"Bombastic"?  Because Keith Emerson played a grand piano and toured with that beast of a Moog synthesizer?  Because Carl Palmer's drum kit was on a stand that rotated?  Because Greg Lake preferred to stand on a persion rug (that covered a multitude of twisted wires  - because he had been electrocuted one too many times)?   What's bombastic about that?  Now let's get to the "Pretentious" part.  These three guys are uber talented musicians.  Because of that, they challenged themselves, they challenged their audience, and they challenged the established rules.  So I dismiss this charge.  It's not pretentious, it's innovative.  Now comes the evil "arrogant".  I give this a "maybe" or even a "yes".  So I say to you - so what?!  These guys busted their asses for every recording (in the early days) and every live show.  Yes, they wanted it all to be perfect.  And when it wasn't perfect, they got pissed.  Sure wish more musicians creating music cared that much about their output.

 

I think that all the ELP bashing is nothing more than reverse snobbery.  Critics that bash ELP aren't musicians.  And if they are, they're just envious of the talent.  Nobody said you have to like ELP.  Their music isn't for everybody - it's complicated.  If you don't like it, you don't like it.  But enough with bashing.  If you're going to write a review, make it a genuine effort and stop repeating the same 40 years of "bombastic", "pretentious", and "arrogant".

 

 

 

 

When they first started out, they were powerful and strong in concert and a treat.

 

When they got famous with all the pirouettes and trying to emulate Pink Floyd's Quadraphonic sound, is when they became pretentious and arrogant and while that is not the description I like to describe them with, I did find that a little more humility and sticking to the music and a bit less sheriff stuff until the encore would have suited them a lot better and given their music more depth and appreciation.

 

I think the band died after Karn Evil ... that simple. But I could take these 6 albums (did I count them right?) and quickly trim one thing from each album that was a "filler" and detracted from the music they had and their ability.

 

In those days, the local symphony did not break into a Jimi Hendrix song, to give you an extreme example, to show a "break" in the action and the value of the material that is being played in concert. So, for some reason in a rock context, it is ok to not give a damn about your music and include the "fun songs" that some radio stations played only because it was satirical and often against the top ten songs or numbers listed for this week. "The Sheriff" was one such song, btw!

 

But when played next to "The Endless Enigma", it takes away from the strength, quality and power, not to mention meaning of the words in this piece. And that was what turned me off and got me to walk out! Karn Evil meant nothing to them and the serious music was nothing but riffs and just pop songs? I really didn't think so.

 

In the end, when you listen to Greg Lake's first 2 solo albums, they are not as good as ELP and his words sound almost hollow, probably because someone was not there to kick the ground under his feet and tell him how to accentuate this or that lyric better. Carl Palmer went on to other places, but in my book the music was "pop music" and not even half as strong as ELP but I suppose one could say that it paid him well? As for Keith ... I don't know. For someone so well trained musically, to not have the "discipline" to create more pieces and extended stuff that showed where a lot of the stuff in ELP came from, was a sad thing for me. I really thought there was more to the man and his music, and in the end ... I could not find it!

 

What's left?

 

The combination of the three talents worked. One took his classical ability and added rock punch to it, the other took his folk roots and helped him express himself, the other had to figure out how to color all this variety of music and beats and what not and he did! It wasn't rock'n'roll and that was the joke.

 

When it became "rock'n'roll" is when the band became pretentious, bombastic and boring ... the music was not the medium anymore!

 

But I still have those first 4 albums and love them dearly. I can do without Sheriffs and silly songs but there are some things, like Knife Edge, Ednless Enigma and many other pieces that will live on forever in my heart.

 

And Greg and Keith I hope you both read this as I know you both check this board periodically!

I'm tired of 40 years of people making threads complaining about people complaining about ELP.

wentka wrote: Their music isn't for everybody - it's complicated.

wentka wrote: Now let's get to the "Pretentious" part.  These three guys are uber talented musicians.  Because of that, they challenged themselves, they challenged their audience, and they challenged the established rules.  So I dismiss this charge.  It's not pretentious, it's innovative.

Some would say that playing pieces written a hundred years ago isn't exactly moving forward...

wentka wrote: I think that all the ELP bashing is nothing more than reverse snobbery.

So they secretly like ELP but won't admit it?

Critics that bash ELP aren't musicians.  And if they are, they're just envious of the talent.

Hahahaha! Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds?

 

Since I came on progarchives about 6 years ago there have been several threads of this nature and 2 quite recently.

 

I will recount what I've said before but in summary (I'm an ELP fan btw)

 

ELP were not perfect and never tried to be. Music was an adventure for them and good fun until they started falling out.

 

Greg Lake accepted the pretentious criticism.

 

..but they also had a sense of humour and liked doing the odd 'fun' tracks. It was part of what they were.

 

The albums are not consistent as say Yes or Genesis albums were.However they had great peices and a variety of ideas.Thats nots a bad thing in my book but I fully understand why many progheads have reservations about them.

 

ELP were in their element playing live .They were an extrovert band.

 

They were most definitely bombastic and I love it!

 

90% of their best music was recorded before 1974 and so they would have done themselves a favour if they had split earlier. Carrying on as long as they did brought a lot of criticism on their heads that could have been avoided. That said I hate music critics with a vengence. Keith Emerson was apparently appalled at the lack of expertise of journalists when reviewing ELP albums.

 

 

 

Thank you.  I agree completely.

