The Prog Fan On The Other Side
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=67369
Printed Date: July 17 2025 at 01:39
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Topic: The Prog Fan On The Other Side
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Subject: The Prog Fan On The Other Side
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 21:01
I could have titled this thread: your mortal enemy in prog, but that would be way too violent sounding and inaccurate  I was thinking though, that as Prog fans, we still have people on the opposing side of every big question. For instance; among Genesis fans, there is the fan who cuts everything off after even Selling England By The Pound. Opposite to him is the inclusive fan who might even like We Can't Dance. More close to home, among Pink Floyd fans there are several oppositions, for instance between those who swear by the experimental work of the early Floyd and those say the same of later periods. These oppositions are more controversial because they are more complex and delicate. What do you find is the most exasperating opposing position to your own in the Prog community? Not the widest opposition, but the one that impacts you in the most particular way. Similar to what I mentioned above, for me I find those who advocate for David Gilmour against Roger Waters to be most particularly exasperating. The reasoning is confused and misses the point of what Pink Floyd is about, which seems perplexing because these fans love the Floyd so much. I'll expand mine later,  Thanks, Roy |
Replies:
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 21:04
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People who think Can is anything other than the greatest band ever in the history of civilization I feel the same about: Comus, Magma, Weidorje, GY!BE, Tortoise, Faust, Amon Duul II, Captain Beefheart, Mr. Bungle, etc. ad nauseum |
Posted By: mmmreesescups
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 21:21
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This is pretty broad but, here goes. People who shrug off every modern prog band as rip-offs or clones. Also, people who dislike Post-Rock. ------------- 
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Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 21:25
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Dream Theater haters. I can see where they're coming from (sort of) but I never understood the intense dislike that (in my humble opinion) one of the most consistently great bands ever gets.
I have a feeling that I'm going to get hammered for this. ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 21:28
I can't believe someone with a Western Culture avatar could like crap like that! Just kidding, I used to listen to loads of DT, and still love their first album like a child (not mine though ) |
VanVanVan wrote:Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 21:37
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I hate the people who drone on and on and on and on and on and on about one or two particular golden era bands- Yes and Genesis are the prime suspects here- and talk as though all music released after 1979 or so is worse than the Holocaust.
This is not an attack on Yes and Genesis, they are both great bands. it's the behaviour of these particular fans I am saying annoys me. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 21:39
It is |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 21:42
People who love 80's AOR but consider Lady Gaga untalented and only-in-it-for-the-money.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 21:46
Iván
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Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 22:02
oi, you, yes you! Stand Still Laddy!   besides I don't "love" 80s AOR. I very much like AORish prog (Yes, Genesis, Asia, first of all, on a lesser scale bands like Pallas and Elpowell) and I enjoy other mixtures of AOR style music (Eric Clapton's mid to late 80s albums, for instance) of the semi-pure AOR, I sort of like Starship, I can listen to bits of Foreigner.... If anything I like Synthrock that would sound sort of like Zee or Under Wraps by Jethro Tull (which is terrible ) but it doesn't really exist!!!  <<< long explanation doesn't mean I'm making excuses  |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 22:16
To quote myself; and expand on myself; I should say: AOR has one benefit: glossy production and use of awesome techniques and technology, like the Fairlight Synthesizer, Electronic Drums, and countless other synthetic wonders. 80s music also has heavy percussive sounds that I like and the music doesn't sound cluttered at all or heavily distorted which I hate. MORE CENTRALLY, I disagree with the capitulation to vulgar concepts and themes, 4 minute songs repetitiveness and formulaic song composition. I also think the 80s is far too light and absent minded. Heaviness is lacking in the most profound sense. So I agree 90% with all pro-70s critics of the 80s except that I love that 80s sound!  |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 22:16
Yeah, don't have a Cow man, put a sock in it! ;) Seriously, hypothetically-speaking, I would be peeved by those who claim to know the boundaries of progressive rock and those who believe in a simple prog/ non-prog dichotomy and don't recognise that there are fuzzy edges (very nebulous), appreciate different perspectives, attitudes and definitions, and don't recognise that there are degrees of prog, but the degree depends very much on the individual. Also people who don't recognise differences between progressive music, progressive (adjective) rock, and Progressive Rock (noun). Not all Progressive Rock is progressive, and not all progressive rock need be Progressive Rock (i.e. Prog). And certainly not all progressive music is progressive rock, yet some seem to imply that that is the case. Too often I have felt that people's notions of being "progressive" has been far too limited and I feel the word is used inaccurately all too often. Also, people who claim subjective truths as objective truth when it comes to music. One even find ridiculous statements sometimes where people claim that something is not even musical or music that clearly fits the definitions. Also, people who can't tolerate others expressing their dislike of the music they like and those who cannot seem to disassociate personal taste (part of that comes from experience) from what has value (not just personal value, but what is good). People who say "Which is better?" when they really mean "which is better for you?" And those who go far in making competitive sport of music, or at least take results of such fun competitions (for instance Christian Vander vs. Neal Morse) seriously. Prog fans who won't give non-English language bands a chance (even if it's instrumental!). Prog fans who won't step out of their comfort zones to try something new (and discuss such music in a non-deprecatory way with people who are familiar with such music). \ Those who don't wish to share their true feelings for fear of offending the fans. Those who share their feelings in order to offend the fans. T=hose who don't know what they're talking about. Those who make little insults, or blanket biassed statements, then won't engage others in discussion when others respond. People who vote in polls before reading the question and opening post. Prog fans who complain about other Prog fans. Really anyone who does not accept my word as Divine. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 22:24
Best play on words I've heard in a long while. ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 22:28
Yeah but some of us don't like instrumental bands
That seems to be the original sin of Prog fans  |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 22:29
plus
People who run down reviews because they dont understand the rating
But also people who talk up albums that are really the pits and expect you to change your mind about them...
