Why aren’t gay Christians accepted?
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Topic: Why aren’t gay Christians accepted?
Posted By: Man Overboard
Subject: Why aren’t gay Christians accepted?
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 10:01
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Among their church-going peers, I mean. Subject doesn't have much space... VERY off-topic for this site, I know, but this was REALLY bothering me today. Scenario A: 21-year-old churchgoing male is discovered to have gotten wasted at a party and knocked up a 15-year-old. His churchgoing peers ask him if he's repented, pray for him, and comment on how brave he is (WTF?). Scenario B: A different (obviously 
) 21-year-old churchgoing male is discovered to be gay. His
church-going peers condemn him, and likely tell him he's not welcome at
the church or with the 'community' anymore, but promise to pray for
him. If he continues going to the church, no one will talk to him and
parents will ask their children to stay away from him. Some brave
parents will tell him not to talk to their children. Optional: Sometimes, they'll pray for him right then and there. If he is not immediately turned straight, he is then outcast.
...what is WRONG with this picture!? Oh yeah, if the guy from scenario B somehow manages to do scenario A, he is possibly welcomed back for his heterosexual display. UGH! This doesn't make me ashamed of my faith, but it makes me sad for my peers. I don't recall Jesus saying "lol, you can be saved... unless you're teh gay. PWNED!!!11" When I was first discovering my sexuality, my faith was one of the things that kept me strong throughout. Can't say the same for my "peers".  ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Replies:
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 10:28
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We solved that problem differently. If the church rejects gay or lesbian people, why not found a new religion of your own? Which we did, and we are the High Priestesses of it. Currently we are 14 members in our religion, all women. Who knows to what size this religon will grow? -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 10:38
Please don't make the mistake of confusing different Christians. There
are a lot of different religions under the header of Christianity, and
not all of them really follow Yeshua. I'm positive that in my 'church',
gay Christians would not be expelled but aided. It's just a case of WWJD
------------- Epic. |
Posted By: Winterfamily
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 10:59
David Tibet of Current 93 did something similar in the late eighties: he chose Enid Blyton's character Noddy the Gnome as his personal image of God and developed a whole (and consistent) theology about it. Quite funny. However, he declares himself a bhuddist nowadays... Damn heretic!!! |
BaldFriede wrote:Posted By: Winterfamily
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 11:01
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BTW, BJean and BFriede, what is your creed about? Do you have scriptures? |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 11:20
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Just become atheists: the most sensible thing to do. no god to tell you what to do and how to do it. Seriously, this is the 21st Century, you'd think humans would be grown up enough to stop believing in a super-natural being counting your screw-ups to see if you are going to hell or not! Baldfriede, Starting a religion is likely to be sect and is game for you, since you are your own priestess but this stuff can get to your head quick and drive you to insanity. 14 women...... (vestry virgins I hope.....) Do you need a god? I could submit a resumé, if asked gently enough.... Just kidding of course but don't mess with that stuff because many are losing it quickly. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: maani
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 14:02
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Man Overboard: As JrKASperov notes, although there are many who call themselves "Christians," not all truly understand, much less follow, what is inherent in their faith. In this regard, your scenarios are dissimilar, and ultimately proceed from false assumption. The heterosexual person in Scenario A has committed a sin by having pre-marital sex. If he repents - sincerely, humbly, honestly - then he is forgiven by God, as long as he does not remain in sin; i.e., that he understands that what he did was wrong, and makes sincere efforts not to repeat the "sinful" behavior. The homosexual person in Scenario B is committing a sin by engaging in homosexuality. If he repents - sincerely, humbly, honestly - then he is forgiven by God, as long as he does not remain in sin; i.e., that he understands that what he is doing is wrong, and makes sincere efforts to end such behavior. (As an aside, I know of no church that would "welcome back" a "reformed" homosexual who has then committed a heterosexual sin. That person would then be "tasked" - not "applauded" - for committing that sin.) Notice the difference. The heterosexual person "has committed" a sin: i.e., it is in the past. The homosexual person "is committing" a sin; i.e., because it is the "lifestyle" that is sinful, the sin continues in the present. As I have noted in other threads, my belief here follows from Jesus' own actions and words in the case of the adulteress. We are all familiar with the fact that he tells her accusers, "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone." However, most people (even good Christians) forget the rest of it. He asks her, "Woman, where are thy accusers?" She responds, "They are gone." He then says, "Neither do I condemn you. Go, and sin no more." He