Right then, now we have established that there isn't a woman (on planet earth) over 16 that you wouldn't shag how does that possibly tie in with ELP's propensity to have genius and utter dross on the same album ? To be fair ELP were NEVER my favourite band and sort of hated them because their on-stage antics were always used to tar all 70's prog rock with the same brush....

 

 

Agree. ELP was pretentious and bombastic as many of the prog bands of the `70s. So what's the problem? If I hear or read those adjectives, I will go to the there. I love progressive rock, and I like when it is bombastic or even pretentious. The best side of ELP becomes when they are bombastic, specially Emerson. 

Look ELP by 1974 was one of the biggest bands in the world along with Led Zeppelin, The Who, Pink Floyd and Deep Purple.  They played to the same audiences as those bands for the most part.  Gee do you think we would put Zeppelin down for putting filler like Rock and Roll on the same album as Stairway to Heaven? Or put down Deep purple for putting Smoke on the Water on the same album as Highway Star? The Sheriff was a concert favorite and broke up long a string of long songs.  It was fun and got people to smile. What is wrong with that?  ELP played more than one style of music and it shows.  Maybe that is what you are experiencing is a lack of common tonality like Yes or Pink Floyd.  See now this is where I would differ and say that gets monotonous quite quickly.  

ELP were rock stars they acted like Rock Stars in the era of rock stars. (Hmm doesn't Chris Squire still try and wear spandex? ) They did drugs, had sex with groupies and acted like spoiled children and sometimes their music reflected that they had a lot of fun making it and a lot of people had a lot of fun listening to it.. 

Get over it.  

Greg Lake admits they were pretentious

Keith Emerson has never seen a good review of ELP

Carl Palmer says that everything was substandard at the IOW. The overhead shots of the toilets are very amusing!

 

What people sometimes do not realize is how much of an impact a keyboard player had on the music scene in Europe ... it was huge, and the number of keyboard players that came up at the time was huge, and some were good and some were not as good.

 

Triumvirat and Kayak, and Eloy for that matter, were first introduced by the Harvest label ... and guess whose family that was? ... yep, one band that had become really famous for its own keyboard sound too!

 

These bands were not "clones" ... they were people that were doing their own thing and they deserve the right and the respect for their abilities and having tried it. We have no right to call them idiots simply because the organ sound is the same in every song, even though it is with different notes and what not.

 

If we're going to talk about "MUSIC" and develop "PROG" or "PROGRESSIVE", we must learn to accept each musicians' view of the music in different parts of the world. It's just like people going around saying that Banco and PFM sound like ELP, and they don't ... not even close! Even if they showed up on Manticore! ... in fact, it shows the respect that the ELP folks had for many of these people!

 

A lot more than we are showing here, btw!  How would you feel if you were one of them?

 

Quite frankly  No ELP = No Prog! Their groundbreaking legacy of pushing the limits at every opportunity, although not always successfully, should never have been classed as either "arrogant" or "pretentious".

 

I think the quality of late-seventies music journalism has a lot to answer for, having been seduced by the lie that was punk,  pure only in it's limp simplicity.

 

Rant over - keep up the good work and thanks for a great forum!

 

I remember long ago enjoying a filmed concert of the band with an orchestra. The performance of 'Pirates" in particular was having an effect on me. Works volume one felt and was in reality solo approach efforts. Works volume two has this rumour to it....that various tracks were actually written during the Trilogy sessions.....although I have never seen such info printed but, throughout decades ELP fans I met had an idea derived from something or the other had them convinced of this fact.

 

That's a very worrying statement there, Andy. I'm not going drinking with you again.

 

Going back to the topic, normally when I see ELP dismissed as "pretentious" it's for one of 2 reasons - either Greg Lake's carpet or the juggernauts they're toured with that had their initials on the top. Check out Stuart Maconie's "Cider with Roadies" which quotes the carpet as being "the size of Lincolnshire" (and he was a fan). It's worth reading for the story of the guy who got a girl back to his place and said "shall I put some music on", so he stuck on Karn Evil 9 and the girl ran away!

 

 

ELP?  Bombastic?  I think so.  But "bombastic" need *not* be synonymous with "bad"... 

 

I personally find most of Beethoven's symphonies bombastic on some level.  In his *day*, he was always pushing the envelope to make the orchestra *bigger* and *LOUDER*.  He was infamous for *destroying* expensive pianos with his heavy-handed playing style.  Pianos were made much stronger as a result of the popular response to Beethoven's piano banging.

 

I must admit that Beethoven wanted to play powerfully moving music.  He wasn't just torturing pianos to make a *showy* spectacle out the whole ordeal.  I mean - its not like he was stabbing knives into organs or anything like that!   

 

Of course, he also had soft sections too.  No doubt some suspected they were little more than a ruse... a method of making sure you appreciated the *power* of the LOUD sections! 

 

On the 'pretentious' front, I wish ELP had more clearly cited the composer whenever they lifted classical melodies and/or themes.  Fanfare for the Common Man was obvious and was handled very well IMO.  But some of the others were a little ambiguous, were they not?  The Barbarian?  As someone uneducated in classical music, I thought Emerson came up with that musical idea for a while there. 

 

Love Beach was all orginial material.  So no it wasn't the same in my opinion.  They actually did some work on Love Beach. In the Hot Seat contained almost all matrial rejected for Black Moon (Gee Thanks ELP) I would put Works II and In the Hot Seat in the obligation crapper bin.

 

You hit the nail.!