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Who "Invented" Jazz Rock/Fusion?

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Topic: Who "Invented" Jazz Rock/Fusion?
Posted By: darkshade
Subject: Who "Invented" Jazz Rock/Fusion?
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 01:35
this has been debated for decades. Miles Davis is wrongfully credited as the inventor, though i think most people on this board are aware that he popularized it with In A Silent Way and Bitches Brew. he also obviously made the biggest contribution to the genre, for if it werent for him, the genre wouldnt be as it is now.

If one does his research, one will find the earliest example of jazz-fusion in a song by Herbie Hancock called "Cantaloupe Island" (1964) in which he wrote a modal jazz song set to a funky beat.

he also releaed Fat Albert Rotunda (1969) which was heavily influenced by R&B with lots of jazz influence.

before Fat Albert, Gary Burton released an album called The Time Machine (1966) where he experimented with some rock rhythms, and the first true fusion album being Duster (1967) also by Burton. I have not heard TTM, but have heard some tracks from Duster, though it's hard for me to call it a true fusion album IMO, though there are moments for sure.

Back to Miles Davis, his album Miles in the Sky (1968) introduced electric piano, electric bass, and electric guitar, all precursors to jazz-rock, but the album is still mostly jazz in his mid-sixties hard bop/avant-garde style. Davis' drummer at the time, Tony Williams, is credited by Miles himself for exposing the trumpeter to popular funk and rock bands of the time, and recommending electric instruments and youth-inspired rock rhythms.

Frank Zappa and The Mothers of Invention's second album Absolutely Free (1967) features a couple of tracks (notably Invocation and Ritual Dance of the Young Pumpkin) featuring extended improvisation in a 'jazzy' rock context, definitely sounds like jazz-fusion.

Larry Coryell (who played with Burton in the late 60s) is also credited for being one of the originators of jazz-rock. The Free Spirits band is considered the first jazz-rock band, and his first solo album Lady Coryell (1968) has elements of jazz-rock.

You also had rock bands like Cream and The Grateful Dead experimenting with jazz  as early as 1966 or 1967. Also James Brown in the late 60s, mixing jazz harmonies and melodies with funky/soul rhythms.

another point i'd like to make is all this started happening either right before or right after John Coltrane died. i dont think i need to explain the importance of this, im sure others may do so anyway. it's almost like his death sparked this creative change in the music, whether the musicians realized it or not. maybe even he could have been an indirect inventor of jazz-rock, or at least one of the biggest influences on the early stages of the genre.

either way, ive listed the facts, now it is time for discussion. for me, it's hard to say who was the first. i want to say Davis, but i know he wasnt the first to think of it, if anything it was Tony Williams who then influenced Davis to do his thing. Burton has the recording dates to 'prove' he was the first. FZ was an early one too (forget Hot Rats Wink) always ahead of his time.

i'd love to hear others opinions on the subject. this could turn into quite a juicy discussion.


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Replies:
Posted By: Valdez
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 01:36
perez prado

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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 01:44
depends what is meant by JazzRock, IMO Tony Williams' Emergency (1969) is the first fully incorporated document of real jazz meets real rock









Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 01:46
Miles perhaps with Girls of the Kilimanjaro or however you spell it.


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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 01:52
I'd think Larry Coryell with his group The Free Spirits (formed in 66), and Gary Burton (Time Machine, 1966 and Jeremy Steig with Jeremy and the Satyrs (released 1968) are all noteworthy.  Miles Davis electric jazz  Miles in the Sky is also noteworthy, though I think of his first true one as In a Silent Way (maybe his first true Fusion album).

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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.


Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 01:55
Antonio Carlos Jobin Tongue

No wait, Thomas Edison.

Provocative topic perhaps, but like progressive rock, it is the result of a confluence of influences rather than the product of a specific artist.  And like we can agree on what anything is anyway.


Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 02:06
Check out this Sun Ra music from 1956 (from Supersonic Jazz):




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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.


Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 02:07
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Antonio Carlos Jobin Tongue



haha YES!

i just learned about him in my Jazz History class this past semester. Bossa Nova was a big step in the direction of jazz fusion. i also actually meant to mention soul jazz guys like Jimmy Smith and Bill Doggett. Also early hard bop from guys like Art Blakey had the fusion mindset

however, when i say jazz-fusion, im talking about jazz-rock/fusion, or jazz-funk, or jazz-fusion ala late 60s and 1970s.

by the way, why are so many people up this late? or early??? Tongue


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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm



Posted By: Synchestra
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 02:14
Gene Simmons? He invented everything else y'know Wink

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'Yeah, thats.. Whatever you're talking about for ya' - Zapp brannigan


Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 02:22
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I'd think Larry Coryell with his group The Free Spirits (formed in 66), and Gary Burton (Time Machine, 1966 and Jeremy Steig with Jeremy and the Satyrs (released 1968) are all noteworthy.  Miles Davis electric jazz  Miles in the Sky is also noteworthy, though I think of his first true one as In a Silent Way (maybe his first true Fusion album).