does not condemn her; he provides loving forgiveness. However, neither does He expect her to "remain in sin": "Go, and sin no more." That is a command, not a suggestion. What He is essentially saying is, "You have sinned and almost suffered the penalty for that particular sin, which is death. I have shown your accusers that they are also sinful, and have saved you. However, since you now know that you have sinned, any further adultery on your part will be conscious and willful. In addition, I may not be there the next time to save you." Given that homosexuality and adultery were essentially "equal" sins - i.e., both were punishable by death by stoning - simply replace the adulteress with a homosexual. Jesus' words and actions would have been exactly the same: to not condemn, but rather be loving, compassionate and forgiving. But at the same time to be stern about not remaining in sin. Ultimately, Christians - if they truly follow Christ - are never supposed to judge or condemn. Rather, they are to follow the ten precepts of Jesus' ministry: love, peace, forgiveness, humility, compassion, patience, selflessness, charity, service and truth. Christians may have an obligation to inform homosexuals - lovingly, humbly, patiently - that their lifestyle does not comport with what God wants of them, and that they are "living in sin." However, once that "warning" is offered, it is incumbent upon Christians to treat homosexuals with the same love, peace, forgiveness, humility, compassion, patience, selflessness, charity, service and truth that they treat any other person, whether Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, atheist - or heterosexual. To do otherwise is simply not Christian. Peace. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 14:19
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There is not really a scripture, but if you are interested I can tell you about some of the rituals and the contents of the religion. I'd prefer to do so in private message though. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 14:27
I had to look up "prosternation" in a dictionary and came up with prosternation \Pros`ter*na"tion\, n. [F. See http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=prostration - Prostration .] Dejection; depression. [Obs.] --Wiseman. Are you sure about your choice of words? ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 14:33
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Yep, I was expecting exactly that from you Maani. It's obvious the difference is repenting or not. However, maybe the main point in your explanation is that sentence about "The homosexual person in Scenario B is committing a sin by engaging in homosexuality". Can you please enlighten us as to from which part of the scriptures do you take that conclusion? I'm not an expert in that, but I'm sure you'll find plenty of quotes there (please, Jesus words only). Also, I'd like to know your views about which can be the reason why most christian churches have forgotten that clear statement about the camel and the needle, that if I recall well is reported by three of the four evangelists. Why do churches state so clearly that homosexuals will never enter heaven but they don't condemn wealth?
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Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 15:36
To answer your last question nacho, it is a movement seen in the
'prophetic movement' and in many traditional churches. The lust for
money corrupts church leaders, and as such they will never condemn
wealth. I personally condemn wealth of material need without sharing,
as Yeshua promoted a sharing kind of existence. Homosexuality is really
an easy target, not yet accepted by society anyway, while wealth
is. 
------------- Epic. |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 16:39
Strange that 2 lesbos worship guysa!....are you sure you're dykes? |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 16:50
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Lesbians forming their own religion,ministers preaching that we should stone gays and Gdub making the worst pun I have ever seen!! i dont know which is the bigger crime This site gets Gaia and Gaia with every passing day... Welcome to Progarchives 2005 !!! Home to every musical,intellectual and social misfit on the planet. |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:07
That pun ruled...you're just jealous that a Brit didn't come up with it. Seriously, though, Bald John and Bald Fred post so often on this site, one wonders where they find time to perform in a band and run a restaurant as well. Also, one gets a feeling that they're just here to shamelessly promote the lp and then when they find out no-one gives a crap, they'll depart our fair forum for good. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:11
You are just jealous that you dont get all the homophobic attention any more! |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:18
Nah...I'm straight now. Maani cured me. Praise the Lord. Girls Rules. Lesbians turn me on. I want to see some coochie right now....Yeah! WOO HOO! |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:21
Bah,I dont believe any of it! You are just a little uptight! Why dont you go round Maani's and get stoned...... |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:37
That is how the cure took place...Maani is stoning me and then I heard one of the rocks speak.."Gdub, My name is Gaia and I forgive you for being gay...go forth and sin no more". |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:41
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What? The Rock said he was gayer? Gayer than who???? We all new he was gay,unfortunately Liz Taylor didnt! Anyway here's a picture that will send you back into the closet.....