reviews that make no sense at all or are over personal consistently
People who run down the newer prog bands such as Dream Theater or Mars Volta
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 22:34
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People who dismiss anything that fits regular harmonic and melodic molds and who accept as high art anything that resembles noise. ------------- 
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 22:39
And people who dismiss anything that does not fit regular harmonic and melodic moulds as just noise. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: May 12 2010 at 23:08
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I am constantly aggravated that no one on PA (not to mention my friends in the real world) can grasp the awesomeness of Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, the best band of the 21st century bar none.
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 00:33
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Those who say a song is no good, or cannot even be considered Prog because it is less than ten minutes long. Twenty for those who are really far gone.
I also agree with T and Logan. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Synchestra
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 01:02
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Prog fans who dismiss someones input because they use a non prog band as an example, unless it makes no sense of course (really, when was the last prog conversation you had where rap was a relevant example?)
 ------------- 'Yeah, thats.. Whatever you're talking about for ya' - Zapp brannigan |
Posted By: Falx
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 01:20
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People who love "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway". I swear, the more I listen to it the worse it sounds. I love Nursery Cryme, though. =F= ------------- "You must go beyond the limit of the limit of your limits!" - Mr. Doctor "It is our duty as men and women to proceed as though the limits of our abilities do not exist." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 03:15
So true! |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 03:22
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I'm having hard times to understand:
- People who don't get very bored while listeneing to Dark Side of the Moon. I don't have a single prog album that bores me more. - People who still get satisfied with that anti-inventive new sympho or neo release that sounds just like bla bla bla. - People that will rate any Genesis higher then way better Itialian prog album. BTW, I do think Genesis musicians weren't that good, otherwise they would have had at least ONE proper recording in the studio. Their best recording to date was on Trespass, because the drums are way more articulated. But hey... that's says more about me then it does about others. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 03:35
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I'm not a Prog Fan so I don't have this problem. Actually my problem on this board is the "Prog Fans". Also,
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Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 03:36
| - People who love all those newfangled "prog" bands that don't do anything other than run thing their derivative music through a distortion box. |
Posted By: Falx
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 05:18
Although English is my first language (infact the only language I'm fluent in) I find myself drawn more towards non-English bands, even if I have no idea what the lyrics are about. Not understanding the words lets you enjoy the sound of the voice, some languages are beautifully musical (e.g. French, Italian), others I find fascinating for the "texture" of the words (e.g. Finnish, Czech + other Slavic languages). (Don't be offended if I left out your language, I can't list them all  )=F= ------------- "You must go beyond the limit of the limit of your limits!" - Mr. Doctor "It is our duty as men and women to proceed as though the limits of our abilities do not exist." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 05:50
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I have a problem with the new generation prog mentality
Instead of coming out and playing a naturally exciting jazz/classical rock melody, todays prog is about taking the word progressive literally and inventing a new style of rock or metal and experimenting like no one else has. But what made prog great was melody and the cleverness and excitement that came from a jazz/classical man playing rock. Real proggers don't think about the term progressive they just go out and play it  ------------- Jazz/Classical Rock(70's style prog/fusion). Lots of prog keys and melodies(all original ideas) http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/vigilante2008 |
Posted By: FusionKing
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 06:54
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Those who reasonlessly hate Jazz- Rock Fusion.
Those who say Phil Collins' Genesis is crap (especially those who secretly like most stuff up to 'Abacab')
Those who say Yes and ELP got too self indulgent with the music.
Those who say prog and metal can never work together.
Those who will not listen to foreign prog bands.
Those who claim to 'know' that punk killed prog, even though there is neo prog in the 80's.