I was going to say In A Silent Way but in terms of tonality it doesnt doesn't differ much from Filles De Kilimanjaro.But that aside Miles in the sky is the better choice.

I wouldn't consider Gene Simmon a fusion player but more Avant Jazz IMO




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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 02:28
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:



by the way, why are so many people up this late? or early??? Tongue

Excellent Sun Ra link from Logan there.  You have made a very good case there.  Yet another old artist I need to explore.  Know him by name but not by music.

I am up early, because I can't freakin' sleep, LOL go figure.  I'm working on it, dang it. LOL

Hey discussing music is much more important than sleep anyway. Tongue


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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...



Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 02:29
Originally posted by Synchestra Synchestra wrote:

Gene Simmons? He invented everything else y'know Wink


you mean this guy? Wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin%27_Gene_Simmons


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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm



Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 02:31
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:



by the way, why are so many people up this late? or early??? Tongue

Excellent Sun Ra link from Logan there.  You have made a very good case there.  Yet another old artist I need to explore.  Know him by name but not by music.




he's also another guy who's discography is endless, one doenst know where to start


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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm



Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 02:31
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by Synchestra Synchestra wrote:

Gene Simmons? He invented everything else y'know Wink


you mean this guy? Wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin_Gene_Simmons - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin%27_Gene_Simmons


it didnt show anything.


....or was that the point?


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http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow">




Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 02:33
Originally posted by mrcozdude mrcozdude wrote:

Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by Synchestra Synchestra wrote:

Gene Simmons? He invented everything else y'know Wink


you mean this guy? Wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin_Gene_Simmons - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin%27_Gene_Simmons


it didnt show anything.


....or was that the point?


the hyperlink doesnt work for some reason, but it's 'fixed'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin%27_Gene_Simmons


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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm



Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 02:36
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by mrcozdude mrcozdude wrote:

Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by Synchestra Synchestra wrote:

Gene Simmons? He invented everything else y'know Wink


you mean this guy? Wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin_Gene_Simmons - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin%27_Gene_Simmons


it didnt show anything.


....or was that the point?


the hyperlink doesnt work for some reason, but it's 'fixed'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin%27_Gene_Simmons


Still doesn't

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin_Gene_Simmons - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin%27_Gene_Simmons

For some reason that link works ^ and yours doesn't although their the same

Probably just my computer sucking


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http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow">




Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 02:37
Originally posted by mrcozdude mrcozdude wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I'd think Larry Coryell with his group The Free Spirits (formed in 66), and Gary Burton (Time Machine, 1966 and Jeremy Steig with Jeremy and the Satyrs (released 1968) are all noteworthy.  Miles Davis electric jazz  Miles in the Sky is also noteworthy, though I think of his first true one as In a Silent Way (maybe his first true Fusion album).


I was going to say In A Silent Way but in terms of tonality it doesnt doesn't differ much from Filles De Kilimanjaro.But that aside Miles in the sky is the better choice.

I wouldn't consider Gene Simmon a fusion player but more Avant Jazz IMO




You can go back farther with Davis -- I really think Miles Davis' 1967 track, "Circle in the Round" deserves a mention (the start of his electric period).  I was looking for a clip to share.


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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.


Posted By: mrcozdude
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 02:38
Ok now mine doesn't.Oh well.

Sorry,What a way to ruin your joke. LOL


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http://www.last.fm/user/cozfunkel/" rel="nofollow">




Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 02:38
Originally posted by mrcozdude mrcozdude wrote:

Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by mrcozdude mrcozdude wrote:

Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by Synchestra Synchestra wrote:

Gene Simmons? He invented everything else y'know Wink


you mean this guy? Wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin_Gene_Simmons - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin%27_Gene_Simmons


it didnt show anything.


....or was that the point?


the hyperlink doesnt work for some reason, but it's 'fixed'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin%27_Gene_Simmons


Still doesn't

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin_Gene_Simmons - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin%27_Gene_Simmons

For some reason that link works ^ and yours doesn't although their the same

Probably just my computer sucking


yeah i dont know, same thing is happening to me, i cant edit that post anymore either. maybe it's too late at night. whatever it's extremely off-topic anyway (both Gene Simmons guys haha)


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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm



Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 02:59
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:



by the way, why are so many people up this late? or early??? Tongue

Excellent Sun Ra link from Logan there.  You have made a very good case there.  Yet another old artist I need to explore.  Know him by name but not by music.




he's also another guy who's discography is endless, one doesn't know where to start


Thanks, yeah I think Sun Ra's "India" is a great piece (terrific track recorded in '56).  And there are lots of good places to start with Sun Ra depending upon which phase one wants to get into.  For a more accessible album for Fusion minded people I might suggest his album from 1978, Languidity.  1965's Secrets of the Sun might be a good place to start.  Actually, Jazz In Silhouette from 1959 might be a really good place to start.

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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: December 27 2009 at 17:07
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

depends what is meant by JazzRock, IMO Tony Williams' Emergency (1969) is the first fully incorporated document of real jazz meets real rock
 
^^^^^Probably this...


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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: December 28 2009 at 21:32
There were a few Miles Davis titles released years before "In a Silent Way", which displayed the direction that he would eventually take in rock/fusion. I suppose that it may be discreet to some but for me It is present.


Posted By: JROCHA
Date Posted: December 28 2009 at 21:53
I would also say Miles Davis, then mentioned above Tony Williams. He did drum with Miles on In a Silent Way also. Chicago were one of the first rock bands to have a horn section. Traffic dabbled a bit in jazz rock...


Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: December 28 2009 at 22:13
Perhaps consideration should be given to Butterfield Blues Band's East-West album, from 1966.  They do after all cover Nat Adderly's Work Song.  Then they go on to reinvent blues-rock with the title track.  Interestingly, and I do mean interestingly, they also do a cover of Nesmith's (as in the Monkees) Mary Mary, which kicks some serious ass. 
 
I'm no expert, but I do not know of any earlier instance of a rock band recording a jazz song (unless we count Broadway tunes).  Dunno, I don't recall the name, there was some band in the mid-60's, maybe The Buckinghams, that covered Cannonball Adderly's (brother of Nat)  Mercy Mercy Mercy (written by Joe Zawinul).  Not sure if this would pre-date Butterfield's Work Song.
 
I guess the point being that there were a number of rock/blues bands doing jazz songs long before ya woulda thought.
 
   


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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.


Posted By: Trademark
Date Posted: December 28 2009 at 22:35
Don't have the time to really dig into it right now but I'm surprised that Nucleus and the Nucleus/Soft machine connections haven't been brought up. All  in the 1967-1970 time frame.


Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: December 29 2009 at 12:34
What appears to be a precursor to jazz/rock fusion, Soft Machine played jazz with electric guitar and bass as early as 1963. This is evidenced on Man In A Deaf Corner.
 
However, there may be little - if any - recorded evidence of the first jazz/rock fusion that probably took place in the underground and club circuit as early as 1965-66. I mean, had Soft Machine used a distorted guitar back then, I guess that would be jazz/rock.


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 17:09
Hi,
 
Now you know why I don't like labels ... and who started what ...
 
I actually think that Stravinsky may have had a hand in all this ... but then, it's hard to think that Benjamin Britten and some other composers out there were not aware of the effect of popular music and in particular specific instruments were already having on music in general ... I would think that Stravinsky would have seen a jazz club in his time and realized ... that instrument is blowing out the instrumentation ... and then end up in his pad and created a "Firebird Suite" ... which originally was considered hellinsh on many an orchestra player and too difficult. ...
 
The jazz folks in America, and the ones that could not make it here that parked themselves in Europe, more than likely were the folks that got this started ... and that's not to take away anything from Sun Ra or Miles Davis or Larry Coryell ... but the writing was already on the wall by the time that Miles Davis was able to do his thing ... and he KNEW IT ... and that is probably why he was able to do what he did and get away with it, and now it's considered progressive even by any standards and the majority of "jazz" today still is not as free as what Miles did! Or Sun Ra!
 
I tend to think that by the time that Larry Coryell and Frank Zappa get around, it is more about the music being electric than anything else ... most of Miles was still "accoustic" ... and as the electric guitar took shape and got better known and the effects that were being used at the time, helped develop the next genre.
 
Though rarely discussed here, but very visible in Europe is the fact that there are music schools that actually did a lot of experiments ... to help foster some new idioms ... and one of the most famous examples is Agitation Free ... who actually had a grant to do some of the work they ended up doing, and much of it was trying to expand western musical concepts in jazz and rock to see how they matched up with eastern music.
 
And there is a relevant fact here ... there is a slight parallel that can be brought from the eastern musics in ragas -- where the idea is to bring out the inner expression, and some of the earlier jazz expressions that were being recorded ... which were NOT songs, and were longer by design ... and this is where Miles and Sun Ra come from and are so important ... and then one can expand that ... two inches ... when it became electric ... and the rest is history and right there ...
 
I think the first time I remember the term "fusion" used was around Chick Corea, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Frank Zappa (although most did not like him because he was good at lifting the finger if he had to!) (... and he was a better and learned musician than most of them anyway !!!! ) ... and then what I call the New York scene, of which Coryell is a part ... and I'm sure that the clubs in there were quite advanced compared to the rest of the country.
 
But we have to take it easy ... when asking these questions, since the only difference in the majority of all these musics is the amplification and a pedal ... that if you took that away would sound just like Miles or SunRa ... and that is the part of the classical/academic view that is hurting the ability for us to elevate more than half of the music we love into a realm ... that doesn't exist per se (prog) ... when the main thing to note is the electricity behind it!
 
And this is my main concern here ,... when no one can spend time showing how progressive folks like Incredible String Band were, or Tangerin Dream ... when compared to a lot of others ... but again, you take the electricity out, and ISB survives .. others don't ... but they are not KC! or ELP! ... see the problem?
 
Compositionally, though they surpass the majority of the well known names in prog!
 
But there is a rather difficult thing here ... academia doesn't like "improvisation" and the true fact is that ALL music comes from some form of improvised design and most composer's ability to identify their feeling with a note or two ... that is now ... considered not valid within a jazz/rock context ... and a lot of it has to do with the fact that some of it is composed ... and I tend to think that is bunk, since it is all about a feeling and who is to say that Mozart has a feeling and Eric doesn't? Or vice versa ... and later, we can transcrive their music ... but you can not transcrive quite that accurately that few precious moments of a guitar duet with Gregg Allman, which are the part in music that academia/classical music has issues with it ... and the history of music, you will notice does not show us big names of players ... almost all of the names are the composers ... which is like saying that a virtuosi does not a music make ... and that is the hard part for an exercise like this ... but it is a good one and you and I and others here on this board need to do a significantly better job to ensure that this is seen and appreciated.
 
And you can see how rock/jazz/fusion/electronics have blown out the equation to smithereens ... and now the virtuosity is clearly seen all around, instead of being "hidden" and only particular to one person ...


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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com


Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: December 30 2009 at 17:40


Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: December 31 2009 at 10:08
Originally posted by crimson87 crimson87 wrote:



very interesting 'argument'. this also maybe the first 'prog' record too.

1959 was quite a year for jazz


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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm



Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: December 31 2009 at 10:22
Interesting reading guys, we try to break this down on PA in our JR definition, but there are some serious sentence misplacements in that section that need to be addressed, maybe today, ha ha. You can never go wrong mentioning Sun Ra, you might also want to check out the bio for Don Ellis here on PA too.


Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: December 31 2009 at 10:36
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Antonio Carlos Jobin Tongue

No wait, Thomas Edison.


I was going to say Robert Fripp.  Tongue


Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: January 02 2010 at 22:02
If we REALLY want to dial it back, an argument could be made for  Django Reinhardt and his band!   His band Quintette du Hot Club de France laid the groundwork for many modern-day fusion formats, incorporating Grapelli's violin and Django's very hot lead playing!  

King Crimson, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Jean Luc Ponty and others all borrowed heavily from this formula of the 1930's! 

Now, if only Django had access to Bob Fripp's Les Paul and pedalboard!    


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 02 2010 at 22:10
Grappelli&Reinhardt were tremendous..Grappelli solo amazing too, you realize how hard it actually is to play jazz on a violin


Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: February 02 2010 at 17:23
Colosseum-they are the first group that was truly jazz-rock.


Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: February 02 2010 at 17:29
Frank Zappa ? I hear a fusion of rock, jazz and contemporary classical music on Absolutely free, recorded in 1967.


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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)


Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: February 03 2010 at 23:48
Cream, maybe?

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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: February 05 2010 at 07:30
One thing that I've always thought of is that Bitches Brew is to jazz-rock what ITCOCK is to prog rock
 
 
 
 
Both albums had predecessors, but these are the ones that put the genre on the musical map.


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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: February 05 2010 at 07:49
Critics and music historians?

(sorry, I've always wanted to make facile replies to this sort of thing)


Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: February 06 2010 at 22:09
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Antonio Carlos Jobin Tongue



haha YES!

i just learned about him in my Jazz History class this past semester. Bossa Nova was a big step in the direction of jazz fusion. i also actually meant to mention soul jazz guys like Jimmy Smith and Bill Doggett. Also early hard bop from guys like Art Blakey had the fusion mindset

however, when i say jazz-fusion, im talking about jazz-rock/fusion, or jazz-funk, or jazz-fusion ala late 60s and 1970s.

by the way, why are so many people up this late? or early??? Tongue


God,  I hope you are joking about bossa nova. Seriously.

I  really do not know why people put bossa nova with jazz. Yes, some artists made experiments with jazz, but it is definitely NOT the essence of the genre. Bossa nova is a genre in itself.


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