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Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:44
Ha, ha...can't see it dork boy. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:46
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That's because you have a crap PC!
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Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:56
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Ah...I see it now. Yuk....chicks are better.
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 17:59
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You sure? |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 18:02
Hey,,,where did you ge tthat pic of Tuxxy's girlfriend? Now thats what I call a Gold Medal Girl. |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 19:31
That's not my girlfriend.
mine doesn't have a tattoo.
edit: I just found out she had it removed, a while after I met her ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 19:40
What tattoo???? |
Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: June 06 2005 at 19:41
Maani, help me out... this isn't to do with homosexuality (at least i hope not) but i was wondering if you could help me. When i was growing up i went to a church of england primary school. I used to believe in God because i was AFRAID not to, that school messed me up, i felt forced to go to church (we would get told off if we didn't). As a child i did not believe in God or any of the bible or that christianity works but i was too afraid of being punished. My teachers used to say things like "you will go to hell" or "you will be killed" or "you will be put in jail" if i didn't believe in god. They taught this to many of the children at school since we were naive we were all scared that we had to be believe in god or terrible things would happen to us. I finally had enough and turned my back on christianity (all because of my primary school enforcing it on me). I recently told a christian about this and they swore at me and said i was evil and that i am attacking christianity. I don't see how, just because i don't believe in it. I also do not believe that religion should be enforced. I was never baptised and therefore the teachers should not have made me feel as if i had to believe in god as a youth. Maani, you say: it is incumbent upon Christians to treat homosexuals with the same love, peace, forgiveness, humility, compassion, patience, selflessness, charity, service and truth that they treat any other person, whether Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, atheist - or heterosexual. To do otherwise is simply not Christian. surely my teachers and the christian that verbally attacked me are not following the above mentioned guidelines. I was wondering if you could give me your thoughts on all of this. Hope you reply! ------------- The Worthless Recluse 
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: June 07 2005 at 00:21
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Nacho: Why "Jesus' words only?" After all, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." 2 Tim. 3:16. In this regard, it is true that Jesus did not say anything specifically about homosexuality. But that is ultimately a moot point; there are dozens of things Jesus never said anything about or did, yet are clear and obvious within the "Christian construct," and living a "Christ-like" life. There are two main Scriptural passages that address homosexuality. The first, and harshest, is at Leviticus 18:22: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination." Note that the word "abomination" is even stronger than the word "sin," and denoted something that was truly "hateful" to God. The second, and more detailed, one is at Romans 1:26-27: "For even the women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature [i.e., God]. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing that which is shameful [read "sinful"], and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." (Bracketed comments are mine) Thus, the Scripture makes it clear that the homosexual lifestyle is inherently "sinful." Still, having said that, I reiterate that although a Christian may feel obligated to inform a homosexual family member or friend of this, it should never be done in a judgmental or condemning fashion, and that, once informed, the homosexual person should be treated with the same love, peace, humility, forgiveness, etc. that should be accorded anyone else if one is to truly live a "Christ-like" life. Frenchie: You are among way too many people for whom the "Church" (capital C) has been its own worst enemy. This is why so many Christians have rejected - and continue to reject, in growing numbers - organized, mainstream, hierarchical "religion" in favor of "home churches" and other alternative churches. "Christianity" lost its way when it become "politicized," and fell away from the most basic precepts of Jesus' life and ministry. It is often said that "Religion is about laws, rules and behavior; faith is about a relationship with God and Christ." While there is a place for "religion," faith is the more important of the two. The "Church" - and many supposedly faith-based political groups (including the so-called "Christian Right" here in the U.S.) - focus way too heavily on the former at the expense of the latter. Indeed, not only are they focused on "laws and behavior," but they also take Scripture out of context to support unloving, unforgiving and ultimately un-Christian views. You are 100% correct in believing that "religion should never be enforced" (though I'm pretty sure you mean "forced"). After all, faith cannot be "given," much less forced upon someone. It must come from inside. Even "religion" - the laws and behavior that underlie a "Christ-like" life - cannot, and should not, be "forced upon" anyone. This entire notion is antithetical to what Jesus did and taught. He Himself would preach in villages, on mountains, from boats offshore, anywhere he could. But He never "demanded" that anyone listen; people were free to listen or not - and, if they did listen, they were free to accept or reject what He offered. He never once judged or condemned anyone for choosing not to listen or to reject His teachings. And when He sent the apostles and disciples out to preach the Gospel, He told them to go to each house and offer the Gospel. But He also told them that if the people did not want to hear it, the apostle or disciple was to "shake the dust from their feet" and move on to the next house. That is, there was to be no "coercion"; the Gospel was to be preached lovingly, humbly and patiently, with no judgment or condemnation if someone chose not to hear it, or to reject it. The entire idea of "ram-it-down-your-throat" proselytizing is also anathema to Jesus' words and actions. Any Christian who would "attack" you for your lack of belief does not understand who Jesus was or what He was about, and thus does not understand their own faith. "Attack" infers judgment or condemnation, and the Scripture clearly admonishes Christians not to engage in either; that any and all "judgment" is reserved exclusively to Jesus "at the end." I am truly sorry that you were forced to undergo such harsh and un-Christian treatment, and that it led to you completely rejecting faith. If it is of any help, you need never be "afraid" of not believing. After all, "free will" is ultimately the freedom to accept or reject God. Thus, you are simply exercising your free will in rejecting Him. I can, of course, only hope that perhaps one day you will find some sort of inner faith - however that manifests itself - and feel comfortable expressing that faith without fear of condemnation. Peace. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 07 2005 at 03:23
In my dictionary in French: Prosterner is to bow low and to prostrate (to an altar or icon). Nothing to do with scatology, rest assured, and no psychiatry I could be wrong because there are a lot of Faux Amis between French and English (one of the most famous is Finally and Eventually are almost synonym in English but surely not in french: finalement is Finally but Eventuellement means in the possibility of) ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: June 07 2005 at 03:51
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OK Maani, if you consider that the whole scriptures are inspired by God himself, I have nothing else to say. Funny that something that is SO important to the churches today wasn't even mentioned by Jesus... (I see you don't comment about the camel and the needle...) I'm just curious, if you believe that the whole scriptures are inspired by God, how can you explain, if only to yourself, the 23rd chapter of Deuteronomy? Should we take it seriously? And what about that fantastic tale of the 600 years old Noah and his ark?
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Posted By: drbr
Date Posted: June 07 2005 at 05:36
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People, homosexuality or "homosexual lifestyle" is not sin. Please do
not listen to what "Christians" say because they either want to make
you feel bad or do it anyway. "Christians" want to go to heaven so they
tell as many others as possible that those are going to hell. This
increases their chances, they think. Hurting people is OK because it
is "respectful" to tell people they are sinners and are going to hell. If you are gay and believe in God, don't listen to "Christians" but instead ask Him why you are here and why He made you the way you are, and He will tell you that your purpose is love. He will tell you that loving somebody is never a sin and does not hurt anyone. You make the choice to love someone but who you fall in love with is not your decision, it is His. You will never know why you are gay, but it doesn't matter. There are millions like you and we are all part of His plan. Don't read the Bible like "Christians" do. The Bible is old and has been translated many times. It is not written by God but by man. And man wants you to feel bad. (He used to want to kill you, but he is not allowed to today.) God doesn't want you to feel bad. He is your father and friend and supports you and loves you just the way you are. Those who hate you and tell you that you are going to hell are not your friends. |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 07 2005 at 07:52
Can it be true? Can our thought patterns really be so similar? ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: June 07 2005 at 09:31
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People (especially those with low levels of education/exposure to the wider world) fear that which is different, and hate what they fear. This is a universal human failing. Add to that equation the longstanding Christian tradition of equating sexuality with sin (especially sexuality of the non-procreative variety), and you have the reasons why homosexuality tends to be condemned by many -- especially those of a more rigid, fundamental bent. My question, Man Overboard, is why does the lack of acceptance by ignorant, small-minded bigots upset you? It seems to me that in your situation I would not want to be "taken into the fold" by such people, because in order to gain that acceptance, I would have to compromise myself. Yes, being on the receiving end of bigotry and hatred still hurts at times, and we could wish for a nicer world, but this is the imperfect world we live in. When people disdain & disrespect you for no real reason, remember that the failing is THEIRS, not yours! "They" are NOT your peers, and "they" are not all going to suddenly change -- these things take generations -- so I advise you to stop worrying about the opinions of those who don't and WON'T understand or know you, and to live your life in the way that is right for you. Love and accept yourself, and you will find love from other worthy people. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: frenchie
Date Posted: June 07 2005 at 11:04
Many thanks. This helps me understand a lot more about how christianity should be run! Thank God i'm an atheist  ------------- The Worthless Recluse
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Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: June 09 2005 at 14:03
Aw  I wrote a big huge reply and then it disappeared  I'll recap. Maani: Many Christians would probably see our progressive music collections, and if they had any idea of the time, money, and love we've devoted to them, they would forget our sexualities almost immediately in order to focus on that. But I
don't see that as taking away from my spirituality... the way
some people look at something extremely delicate, rare, and beautiful
and take it as a sign of God's presence, so do I see a bit of the
divine's creation in the existance of some of this music, if that makes
sense and doesn't sound blasphemous (it's not meant to). Peter: Thank you for reminding me of this thread! With that whole flowerchild mess, I'd completely forgotten about it.
I agree with your points. I haven't been to a church since
2003... there was one I'd gone to for a few years, and when they
found out my oh so terrible secret, that was pretty much they end of
that. Where they'd once been so supportive and kind, they became
nearly demonic in their rejection of me. Those were wasted years
of my life... silly Pentacostals.  And now, completely random image:  ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: hope
Date Posted: June 09 2005 at 14:20
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it is not a sin to love anyone, and christians dotn look at it that way, to my knowledge......i am not a christian, let me be clear, and i dont believe in a deity that can respond to any supplication of mine ar anyone else's....but christians, i believe, for the most part look at the sin of gayness as being the way that homosexuals express their love for each other.... you can love people without having sexual relations with them, and you can have sexual relations without love being involved.....there are many men i love and even find attractive being a lover of art and natural beauty, but i do not desire intercourse with them.....there are many females i feel the exact same way about......i think human beings tend to be overwhelmed by their emotions towards others to the point that they confuse an affinity towards someone with a sexual attraction, and i am sure most of us have had this experience once or several times, and later looked back on it and understood that actions we may have taken were not the proper ones ------------- the wisest man is deemed insane |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 09 2005 at 16:06
Warning: Spoilers ahead.
The Bible in 50 WordsGod made, Adam bit, Noah There you go,no need to bother reading it now!! |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: June 09 2005 at 17:04
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^ Quoting DB now are you? ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: June 09 2005 at 21:38
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 10 2005 at 03:02
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: June 10 2005 at 03:17
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I don't like it!!! Tony has ruined the whole thing for me. The biggest hero ever seen in a cinema screen (when I was a small kid) is not there: where's Samson??? Eh???
------------- Eppur si muove |
Posted By: barbs
Date Posted: June 10 2005 at 03:25
Was this supposed to be the blasphemy or was he going to do that after because I don't think there's a blasphemy here.  ------------- Eternity |
Posted By: DallasBryan
Date Posted: June 10 2005 at 04:27
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thanks Tony, very enlightening, your wisdom is
shining!
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 10 2005 at 05:10
Some fundamentalist circles would declare a fatwah if they saw the scriptures slimmed/trimmed down to this post. In the Spanish inquisition , would we escape the pyre? ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: barbs
Date Posted: June 10 2005 at 05:26
I don't think so. Would they use the rack first?  They didn't seem to get the two greatest commandments. ------------- Eternity |
Posted By: nacho
Date Posted: June 10 2005 at 05:42
For when you reached the pyre stage you'd be grateful: some years ago there was an exhibition of old torture devices, and it was
------------- Eppur si muove |
. They would probably start with something not too extreme, like the thumb crusher (very versatile: it could be applied to other body parts).Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 10 2005 at 14:53
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Sorry,DB,but it had to be posted "Dallas-Style"
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June 10 2005 at 23:42
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My wife is openly bisexual. She's also Irish and a Catholic to boot. I accept her for what she is and she believes God does too. Besides, if God condemns homosexuality, then he must be an American Republican, and therefore a corrupt politician. And yes, we have threesomes, but that's none of your f**king business. |