Those who find avant garde too disturbing. ------------- "Man is nothing else but that which he makes of himself" - Sartre |
Posted By: Tsevir Leirbag
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 07:20
That's pretty frustrating indeed. ------------- Les mains, les pieds balancés Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers, Un marin mort, Il dormira - Paul Éluard |
Posted By: FusionKing
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 07:24
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^
agreed. ------------- "Man is nothing else but that which he makes of himself" - Sartre |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 09:59
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The lamb lies down and Dark side of the moon dislikers.... ouch.... right in the balls for me
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Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 10:31
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What drives me up the wall the most, are people who label the german group Triumvirat as sounding like a "clone" of ELP-this is utter nonsense- Triumvirat sound like (you guessed it) Triumvirat! |
Posted By: wreckfan1
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 11:00
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people who don't like ELP
people who consider muse as prog
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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 11:17
Looks like you and me will have to fight to the death, then! ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: shockedjazz
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 11:25
Agree with all, especialy the first one
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Posted By: shockedjazz
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 11:27
Not quite right, i think althought i love jamms.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 11:40
I don't like ELP that much, but I do like some of ELP's music. I don't consider Muse to be Prog, but am not adverse to people calling it "NuProg". People who dismiss bands wholesale while being unfamiliar with the the great majority of their work and those who dismiss music while being unaccustomed/ unattuned to the style. Those who can not appreciate that people have different tastes, and just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad and just because you like something doesn't mean other people should like it. A major peeve of mine: When you make a poll and someone acts all indignant about you not listing their favourite band, track or album. I commonly really dislike comments such as "Where the hell is so-and-so?", but I'm perfectly happy if people list their favourites in a polite manner without expectation, and love getting recommendations. I might not be familiar with their choice, I might have forgotten it, or it might not be something that appeals to me. When there are thousands of choices available, some of those expectations seem quite insane. Those who think having a band/ artist at PA is a joke without understanding what it's there for and why. Sometimes those people are only familiar with limited material and not what got it included in the first place, and sometimes they have a very limited understanding of the how the category operates / expectations. Those who "expect" a band/ artist in while not understanding how the category works and get irate because others see it differently. Those who can't accept differences of opinion, don't recognise that there are shades of grey and different valid perspectives, and those who are didactic and feel they must "win" every discussion. Those who don't recognise the principle of charity when it comes to debate. And those who do not give credit where credit is due. Those who belittle others to make themselves seem bigger. Anyone who doesn't recognise that the recognition of one's own ignorance is an important step on the road to wisdom. Incidentally, like Harmonium (Alex), I don't consider consider myself to be a Prog fan (I'm actually not that big on Prog in a generic sense and what I tend to like is not traditional "Prog"), though I am a great appreciator of a lot of progressive music and progressive rock. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 11:44
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-People who don't realize that Peter Hammill is the greatest singer and lyricist of all time. -People who think that A Trick of the Tail is the best Genesis album. -People who give 5 stars to a Retro or Neo-Prog album. -People who don't realize experimentation's place in Progressive music (I used to be one of those.) -People who have to give one 5-star album to every band or sub-genre.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 11:45
Yes, I rather think that Neo-Prog is much more to blame for killing Prog than punk. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 11:52
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People who think all good prog was done in the 70's... AND people who think only today's prog is worth their time. -------------
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 11:55
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This thread http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65907 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65907 is a pretty good start. ------------- 
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 12:19
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Oh boy, this might go on a bit.
People who can say with a straight face that Radiohead are not progressive because they're "generic mtv rock" all the while praising Dream Theater as innovators.
People who dismiss all of Genesis's post W&W material.
People who think Jon wasn't an important member of Yes, wtf, bunch of BS. And anyone willing to bet that the upcoming album (with that canadian guy who looks like the uncle from Full House who does funny voices and banged Alanis Morrisete) is gonna be the worst Yes album ever? I am.
People who write off the entirety of punk rock, both for the lack of virtuosity and out of bitterness over a crime it didn't commit (killing prog).
People who dismiss bands that marry prog rock with "unclean" genres like pop, electronica, punk, reggae and so on.
People who write off bands for experimenting with atonality and timbre (or noise) rather than traditional melodic form, but claim to like Wetton era Crimson for the sake of convenience I guess.
People who think the only good thing about the 80s was neo prog.
People who think a band can't be progressive if they're not virtuosos.
Eh, I'll stop there but I could go on. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 12:29
| What annoys me most is when it seems like people are being deliberately close-minded. I can understand them having a differing opinion and I understand that they can state said opinions as firmly as they want, but when people close themselves off from something "just because of X" http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ItJustBugsMe?from=Main.JustBugsMe - it just bugs me . |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 12:48
And those who argue that a band shouldn't be included because the musicians are not virtuosos or because they don't think the music good.
That brings me to one of my beefs I often bring up. I don't think of bands as being Prog per se so much as individual music/ albums. To claim that, say, Hemispheres is not Prog would seem ludicrous to me, but to just pigeonhole artists/ bands as Prog or non-Prog to me is misguided (and for the purposes of this site, a narrow version of Prog is misguided). I wouldn't describe everyhting Rush did as Prog, as is common with bands here, and I could also describe Rush as a Hard Rock band. Genesis had a Prog period, as I see it, but I could say that Genesis is a pop band for albums. I think it's helpful to think on the album level for the purposes of this site rather than debating whether a band/ artists is Prog or not. Rush made Prog, but does that make the band itself Prog? Of course you can describe bands using a genre description (it's a rock band meaning it plays rock), but in another sense the band is not the genre, it only plays the genre. It's so common for diversity with artists who made so-called prog that narrow pigeon-holing can be problematic. Some people talk of bands being fully-prog whose vast majority of music was not Prog. A band can play many types of music. Is Miles Davis Jazz-Rock Fusion? I wouldn't say so, but I would say he made various JRF albums. Is he an important figure to JRF; yes. He's also an important figure in jazz proper. And too many get dismissed because people are unfamiliar with the works that gained the acts inclusion (or they have narrow views on what prog can be). I just find the prog/ non-Prog dichotomy commonly far too simplistic when describing artists. Many excluded from PA could be said to have made prog music (maybe not a sufficient amount for inclusion) and many included in PA mainly did not make Prog-music. For that matter, what is prog is open to interpretation. A lot of the music in the archives that I love, though Prog by PA category standards, I don't consider representative of Prog in a typical, rather generic sense. I almost wish we could do away with the Prog label all together here. Some of the music isn't even rock (mind you, I support having less rock-based music here and even opening up this site to non-rock progressive music that would not be applicaible under the current standards to make this into more of a modern progressive music site). ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 13:11
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I like everybody and enjoy reading the opinions of people whose opinion differs from mine. I'm more interested in why they believe a certain thing, or hold a fanciful notion as being an immutable truth. If people are open minded or closed minded, inclusive or exclusive, progressive or retrogressive it affects me not one iota, I'm not going to get het-up about it or bust a blood vessel - it certainly isn't going to change my view of the world through the eyes of the musicians and bands I listen too. But the people who have those opinions and views that are the diametric opposite of mine - they interest me. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Nightshine
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 13:11
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There's too many things which disgust me, but the #1 on that list has to be the collective overrating certain bands. I can tell you for a fact that Dream Theater and Genesis do not deserve the high praise and pedestal that everyone on these boards gives them. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 13:16
And I dislike blanket statements (and that overrated word I find commonly problematic here too). If you honestly believe that everyone here praises Dream Theater, you haven't been around much (or Genesis for that matter). I hope you're joking. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Nightshine
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 13:21
I'm not. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 13:26
Dream Theater has had more abuse thrown at it than just about any band I can think of in PA (heck, I've hopped on the DT hating bandwagon before). Genesis gets a lot of scorn for its 80's and up albums. EDIT to add: There is no band I can think of that gets universal high praise here, and citing DT as an example of a band that gets high praise from everyone and is put on a pedestal by everyone is very misguided. DT has provoked extremes of passion from the adulators and the detractors/ haters. I think much of the disdain is more in response to the fans who are sometimes seen as way too enthusiastic and sometimes have had a rather juvenile reputation "DT pwns!", "DT the best!" than really directed at the band itself. Someone who is a big name at this site has referred to DT fans as the "acne-scarred masses." I don't like DT, and hardly put it on a high pedestal, but I respect that other people like DT and I recognise its importance to "Prog Metal" (I'm not really a Prog Metal fan). I used to love various Genesis albums, but it's not so much my cup of tea any more and I don't put it on a high pedestal (agian, I recognise its importance to Symphonic Prog, but I'm a more avant-oriented listener, and love jazz). I think it's a good band; not that great according to my tastes or my particular yard-sticks, but I have no qualms with those who think it exemplary. To each his or her own taste, but there is a great diversity to the music audiences at this site so such blanket statements are misguided. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Nightshine
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 14:30
Great to know that you can speak on the behalf of yourself. However, I'm looking at the collective as a majority. Also, your stance really doesn't change my opinion. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 14:42
The collective doesn't like being a majority...
and my favourite:
< id=frmPoll method=post name=frmPoll =poll_cast_vote.asp>
------------- What? |
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[53.16%]Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 14:45
And something a little more recent:
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[6.98%]Posted By: Nightshine
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 14:47
Touche. However, I used Dream Theater and Genesis as examples, when it could be any band at a given moment. IE: Selling England by the Pound lies at the top of PA's album list. Care to counterpoint that? |
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Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 15:03
^duh cuz its the best Prog album   |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 15:05
This, I think it's just easy to hate on those albums with the most mainstream success. I can understand why one would tire of DSOTM but most boring prog album ever? Weither or not it's really a prog album is up for debate but c'mon. I know it's such a cliche thing to say but it really is my favorite album, and it has been long before I realised how popular it really was, a few idiots who wear DSOTM t shirts while only hearing the songs on the radio is not enough to turn me off of it. It's just a great album and an amazingly cohesive work. And the only Floyd album other than WYWH that I could call flawless.
The Lamb has probably the most crazy f-ed up story in concept album history. I can understand why that turns people off but crazy stuff like that is something I have a thing for. Gotta love that part from Colony of Slippermen where the raven swoops down and steals Rael's "Shoobedoobe".
The Lamb is my fourth favorite Genesis album after Foxtrot, Selling England and Trick. It's better than Nursery Cryme, yeah, I said it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 15:22
------------- What? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 15:27
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Hmm, maybe DT is overrated by the community at large. ;) 67% of people don't believe that it's a metal farce.
The majority don't think DT overrated.
Only 11% think it's crap according to this poll. That's a shocker.
I'm truly shocked with the results of this one.
I think the love option would have a lower percentage if there was a neither love nor hate option.
Perhaps the title of the thread was more likely to attract those who like DT.
Here's a fun one just because DT and Genesis was mentioned.
Then there's this:
------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 15:43
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Anyway. A few more.
People who hate ELP.
People who think Genesis weren't very good musicians, pfft.
People who think something HAS to be a long song in shifting odd time to be prog, as if that's the only thing the word progressive means.
Prog fans who can't stand stream of conciousness lyrics or lyrics with sci/fantasy/surrealist/abstract themes. Talk about an oxymoron. Why even be a prog fan? Oooh prog doesn't have a Bob Dylan. Do we need one?
The super pretentious "only good prog is Italian" types.
People who hate all 70s prog, especially the snotty little kids.
People who hate all modern prog, especially the crabby old guys.
People who only like the super duper mega virtuoso bands that tend to be rather obscure and get off on trashing bands like Yes and Genesis for being "amateurish". Made worse when they play the "take my word for it I'm a musician" card. Show me a video before you claim to be better than a well established musician. Nobody ever does because they know they suck. You're NOT a better guitarist than Steve Howe, stfu. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 15:47
I basically agree. In most respects though I must admit to belong to category of people who operates with a (though not simple) prog/non prog dichotomy, so I guess that I "believe" in dichotomy's existence. I wouldn't claim to know the boundaries of progressive rock but I think of 'progressive rock', as I do with any other category, in terms of both boundaries and degrees. I recognize that there are fuzzy edges - in case of the category 'progressive rock' there are extremely fuzzy edges as opposed to eg. the category 'chair', where it's much easier to tell whether an object is a chair or not. Anyhow my point is, exept hinting that we can't free ourselves from the way our minds construct categories and thus we can't get hold the 'objective truth', I also question the existence of the category of people you talk about. I recognize the tendency, but the tendency is rarely in one-to-one correspondence with individuals. I know you speak hypothetically, but if we say those people exist, who cares if they think of the category 'progressive rock' that way? It doesn't bother me.. I like music, but I don't like the idea of thinking, talking and classifying it to death - and remember, talking about music is like dancing about architecture.
I can see you can construct such a difference, and that the difference makes sense. But I find that it somewhat over-complicates things and it only serves to confuse and obscure things more than necessary.
There are no objective truths when it comes to music. To present (with varying degrees of subjectivity) inductively drawn generalizations based on experience (as I just did) is not to be confused with presenting an objective truth - even if it looks like it.
I don't believe in music, that set apart from personal experience, just is good. What does it mean for music to have value?
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 15:49
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Not a whole lot of them really. My main concern is that too many of these conversations and postings are not educational enough to help take people, and this music, to a more important and inteligent level, where the music has a chance to make itself known and heard.
Too many fans. Simply way too many postings are about I like this, and I don't like that, and for music to last and be an effective tool and art out there we have to drop the subjectivity and ACCEPT that 1) there is music out there. 2) people change and are not what we expect. 3) times plays a big factor on any artists growth 40 it's all about the artist and his/her growth .... NEVEREVERNEVEREVER what I want to listen to.
And that's where I draw the line and there was one other discussion here that is really scary to me. It's the "reviewer's" job to tell you that something stinks ... but YOU have no idea if this is a subjective stink or not, and one person's opinion should not be the rule!
It's not the reviewer's job to draw that line. It IS the reviewer's job to state how he/she feels about it, and let us know. The problem that arises is something that you don't see here in America much but you will see some in Europe, or France ... where a reviewer that is a renown part of a political part will say something because he feels that some music is anarchistic! Or vice versa ... and all of a sudden you're screwed. Yo have no chance to find out about the music, or the art, unless you go out and get it and find out for yourself.
This is the problem with advertising. You, or some of your friends, don't usually stand out as "different", but in general because of the tastes you share in many things, not only music. So, right there, you can see how that precludes and hurts the inevitable ability to learn and find out about something totally different and experimental ... all of a sudden ... that's weird!
The perfect example on this thread is right on the top ... the word "fan" ... most fans are not in many music appreciation societies except their "star" favorites! It might not bew intentional, but there it is ... your social acceptance speech! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: rod65
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 15:54
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1. People who dismiss commercially successful bands or albums as definitively inferior 2. People who present their opinions on the quality of music as if they were objective facts with verifiable and unassailable criteria
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 15:55
People so arrogant that they think their opinion is worth more than mine.
WalterDigsTunes
"Are Within Temptation Prog?" threades.  ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 16:02
Oh god, a big yes on both counts. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 16:08
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Hi,
Logan ... that's a nice poll.
I think the real issue with DT is that some people are stuck on a "style" of music, and they liked a song or two in the early days, and all of a sudden when they get a powwow in 6 Degrees, it's NOT the song they heard before and it's quite different all around ... and the appreciation of a band drops.
In the end, it's not about the "style". It's about the output. Some people like Beethoven's 5th better. Some like the 9th ... and they are different. The issue becomes something like this ... DT doesn't have the right to not satisfy me with my music needs! ... and that is totally wrong, regardless of who the band is, and that person really needs to learn the meaning of the word "progressive" and then evaluate why they are here!
I don't happen to think that the later Genesis is not as good as the earlier Genesis, the musicianship is still very good, although some of us like to think that it was more pop oriented, and I have to admit that I fell out of it ... but then, I had fallen out of it when Peter Gabriel left and his massive interview with Melody Maker explained it well, and I side with the artist and the artistic vision, and Peter felt that he could not do more theater with Genesis! And in the end, he had to come down also and not be so "conceptual", and be too difficult to work with. But he surrounded himself with top knotch musicians, whom he knew would help him get better and closer to what he was hoping to do. It was not "theater" any more, but it had the makings for it if it needed to be turned into that.
But to think/say that Tony Banks, or Mike Rutherford did not improve as musicians, would be totaly wrong ... they had to! They lost some excellent people along the way. ... so yeah, it may be that it became a little more "pop" ... and it was not your preference or mine, but they were still very good!
But if you asked me 50 years from now, I would say that Genesis was an excellent group with a magnificent output of music ... same for Dream Theater ... same for Pink Floyd ... same for Tangerine Dream ... same for Klaus Schulze ... same for Mike Oldfield ... same for Riuichi Sakamoto ... and the rest of a lot of these one album wonders, or some esoteric definitions of the type of prog that some band supposedly is ... will be long forgotten and worse ... never heard! I personally do not care for the descriptions of "rio", "symphonic" or whatever other flavor of vanilla we can come up with for "prog" ... because in the end we're diluting the music for our benefit and killing the artist (so to speak!) ... and I always say we need to lift the artist ... not the fan! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 16:40
There are good things in the commercial area ... however, the assumption that you are making is that something "commercial" is going to be around for 100 years, and everyone will be heard, loved , appreciated and talked about at progarchives and NME. ... And you damn well know that 95% of the music that is commercially succeeful is not going to be remembered a whole lot or discussed very much. And I can give you an example. Jefferson Airplane had a lot of nice things a lot of progressive stuff and at least one member was very experimental. Do they get any serious discussion? Nahhh ... there are more fun threads trying to trash James Labrie!
The 2nd one ... geeeee, you just did the exact same thing you are not liking. Can I send you a mirror for Christmas?
The hard part, and your comment might or might not suggest that, is when we're talking about KC, ELP, PF, Soft Machine and London, and then someone like me mentions The Beat Poets and mixes Daevid Allen and Kevin Ayers and Mr. Naked Lunch, or Gurdgieff ... it throws you for a loop. All of a sudden you can not relate the music to the art scene, and you might not have heard enough to have any idea what the context, inspiration and work was used and turned into music! And then, all you can state is that I (or any one else) have no idea what we're talking about, and you can easily open up the internet and go check out the Brittanica for the year 1969 (they do issues for every year!!!) and see a lot of things listed ... ohh my gawd ... and Pink Floyd was playing next door the same night? And Soft Machine opened the set? And a pair of folkies called Incredible String Band were outside and they stole some of the audience and they were doing some farout stuff with some women and actors dancing around ... and some poets were a couple of blocks away in the middle of an anti-war demonstration against VietNam ... and one group had this really far out song ... something about tomorrow I'll be crying ...
Or I like this one better ... The Beatles White Album ... Revolution #9 ... when you break it down and hear Marat/Sade let me know ... and then go check out that play, where it came from, the folks that started it, and the musicians that were around those folks, the school ... oh sheep dip ... there is this far out art gallery across the street and this one lady has this white wall with a dot in the middle and John is hanging around all over it! And Pink Floyd is to play tonite after a whole bunch of poets and people are gonna stream through ...
Does any of it mean anything to you? That's the real issue, isn't it? I sincerely hope that your children don't find themselves in the same place as this generation did ... with parents that were not willing to listen and teach their children well ... except send them to fight for something that almost no one believed and that you and I certainly don't and didn't ... and France had given up on it 10 years earlier!
So, I guess music has nothing different than a feeling/fantasy for you than what Playboy, or some other magazine might offer you? It's all about your satisfaction? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Anirml
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 16:48
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I think all people would like prog if they understood it If you have gotten into Prog, would you then go back again and listen to pop? (Platons Cave?)
When I first heard Yes' music I thought it sucked, I hated it actually (made a comment once here on PA, about how much I thought Yes sucked). Then after ca. 4 months I listened to Close to the Edge and was shocked at how good it was, I couldn't belive I once disliked this music. ------------- 
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Posted By: Zombywoof
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 18:44
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People who take the music they like too seriously, and get angry when it is slightly mocked. For instance, Beatles fans who get upset with me for wearing a t-shirt with Frank Zappa's We're Only In It For The Money cover on it! ------------- Continue the prog discussion here: http://zombyprog.proboards.com/index.cgi ... |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: May 13 2010 at 18:55
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There's no way DT are better than Europe, Dean. Europe is tawesome! That poll must have been manipulated!
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Posted By: OT Räihälä
Date Posted: May 14 2010 at 04:59
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I don't hate anyone or anything, but what annoys me is, when people can't accept that the 70's prog doesn't define what is and what isn't prog. For example what Radiohead have done since the turn of the millennium is proggier than anything most dinosaurs (Yes etc.) did after, say, 1975. To me, prog is exploring new ways. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/osmotapioraihala/sets" rel="nofollow - Composer - Click to listen to my works! |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: May 14 2010 at 05:59
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None of the points brought up bother me really, quite the oposite, those points can lead to the most interesting discussions. I just have one tep peeve: - People trying to get their favourite artist(s) included here although they have nothing to do with prog.This can annoy me a bit. Anatolian yodeling outfits and suchlike. |
Posted By: shockedjazz
Date Posted: May 14 2010 at 10:41
Absolutely to first one
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Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: May 14 2010 at 11:40
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I've said it before, and other people have said it too, but to me: People who dismiss anything that has distorted bass or chiming 12-strings or a mellotron as being a rip-off of classic prog. Like, sure, there are some cases where the creativity is lacking, but for the most part it's genuinely creative music that happens to have a couple of similarities with the big names of prog, and gets sl*gged for it. I especially hate this with King Crimson's Red. One album. One. Album. And now anyone who ever makes music with chunky bass tones, dissonant guitar riffs, or the tritone is instantly just copying it. Now, I like Red. I think it's a great album. I just get sick of reading all the "This song features a trumpet playing over a heavy guitar, drums, and bass riff, so clearly it's just a Fallen Angel clone." |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: May 14 2010 at 16:17
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Here is my "drive me up the wall" part 2 a) when people use the words "tolerant" and "intolerant" as a way of psychologically clubbing someone or to mentally beat them into submission. This has not happened to me in the PA forums, but has in other music forums on the net. Just because you disagree with someone about music, you are condemmed as "intolerant", when really all you have is a difference of opinion, which anybody out there is entitled to. Just because you do not see something the same as someone else does not always imply intolerance. b) people who read to much into something you have stated, and give it a meaning that simply is not there-it happened to me in another music forum, when i stated a point of view that was not popular and "against the grain", i was labelled as a "provoker", which was not my intention at all. |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 14 2010 at 16:47
Yeah, a lot of times when people say "this is clearly a ripoff of" it's a ridiculous comparison. I've heard people say that Sabbath's Electric Wizard and The Wizard are ripoffs of 21st Century Schizoid Man, that every Yes prog song is a ripoff of "Mirrors" and that every Genesis prog song copies "In the Court of". I've also heard Gentle Giant being refered to as a Crimson clone simply because of their use of brass and reed instruments. As if Crimson have the exclusive rights to brass and reed instruments.
I swear, some people take the most desperate measures to discredit a band they don't like. Sabbath, Yes, Genesis and Gentle Giant aren't any more Crimson clones than Crimson was a Moody Blues clone. None of these bands are clones, do they really sound alike at all? No.
Taking inspiration from =/= cloning. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: May 14 2010 at 23:46
While I respect your opinion, I don't think I've ever disagreed with something more. But to each his own.  ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: I Love Internet
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 08:51
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I don´t really spend enough time around here to have strong oppositions considering anything. What really bugs me though is that an album like Riversides ADHD for example is rated above Unexpects In a flesh aquarium., that album should be at least in the top 50...imo... I like Riverside and ADHD, but compared to IAFA... ------------- I like my eggs boiled and that´s it! |
Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 12:40
Really? I completely disagree. All that mainstream prog is okay, but it's nothing compared to true prog, like ITCOTCK... oh wait, it went gold. Um, I meant, Thick as a Brick. No, wait, sorry, that one peaked at #1. Oh, I know, Close to the Edge! No, shoot, that one went platinum. Hmmmm... |
Posted By: Zombywoof
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 13:54
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Since when has Prog been mainstream? I enjoy it all, it's music. ------------- Continue the prog discussion here: http://zombyprog.proboards.com/index.cgi ... |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 14:19
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Prog was pretty mainstream in the 70s, and of course there's a lot of music in prog categories that has had much mainstream success. Some Prog is a lot more mainstream than others. What has somewhat irritated me is when people have equated album sales (commercial success) with how 'good" an album is. Commercial success does not equal artistic success in my book. I commonly prefer lesser known progressive rock acts to the big Prog names. I won't say that the more obscure is better, but it is often better for me. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: AbrahamSapien
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 14:48
I don't really know what PROGMONSTER2008 wanted to say, but my opinion is that anyone can do weird music, but only the masters can make it groove - and that's how a prog masterpiece is done. |
Posted By: Jake Kobrin
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 15:17
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People who actually enjoy James LaBrie and/or Geddy Lee's vocals.
------------- http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Neil-Kobrin/244687105562746" rel="nofollow - SUPPORT MY FATHER AND BECOME A FAN Jacob Kobrin Illustration |
Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 15:29
Haha well that's just the thing, proggers sometimes seem to have a tendency of seeing album sales as inversely proportionate to artistic success LOL |
Posted By: InClouds
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 16:26
I enjoy both of them, but I can definitely see why some people might not like them. They're kind of......an acquired taste, I guess. Still, there are moments when LaBrie's vocals can make me absolutely cringe. Mostly on live stuff and anytime he tries to do something from When Dream and Day Unite....... Anyway, I get annoyed when people give an album a bad review simply because it's not "proggy" enough. It's not like music has to be prog to be enjoyable. I understand that there are people that simply don't like most music that isn't prog, but if you're going to review an album then I think you should review it based on the actual quality of the music, not on how progressive it actually is.
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 17:31
Well I enjoy Geddy's vocals, combined with Peart's corny lyrics it's a guilty pleasure... actually I don't feel guilty at all. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: who-knows-it's-prog
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 19:29
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People who defend Triumvirat as not pinching ELP music....go listen and cringe (ps i do likeTriumvirat) .
Can....a noise for all.
Music that people call prog but is so far left field it doesn't even touch pop.
Prog music that is only heavy metal with keyboards.
this is non-musical.......England being referred to as the UK.
People who find DSOTM boring........destroy them.
Dream Theater....why?
The Canterbury scene described as prog...............spew (i like some stuff...but prog?).
Vocalists...just because they can sing a wee bit different they get crucified......
American prog which (on here) seems to be the be all and end all of prog music........no it isn't nor ever will be.
American music that is a bit different described as prog because no one knows how to spell sh*t. ------------- If it's not prog, it's not prog, regardless. |
Posted By: ProgressiveAttic
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 20:12
Specially when they criticize Tales From Topographic Oceans and Tarkus (two of the greatest masterpieces ever produced IMNSHO!!!) 
Then you'll have a big argument with Jordan Rudess....
I do like some parts of it... but I don't see what's all the fuzz about... (I am a huge Genesis fan by the way....and Selling England is the best Genesis album ever!)  ------------- Michael's Sonic Kaleidoscope Mondays 5:00pm EST(re-runs Thursdays 3:00pm) @ Delicious Agony Progressive Rock Radio(http://www.deliciousagony.com) 
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Posted By: Falx
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 20:34
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Bits of The Lamb are ok, it's like pieces of meat floating in a very bland curry sauce though. =F= ------------- "You must go beyond the limit of the limit of your limits!" - Mr. Doctor "It is our duty as men and women to proceed as though the limits of our abilities do not exist." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin |
Posted By: ProgressiveAttic
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 20:38
Exactly! ------------- Michael's Sonic Kaleidoscope Mondays 5:00pm EST(re-runs Thursdays 3:00pm) @ Delicious Agony Progressive Rock Radio(http://www.deliciousagony.com)
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Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 20:49
i definitely find DSOTM boring as hell |
Posted By: TheLastBaron
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 22:23
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I get a little tired of the whole And Justice for All was Metallica's best album ever and was more progressive and complex than Ride the Lightning and Master of Puppets. Irriatated by the assumption that muse and coheed and cambria aren't even prog enough to be considered prog related. Tired of people defending the blaze bailey era Iron Maiden, sorry but IMO that era of maiden was pure garbage. ------------- " Men are not prisoners of fate, but prisoners of their own minds." - FDR |
Posted By: rod65
Date Posted: May 15 2010 at 23:47
Hi, Moshkito. Where to begin? Probably, I should thank you for your response as you definitely gave me something to think about--one of the things I like about this site. As for the Marat/Sade, I've been familiar with it for about 25 years, and its relationship with Revolution 9 is not that hard to spot. Regarding Jefferson Airplane, I agree that they are under-appreciated. As for the mirror you offer, I do not think I am making the logical contradiction of which I am accused: in my first point, I was simply drawing attention--perhaps with insufficient clarity, and there I was as fault--to the fact that there is no necessary correlation between commercial success and artistic merit or the lack thereof; I was certainly not suggesting that selling a lot of records necessarily suggested musical brilliance. As the first point did not actually assert a set of absolute values, the second point cannot possibly contradict it. Again, sorry if I was less than clear. As for the line with which you finish, honestly, I'm at a bit of a loss. If I told you I teach ancient and medieval literature for a living, and spend much of my time arguing against exactly the kind of feel-good subjectivity of which I seem to be accused, would you believe that we probably agree with each other on most of the major points? As for Playboy, I don't read it or any other pictorial magazine (that was unnecessarily insulting): I was not suggesting that there was no intellectual content to music, nothing that transcends my own subjectivity. And I agree with you that the context of any given piece provides much of its meaning. "Context is everything" is in fact one of my pedagogical mantras--precisely in maintaining my position against absolute subjectivity. Nonetheless, in music as in any art form, there is a large element of subjectivity--of perception and experience--that cannot be excluded. And insofar as that element is present, one cannot appeal solely to such things as context or any other single principle in evaluating any artistic production. It's messy. Just bloody messy. I hope to hear from you again. Best wishes, Rod |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 16 2010 at 00:14
???
Unless you think symphonic rock is the only kind of prog I don't see how you could think of canterbury as anything but prog.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 16 2010 at 00:24
That's kinda my feeling of Tarkus with the title track being the piece of meat and side 2 being the curry sauce.
I don't think The Lamb touches England or Foxtrot but it's still a great swan song for the Gabriel era Genesis. Not without some filler but nothing bad really. It's true that they could have just made an LP out of the strongest tracks, but then the story would have been even more confusing, and I won't lie, I actually like the story and even the lesser tracks add on to the narrative and atomosphere. It's a brilliant album that dared to take more risks than any Genesis album before or since.
PS to Moshkito, I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. Nothing you said really gives me any idea of what you're trying to say, I assume it has something to do with how music can be objectified and you already know what I think about that. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: InClouds
Date Posted: May 16 2010 at 00:28
I agree with everything you said, especially about Blaze Bailey era Maiden. I can't even listen to those albums they're so terrible.......Thank god Bruce came back!
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Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: May 16 2010 at 00:38
Fact is there will always be quality if you know where to look. Just because you've become a crotchety old geezer in your age doesn't mean it's not there waiting to be found. I suppose people just can't wait to become their parents. "Turn off that darn racket you hooligan!"
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Posted By: Synchestra
Date Posted: May 16 2010 at 00:41
I'm so glad I couldn't go to concerts during that era, Bruce is a helluva front man ------------- 'Yeah, thats.. Whatever you're talking about for ya' - Zapp brannigan |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 16 2010 at 00:49
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I did bring up people who think "prog" and "pop" are mutually exclusive right? I don't think genres are mutually exclusive from another, they are all colors on a big palette that can be mixed to create all kinds of combinations. Well ok, you shouldn't mix crunk with screamo, as Brokencyde have proved.
 I do think that PA could use some new subgenre sections. I especially think there should be a section for "prog pop", for which groups like Muse, Queen, Super Furry Animals, Kate Bush, Stereolab, Flaming Lips, Roxy Music and others could qualify. Should put an end to all that controversy. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: May 16 2010 at 01:10
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: May 16 2010 at 01:48
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I also hate it when people can't acknowledge that non prog music can still be progressive.
David Bowie isn't prog, but that doesn't mean he's not progressive. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: May 16 2010 at 02:10
Isn't that what Crossover is for? It seems like you're just trying to further dilute what it means to be "prog". I agree that you can do things that are progressive within any genre or style (with a few exceptions), but that doesn't mean the result has a place on PA. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |