ian to stop being a jerk and give us a couple of those 25 minute versions of "My God" ... with him out of breath and crying for more ... those beat anything he has ever done and too much of it is just a bunch of radio songs ... that have as much meaning as anything I say here!
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Posted By: Progologue
Date Posted: November 18 2009 at 20:27
My God is more commercially simplistic than all those songs in black. My God live is even more of a snoozer.
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Posted By: Matte
Date Posted: November 19 2009 at 10:27
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I canīt understand why JT didnīt include Wondring Again on Aqualung. Itīs actually one of their best songs and it would fit logically on the B-side of the album.
Other highlights that never made it to the originals are Quartet and A Small Cigar - such charming and well structured tunes that so few were able to hear.
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Posted By: catfishrob
Date Posted: November 19 2009 at 16:05
Okay I know what you're saying about record companies and I agree with it, but speaking of Metallica, let's not forget that JT won the Grammy's in '89. I don't think they were ever struggling that much to get public attention. Also, they had been producing stuff that had been pretty far out there. You can't tell me they were trying to toe the line, but yet released Thick As A Brick. That was right around the same time, so I don't think they could have had those sort of issues with their label. If they did, they could have gone to another label that would let them do whatever they wanted. I just don't think that argument rationalizes anything. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 19 2009 at 18:38
With one exception ... you can't buy the feeling and emotion that was in those performances ... and the majority of songs have no soul by comparison ... a lot of words and opinions, and not enough music in the soul ... to satisfy.
In the bootlegs that were around those days with it, you will never ... EVER ... EVER ... again, hear a better flute play on the face of this earth!
If Ian thinks that some words and opinions and some "composition" is what makes his music better ... that's probably why I have not been there since "Passion Play" ... his last important and valid piece of work. The rest are just a bunch of radio/commercial songs ... and if that is what turns you on ... I really think we should remove jethro Tull from the annals of "prog" ... that's not to say that it is not good music ... I'm just not interested in radio and 4 minutes orgasms anymore ... |
Posted By: Progologue
Date Posted: November 19 2009 at 20:34
I don't think so
 Heavy horses and Songs from the wood are top prog folk albums. A is more is a prog rock album with more synths and violin. Stormwatch is more on the heavy folk side and the bonus tracks really make this a strong cd. That makes Tull one of my fave prog bands of the 1977-1980 era. I really like the Warchild bonus material too. Plenty of proggy rock songs. It's on 1975 and 76 where they didn't seem to produce many goodies imo
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 19 2009 at 20:44
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actually I'd have to say Tull did not have a truly weak moment between 69 and 79, especially compared to many peers, and over the decades JT has probably been the most consistent prog band despite poor moments (as Wraps)..they've never given up on prog like many [Genesis, ELP, Rush, Floyd], still rock in concert, and continue to maintain their integrity
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Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: November 20 2009 at 03:14
Wond'ring again is very nice. But so is Up the pool, Dr Bogenbroom, Life is a long song, For Later. Can't really split them. Love em all. Same with Quartet, Saturation, Glory row, Sealion 2, Rainbow blues, Paradise steakhouse. These are mainly my fave tull songs from 1971 and 1974. ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: November 20 2009 at 05:47
What? Which prog you say?
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: November 20 2009 at 05:56
| I want talk about " Backdoor angels". If you note to rythme you find very intresting things. bass-drums in powerful shape with organ and then guitar play solo over that. this combination repeat in "queen and country". You can see professional " modulation"s in these 2 songs. I love warchild. |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 15:05
Good song. Would have been cool if Warchild was a double album. At least the proggers and poppers would have been happy . Maybe the so called unreleased songs Beaches 1 and 2 could have been released on it as well as March the mad scientist which is also from 1974. That would have made 20 songs ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 15:09
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I think Warchild was clearly on its way to being a concept album of some kind, but got deisassembled along the way and became a collection of cuts.. still a great record, especially the remaster
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 15:12
m-guh ? |
Posted By: Progologue
Date Posted: November 21 2009 at 15:55
That is 2 double albums as you say. Would have been a much better look at the band to have all their great songs on 1 cd and also the commercial ones. I would have preferred 2 albums of the best 10-12 songs each with a good track order alterning heavy and soft. For example:
Aqualung-
aqualung
up the pool
cross eyed mary
wond'ring aloud
up to me
for later
locomotive breath
dr bogenbroom
my god
life is a long song (that remix is alot better as you say)
cheap day return
lick your fingers clean
wond'ring again
mother goose
That's 14 songs, but mainly strong songs and my interest would be maintained all the way through the album. A better version and much more interesting 2nd half to the album
 Warchild-
warchild
march the mad scientist
paradise steakhouse
quartet
rainbow blues
skating away
saturation
glory row
sealion 2 (but for the album it woul be called sealion)
only solitaire
queen and country
warchild waltz
Now that would be a much better and proggier version of the album
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 23 2009 at 20:49
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Hi,
So .. now we should add a new category for the prog archives ... "hitradio prog" ... and of course the ultimate band for that oen would be jethro Tull ... heck ... might as well put Genesis in there and ELP and Yes ...
Ohhh btw, these people were instrumental in helping FM radio make its mark in the USA ... at a time that FM radio was intentionally trashing the fast paced AM radio and it's top ten routines ... and sadly ... 10 years later, almost all of these stations were bought out in America by the record company conglomerates that don't give a cahoot about music ... heck ... you're not likely to hear any Jethro Tull these days other than Aqualung ... and even then it is another one of those moron stations playing 70's hits!
Sadly enough ... thinking that the only thing that is "prog" is the bunch of the bands that got on the air in those days, and not as many today ... to define what became known as "prog" ... in essence has killed the ability of the audience to enjoy actually listening to music ... instead of hearing the "fans" ... I'm wondering if the biggest issue here is people feeling left out because their favorite band is no longer "tops" ...
Yes, Jethro Tull has a lot of music, and yes, these are very nice songs and stuff ... but sorry ... it's all they are to me ... just songs ... and "prog" ... by its very nature is not about "songs" ... it's about MUSIC ...
It could be said that it's the same thing, but sadly I don't think that fandom, is going to be the definition of music that lasts out 500 years and becomes the Beethovens and Mozarts of your day and mine ...
Ian has a lot better music in his heart ... but he has sold his sould to commercial music ... just because it has an instrument here and there in an off-time beat here and there ... does NOT make it prog. That would be way too simplistic of a definition and ... in the end ... would generalize the quality of this music to the point of making it irrelevant and unimportant.
Jethro Tull has some good things ... so do a lot of other people, and we can even add David Bowie to the mix, who was actually quite adventurous with his own music ... and should be considered somewhat progressive, however, it was still in the pop area ... same with Roxy Music, even Queen, 10CC ... and so many others. That's the area that Jethro Tull should remain ... not as a prog stalwart.
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Posted By: Progologue
Date Posted: November 24 2009 at 00:01
Prog is jazz/classical rock. This can be either played in a 4 minute song or a 10-20 minute song. If the song isn't controlled by guitar and it has a smart melody with an even input of instruments with good bass ideas and some sort of complexity. Then it's prog
. Prog doesn't have to be inventing or experimenting and it doesn't have to be in a 10 minute + format. If you're a natural at making smart rock music with jazz/classical influence and you don't listen to hard rock or metal then you'll naturally produce prog. SFTW and Heavy horses is folk based prog. APP and TAAB are similar but less on the folk side. Alot of the songs from 1971 and 1974 are in a similar mould. Smartly arranged tunes. Side B of Aqualung is more of a bunch of commercial hard rock songs, Side A is the heavy folk prog side and the other folk prog is found on the 2nd side of LITP. Warchild has a number of commercially friendly tunes, but the bonus tracks are more on the non pop prog side. A is full of prog tunes too |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: November 24 2009 at 17:56
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Tull 1969-71 were a prog related heavy folk rock band. Their heavyish songs were prog related in a way Purple and sabbath were back then. They definately weren't hard rock apart from Wind up and maybe Locomotive breath. But songs such as Cross eyed Mary, Aqualung, Teacher, To cry you a song, For later, Sweet dream, Living in the past are not your standard 1 noted continuous bass playing hard rock songs. They have medievil classical influences all through them with a jazz approach. The folk songs are not traditional folk songs, they are folk rock songs. A fusion of 2 styles, similar to Zeppelins folk of that time. I always thought a fusion of musical styles was considered prog. It was either jazz/classical and rock or folk and rock back then ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |