Please seperate Post Rock and Math Rock
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Printed Date: July 10 2025 at 01:43
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Topic: Please seperate Post Rock and Math Rock
Posted By: seb2112
Subject: Please seperate Post Rock and Math Rock
Date Posted: April 09 2011 at 14:40
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Hi, I just registered so I can post this so I am new to the forum, but have been visiting the website daily for oer a year. First of all, thank you for bringing so much new music into my life. I am a picky b*****d when it comes to music of all genre, so its hard for me to find new stuff I really enjoy, so this website was perfect for me to sift through.
My one complaint is the following. I really enjoy math rock, although once again I am picky about which bands I like, but for reasons I won't bother to get into here, I despise 99% of post-rock. I don't understand why these 2 styles were merged into one on this website as they are completely seperate and distinct, unrelated styles. I'd love to be able to look through all the math rock bands on this site and give them all a fair listen, but it is impossible for me to do so without having to filter out all the post rock bands. If seperated both genres is too difficult/time consuming, is their anyway to post a list of the bands that fall under the actual math rock category? |
Replies:
Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: April 09 2011 at 14:54
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A category for math rock/metal/pop wouldn't be too bad; problem is there aren't enough progressive post-rock (or math) bands to maintain a separate subgenre for them after splitting Post/Math. And you'd have to separate the Post/Math team, and it's gonna be a lot of work for the collabs to do.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 09 2011 at 15:41
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Post Rock and Math Rock unrelated? Not really, they're twin genres, who overlapped in all the stages of their career (still do). I understand your problem, though. A split ain't gonna happen unfortunately. The general consensus is "no new genres", and we're too small and unimportant on PA to achieve this drastic improvement (but I confess I did think of it, and I'd support it). |
Posted By: Slaughternalia
Date Posted: April 09 2011 at 16:53
| They are definitely two separate genres. That being said, I also do not consider them to be sub-genres of progressive rock. If separating them is impossible, I think moving them to the "yellow" genres with proto-prog and prog related should be considered. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 09 2011 at 20:44
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they are undoubtedly separate genres and are getting more different by the day-- however, they are not unrelated, and are often lumped together in the Music Press/Industry Initially when PA first instituted a Mathrock subgenre, they were autonomous, but at this point it would be quite a project to separate them (though entirely possible) |
Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: April 09 2011 at 21:24
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The genre is to small to split at this stage. Perhaps as math rock's popularity grows the genre will split, as Art Rock did a few years back (into Heavy, Xover, and Eclectic). As of now, the math rock population is pretty tiny and couldn't support it's own genre. ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: April 09 2011 at 21:38
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Which is too bad because I have the same feeling as the OP. I like Math Rock based on what little I've heard, and would like to seek out more. I don't mind Post but am not specifically looking for it. That being said, I've also heard at least one band in RIO/Avant that sounds pretty math-y to me (Upsilon Acrux).
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 09 2011 at 23:14
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I like Acrux but they're a bit out there for Math (at least what I've heard) the genre is not too small to split, it's more a matter of political will |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 02:18
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You could also say that the genre is small enough to split now before it expands more, and thus creates much more work if one were to split it later. Now would be a good time. ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA! 
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 04:38
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It's not too small, Zeuhl has less than 40 bands. But I agree it's not going to happen. People just don't really want even more subgenres on PA and it would be unnecessary work. I'd rather the Post/Math people spent their time fixing the dreadful cut-paste from Wikipedia they've had for so many years. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 09:52
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Speaking personally, not as an admin, I cannot see the need for a split. The two genres are closely related, I have noticed quite a bit of debate on the net and in the music press about whether a band is post rock or math rock. The latest Classic Rock-Prog magazine ponders over one band (can't recall which) on that basis.
We have a number of wider ranging sub-genres, some of which are to me far more diverse than PR/MR. By way of background, the sub-genre was originally just Post Rock, but we were asked to allow Math rock to be included in the title which we agreed to.
Personally, I have some misgivings about the progressiveness of Post rock, and even more Math rock anyway. When we have split genres in the past (Metal and Art Rock), such splits have in my opinion widened the net each time. My concern here would be that bands get added because they are Math Rock, not because they are prog.
I don't was to open old wounds when it comes to previous splitting and renaming of sub-genres, so i will not say more on those. We are where we are. I think though we have diversified our definition of prog far enough, and should work within those we now have.
I would emphasis though that this is just one man's opinion. The thoughts of our members, and in particular our collaborators, genre specialists etc. will prevail.
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Posted By: seb2112
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 10:46
| Ok, so seperating the genres would be too complicated. Not going to get into any of the arguments about post rock and math rock being related/unrelated, part os the same sub genre or not. I'd just like to get a list of math rock bands worth checking out to expand my limited knowledge of the genre. So far I really enjoy Sleeping People, especially the self titled album, Don Caballero (What Burns, American Don & World Class..) and The Shy Trafficker. Besides BATTLES, I pretty much only enjoy instrumental math rock. Anyone have any suggestions? |
Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 12:13
ENTERhttp://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=2560" rel="nofollow - Russian Circles•Post Rock/Math rock
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seb2112 wrote:
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 12:22
Get Don Caballero 2 as well if you have those others. ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: seb2112
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 12:34
I have them all, I just enjoy 2 a bit less than the other albums I mentioned. I utterly dislike Punkgasm though. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 12:39
If the bands being considered have diverged from the original concept of the subgenre then a re-think at a far more fundamental level is needed than simply splitting the subgenre - to the point of perhaps dropping one half of the subgenre completely. ------------- What? |
Posted By: seb2112
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 13:20
I concider them more post rock than math rock, and as stated earlier, I'm not a fan of post rock, unless it is Godspeed you black emperor. Thanks though. Someone mentioned Upsilon Acrux, I just grabbed their whole discography and they are awesome so far. This and Ahleuchatistas is the kind of stuff I'm looking for! |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 14:09
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I agree that math-rock and post-rock are different. For me, correct me if I am wrong, post-rock = ethereal and slow with experimentations, math-rock = twisted and energetic
Also, I believe a band like dillinger Escape Plan is mathcore, which is different form extreme metal, since it is linked to punk-hardcore. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 14:25
Russian Circles are definitely math-rock, and they definitely have a very strong post-rock flavour indeed. That goes to show just how "unrelated" the two genres are.  Upsilon Acrux and Ahleuchatistas are close to math rock but still technical avant-prog, the ZARTers (that stands for Zeuhl-Avant-RIO-Team) will give you better advice about that area. 
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 15:27
That's interesting Bob, what math rock did you try to give you that impression? To my ears, math-rock is one of the most purely progressive and even "prog" of the genres here. They've got everything it takes: outstanding, tight interplay, intricate time sigs and complex compositions. The drawback is that they're usually guitar power trios, so they don't have the rich sound coming from organs, mellotrons, flutes, etc. But they do make up for this in the other departments I mentioned. When I compare it to other genres, math-rock usually wins for me in what regards the progressive content, because none of the major classic prog genres are really pure here; there are many melodic bands in Symphonic, many blues bands in Heavy, many folk bands in prog-folk, etc. Also, while the other "classic" genres have the option to pass the "almost fit, but not really" bands to the Crossover prog category, crossover math-rock bands don't receive this treatement, by the choice of the math-rock team (like it can be seen http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=75642" rel="nofollow - here ). IMO this makes math-rock one of the most pure and "clean" genres on PA. Now post-rock, that's another story. That's a style based on atmospheres and the dissolution of form, rather than assertiveness and the embellishment of form, and as a genre it is based on forerunners from the periphery of 70s progressive rock, like krautrock, early electronic, chamber rock - all genres and styles that are never going to be considered prog, regardless how much we'll say that progressive rock is more than prog. We in the post-rock team are basing our evaluation exclusively on the progressive-ness of the material, that I can vouch for. But nothing is going to make that "classic", typical post-rock sound resemble that of "prog". Also, I think that the mentions of the Metal and Art Rock splits put this discussion in the correct perspective. Now those were some needed splits. However, I understand that the Admin team agreed upon the split of RIO from the mother avant-prog category, a split for a few tens of bands... |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 16:24
------------- What? |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 16:31
^ or maybe something got "lost in translation" from someone to me. 
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Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 17:46
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Interesting point about the "purity" of mathrock Harmonium! As you can probably tell from the thread you cited I disagree with the idea of that purity. I would like to see mathrock as a seperate genre because to me it seems that the current team tends to be experts on post-rock but when it comes to math-rock they tend to ignore changes in the scene that they don't like (like the trend to math-pop) If math rock were a seperate sub I feel like more people would take notice of it and take a listen (especially since math rock is not highly represented in the top albums of post/math) also it would allow for more math rock bands to get added and eliminate the confustion of people not trying Battles because they don't like Sigur Ros even though the two bands sound nothing alike. Keeping the two together because they come from the same scene is crazy they are nothing alike.------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 17:55
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it's worth noting we're lucky to have a Mathrock distinction at all - |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: April 10 2011 at 17:57
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^^^
this is also true. certainly better than post/experimental like it used to be ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 02:18
I haven't heard Punkgasm. I'll suggest this album too: http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=22019" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=22019 ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 06:10
I disagree on most counts. You may be confusing the math-rock team with the post-rock team. I'm not an expert in math-rock indeed, but the post-rock team doesn't handle math-rock. David of the math-rock team however remains the most knowledgeable person in math-rock that I know. Also, with Enter on #2, American Don on #4 and Don Cab 2 on #5 I don't think math rock is not represented well in the category chart. That's about as popular math rock gets on PA.
True that.
Exp/Post was perfect back then and it was a very adequate description of what was in. Math-rock bands weren't misrepresented by that category title for the simple reason that most math rock bands were in avant-prog back then.  |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 07:44
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Math rock is a very worthy genre with some excellent bands but they are always going to be related to another genre, and Post Rock is the twin genre, or at least closest relation.
The reviews will distinguish whether the genre is Post or Math I should suspect. ------------- 
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 12:44
| ^ and the biographies. It is a project of mine to have each bio state whether it's a post rock or a math-rock band that we're dealing with. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 13:50
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^ agree with both of you |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 16:49
------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 17:20
| ^ well as per Easy Livin's description, it is important the bands be progressive as well as bonafide Mathrock |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 17:27
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^^^
I feel like adding a poppy edge makes these bands MORE progressive after all almost all the bands of the 70s movement were poppy as hell. ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 17:31
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Anyway I have also advocated these bands be added to crossover as they are way more deserving of a place as crossovers more confusing additions ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: seb2112
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 17:42
That would be more than good enoug, especially if this were specified when someone searches through the website alphabetically. |
Posted By: seb2112
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 17:44
I absolutely LOVE their FEAR DRAWS MISFORTUNE album, but hated INTRODUCING LEMON album everyone raves about. thats about all the Cheer-Accident I could get my hands on, I'll try and find BABIES SHOULDN'T SMOKE, thanks for the recomandation |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 17:46
95% of bands added as Mathrock are specified as such in their bios |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 17:46
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lol, hipster rage.
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 18:11
| If you don't know what is math rock... |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 11 2011 at 20:30
Absolutely agreed to ... and if the band is so concerned about what their music is called, or what it should be ... well ... you know that's not a very progressive thought right? ... so why is the question and request even important? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 12 2011 at 01:34
------------- What? |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 12 2011 at 02:21
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not all blue berries are blueberries
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Posted By: iliakis
Date Posted: May 09 2011 at 15:26
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The problem is that when for example Im trying to dig in a category (being a math rock and post rock fun!) and searching for highly energetic, crazy rythmicism, punky sounding math, I m founding the opossite! Slow tempos, simple rythms, walls of disto ambient sounds! please SEPERATE THEM!!!!!!!
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Posted By: seb2112
Date Posted: May 09 2011 at 18:21
Exactly! |
Posted By: seb2112
Date Posted: May 19 2011 at 17:57
| I actually managed to go through every band one by one to see which ones are math rock, and then give them all a listen. Took about 2 hours. discovered a lot of good music I didn't know about, my favorite of them probably being Cheval De Frise |
Posted By: iliakis
Date Posted: June 02 2011 at 18:03
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hei seb could you write down the math groups here?It could be helpfull, I also tryied to search every band one by one but it was before 1 year.SEPARATE-SEPARATE!!! |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 02 2011 at 20:59
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OK, so I like Explosions In The Sky, Maserati, and now Mono. Which of the two are these?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: June 02 2011 at 22:08
| Mono is Post-Rock. I believe Explosions is as well but I've never listened to them. Haven't heard of Maserati before. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 02 2011 at 22:24
Definitely. |
Posted By: seb2112
Date Posted: June 03 2011 at 11:16
I didn't make a list of math rock bands, I gave everything that seemed math rock related by their bio a listen and kept a list of what I liked. So the best I can offer you is a list of math rock bands currently found on my IPOD. I included a list of mathy-RIO/avant prog bands. So not only are all of these math related, but they are personnaly recommended by me (keep in mind I might list a band of which I only enjoy 1 or 2 albums out of many) and some of these I discovered through related videos on youtube so they aren't even on PA yet. Oh and these are 95% instrumental, I don't really enjoy vocals in prog music. MATH ROCK: Auto! Automatic!! Battles Don Caballero (a logical starting point for anyone unaware of the genre) El Pin Meldou Giraffes? Giraffes! Japandi Jardin De La Croix Lite Rumah Sakit (highly recommanded!) The Shy Trafficker Sleeping People Té Tera Melos Time Columns MATH-RELATED RIO/AVANT PROG: Aheulchatistas (just don't start with the last one, it's pure noise and IMO boring as f**k) Cheval De Frise (HIGHLY recommanded, every album!) Upsilon Acrux (highly recommend everything except the debute album) Hope this helped a bit |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 03 2011 at 19:53
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^ that's a great little list |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 02:12
Exactly, they are two entirely different genres and both are fundamental to the future of prog rock, unless people want to keep repeating a watered down version of the 70s. The only reason they are combined is that they come from the same generation in a similar point of time. Its not even close to precise musicology to have them combined. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 02:21
^ PA (a database) is IMO organized more according to library science (I was sured this would be "biblioteconomy" in English too but apparently that was a barbarism on my behalf) than to musicology. That means the inherent criteria provided by the info in itself (musicological criteria in this case) are used to create multiple ways of easy access to the info, of which a list of major categories as short as possible is a key element. 
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 08:40
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^ Thats a fairly confusing response. If you want 'easy access to the info', then you put bands of the same genre together. Mixing two entirely different genres together for people to dig through and separate by further reading is slow and cumbersome.
In other words, if someone is looking for a post rock band, looking at a list of post rock bands is far more efficient than looking at a list that combines post rock bands with bands that are almost the opposite and requires that people go into further reading to find the bands they are looking for. Do people realize that these two genres are practically exact opposites of each other? |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 10:32
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^ that's not true, like I said above in this thread post rock and math rock are twin genres both historically and stylistically, and putting them together makes sense (if a certain maximum number of main categories has to be achieved). I don't see why putting two things together is bad, especially if the pairings make sense: my library was indicating at entrance that Level 1 is for Periodicals, Level 2 was for Humanities (which meant that Room A had, in this order, Art History, then Aesthetics, then Literature; Room B had Philosophy, Social Sciences and History; you could enter the rooms through separate doors, but while inside you also noticed that the two rooms communicated and you could take books from one to get them at your desk from the other room); and Level 3 was for exact sciences. In order for my comparison to work 100% it would be needed to have a technical solution for when entering the Post Rock / Math Rock "room", the "books" from the two sub-categories to be placed in continuation, not mixed up - but that's PA's layout's fault. But if it is important to have 22 categories instead of 23, then I prefer to have Post Rock mixed with Math Rock and not Prog Folk or something random like that. However, I find it surprising that you find these two genres "practically exact opposite of each other", but you don't appear to have championed the split during your period as an admin, when you had the power to do it.
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Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 11:07
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^^^
Why can we not organize the way JMA is with a classic prog area and subs a metal area and subs a modern sounds area and subs etc. ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 11:14
Isn't math rock (at heart) just a sub-genre of heavy prog? Couldn't the math rock bands just mostly be merged into heavy prog? 
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 11:27
This is about splitting further not about merging Rob. And yes, some Math Rock bands are quite heavy, but so are many bands from Prog Folk, Avant-prog, Psych/Space, Kraut, Fusion, etc.
I think I might be willing to reconsider my http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=78755&PID=4183377#4183377" rel="nofollow - proverbial strong dislike for the MMA/JMA layout if it got us more categories to do some further splitting. But as the admins who posted in this thread said, it's probably not going to happen (well maybe they'd reconsider their position, in front of an overwhelming user support for the idea?) |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 11:35
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Kind of silly for us to argue this as we aren't the ones who can change anything.
I wonder what is the rational for having such totally different genres grouped together in the minds of those who make these decisions. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 11:42
Now are we sure this article isn't just describing Rush? Honestly, I don't see enough uniqueness in math rock as a whole for it to be separate from heavy prog in the first place (whereas prog folk, psych/space, etc. have consistent, distinct styles that are more than just "heaviness"). Math rock uses odd time signatures- so what? That's a common distinction of prog as a whole. It uses dissonant chords- likewise. Atypical rhythmic structures- likewise. The only thing math rock is...is heavy prog. Am I wrong here? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 11:46
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The only way to really know a genre is listen to a lot of bands in that genre.
Has anybody in this discussion listened to a lot of different math rock and post rock bands? |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 11:47
Now this quote makes a good follow up to the above quote. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 11:50
IMO yes, but it goes down to our different perceptions of the same thing so we can't possibly settle this. To me math rock is one of the genres with the most pronounced identity. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 11:57
Here:
and
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:02
When I listen to post rock, I usually wind up like this:  Post rock tends to consist of the exact same techniques (lots of tremolo picking), employed with an large degree of repetition, all called by longwinded, conversational titles ("I Took the Elevator to the Second Floor, but You Weren't Waiting There for Me, So I Flew Back to Mars.")All the math rock I've ever heard sounds like heavy prog or closer to just sophisticated rock music, but as Alex says, that's just my perception. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:06
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Alex, I appreciate your attempt to be a spokesperson for others, but neither of the responses you posted address the fact that two entirely different genres are grouped together as if they have any similarity.
If the people who decide such things don't want to answer for themselves, then there is not much point in continuing my query. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:06
| Don't get me wrong Rob, if a reduction of categories would be implemented, I would also put math rock bands in either Heavy Prog or Avant-prog. It's just that my feeling is that at this certain stage of development of the main categories, Math Rock deserves a category (even if only a split one). |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:10
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I don't know anything about math rock, as I've avoided it. I associated it once with Dillinger Escape Plan, and I hate that band, so I've avoided math rock as best I could. Post rock, though, I've fell in love with (well, post rock + post metal). When I think of post rock, just rock, I think of Sigur Ros and with them I think of ethereal, dreamy soundscapes and long, slow build-and-release formulas. I think of either highly distorted background picking, or highly undistorted foreground picking. I think of dense and surrounding recording techniques, and I think of the band going 'oh-okay, we're gonna focus on the notes instead of the structures', and finally, when I think of post rock, I think of a bar of wood that also happens to be a stone boulder. When I think of math rock, all I can picture is Cynic without the death metal aspect, or "tech prog for Rush fans" or what have you.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:10
I really don't know what are you trying to do here. Both David (of the Math Rock team) and myself (of the Post Rock team) have already made several posts in ourt quality of genre specialists. It's not "others" who need to speak, we have spoken already. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:14
The addition of Math Rock was proposed back in 2007 by Ruben (Chamberry), who was part of the Experimental/Post Rock team at the time. Assaf (Avestin) suggested adding it to the ZART empire, however through discussions between Ruben and Jody (The Progtologist), it was decided to incorporate "Math Rock" into the Post-Rock sub and at the same time drop the somewhat meaningless "Experimental" tag. In other words, the Admins acted on the advice of the Genre team members at that time. ------------- What? |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:14
Yeah, that's quite a wrong impression. DEP are not representative of math rock, they're mathcore (which is quite a different kettle of fish). Also, there is plenty fast paced and interplay based post rock, but they're very little known here outside a small club of fans. Only the bands that you and Rob have described get "press" here. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:18
Thanks, but why are they still together? I know you are very familiar with post rock, but I don't know if you are familiar with much math rock, all the same it wouldn't surprise me if you were. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:35
They are together because this discussion isn't over yet
 I know enough Math Rock to enjoy some of it and run screaming from others, but I don't know enough to be a genre expert, however, I don't have to be one - that's what Alex and David are here for.
From my own personal view, the addition of Math Rock to this site broadened the entry-criteria of the Experimental/Post-Rock subgenre that allowed entry of Math Rock bands that were closer to Mathcore and Noise Rock than the original intention for the subgenre, this is highlighted by the simple observation that initially having the Post and Math together really wasn't an issue. As I said previously, if there is an issue now, perhaps it's time to rethink. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:35
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It would be interesting to see what our post rock and math rock specialists recommend at this time.
Umnfortunately Golden Spiral hasn't been around in a couple months, same for Chris H, and make that a year for Dim. Angelmk is the only member of either team who is around. I wonder if he has been asked his opinion on having these two desperate styles merged together. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:38
What?  That's about 0% percent accurate. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:42
David's previous quote seems to imply a definite stylistic split, but a concern for logistics which is understandable. Anyway, I wouldn't insist the site do anything, but they do strike me as hugely different genres. It seems to me that the fans of the genres are most concerned about their coupling and those who don't listen to either of them much don't get the need for any concern. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:43
Sorry Alex, that was posted for Dean to check out. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:49
My team member list is based on what is listed on the collaborator page. If there has been a change in membership that is not yet listed, let me know. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:52
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Judging by the way you checked your facts I am now enlightened about the seriousness of your input. This is the last post I address you. The Post Rock team consists of me, Angel (who is NOT a member of the math rock team) and until recently of Slava (which is now helping you with JMA). Unfortunately none of the past Post Rock team members visits anymore. But as Dean said, the development we are talking about was done by the Collabs themselves, the Admins only approved. That answers your question for Dean (which he already answered). The Math Rock specialist (who managed the subgenre from the very beginning) is David (Atavachron), and he also spoke his mind on this thread. To recapitaluate, the Post Rock and Math Rock teams would be in favour of a split, but the support is too slim to go against the general consensus of "we don't need more categories". Your trolling doesn't really count as support. OK, I'm done. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 12:53
What is listed on the category page contradicts your story and confirms mine. That's where you should look. Past Collabs don't loose their rank and title if they stop being around (usually). |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 13:02
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OK, so the current team for post and math rock is actually Anglmk, Atavachron, Alex and maybe Slava. It just hasn't been updated on the collab page yet.
It seems to me that these are the people who can best recommend a split or not, or at least their opinion should be taken into strong consideration. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 14:02
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Well, David and Alex have given their opinions and Angel and Slava have both visited the forum today, so I assume they're happy with what Alex and David have said so far. Jody is also still suggesting bands to the Math Rock team so perhaps his opinion is worth garnering since he was intrumental setting up the initial pairing. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 14:15
------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 14:16
------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 14:17
------------- What? |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 17:12
Its a large busy site, its hard to keep up with all that, people come and go all the time. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 17:19
All that sounds good, from what I can tell, David and Alex sort of support a split but don't want to cause problems, which seems like a reasonable stance. I (or anyone else that I know of) haven't mentioned this to Slava specifically, so I'm not sure of his opinion, but I'm making an educated guess that he would probably support it too. I'll send him a message so he can respond himself. Thanks for looking into this. Its totally understandable how they ended up together in the first place. I think Bob's caution about new genres causing more non-prog additions is wise and prudent and I have used that line of thinking as a model on decisions myself, but I think this is a unique situation. It just seems to me that they are such different genres that combining them just doesn't seem right. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: June 04 2011 at 17:30
| Just had a quick chat with Slava about it and he says he will drop by tomorrow and check it out. |
Posted By: snobb
Date Posted: June 05 2011 at 08:10
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I'm sorry for my delay, being busy on JMA I am far not regular PA visitor.
It happened to be Post/Math rock team's member for me for some time, so I have some comments just from my previous experience. I think Post-Rock and Math are quite different genres and are related for sure but possibly on the level as some other prog genres are related between each other. Having them both as one tag/team has historical reason on PA and possibly the other reason is both genres has not too much fans (the number of artists are not so small and are growing, both genres aren't "archive" as Canterbury for example). So, speaking from musicological point of view I believe their separation would have sense. Another question is such separation will lead to forming of two small genres teams (but in fact same situation occurs now but just isn't formalized) |
Posted By: EchidnasArf
Date Posted: July 11 2011 at 03:45
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To the OP and anyone else interested in some math rock recommendations, a few personal favorites are: Zach Hill and Peer Pressure - Astrological Straits (god, everyone needs this album) Bygones - By - (10 killer songs between Nick Reinhart of Tera Melos and Zach Hill. seriously rad.) Hella - Hold Your Horse Is* (my introduction to math rock. all instrumental. a classic) Hella - There's No 666 In Outer Space (sick. to my knowledge, the first Hella release with a prominent vocalist. kind of a more raw, mathier TMV... or something. you decide.) *fixed  All 4 of these albums feature the one of a kind Zach Hill on drums and he is a f*****g animal on every track. Zach Hill is the essential math rock drummer IMO. Also... I feel like I may be kicking a dead horse here, so I'll make it short and sweet. I too feel like these 2 genres are on the verge of opposites musically, although they may have similarities in origination. I'd like to see an individual math rock category, but I also understand if it's too much of an undertaking to achieve this. ------------- http://didyouseethosebats.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - Did You See Those Bats? (a few songs from my band's live radio show) 
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 11 2011 at 08:57
Republic of Rough and Ready is a song from the album Hold Your Horse Is, I have no idea who you are referring to as Peer Pressure but quite a few people play on Astrological Straits (I found it a bit too poppy and repetitive for my taste), and There's No 666 In Outer Space is the only Hella release with a singer--thankfully, they fired him and the bassist in 2009, so the new album being released in August is back to the two of them. You can hear a song from the new album http://hella.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - here . You should listen to http://omardigital.rodriguezlopezproductions.com/album/cryptomnesia" rel="nofollow - Cryptomnesia if you liked There's No 666, though. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: EchidnasArf
Date Posted: July 11 2011 at 12:27
 Hah, my mistake. I was listening to the song "Republic of Rough and Ready" when I was typing that. Hold Your Horse Is has been one of my favorite albums since '04. He was going under the moniker "Zach Hill and Peer Pressure" when he released and toured Astrological Straits. The moniker referred to his band and his drumset (go figure). Just search Zach Hill and Peer Pressure to find some press about this project. And Astrological Straits is poppy like Dillinger Escape Plan is easy listening. If you liked Cryptomnesia or any of his work with Hella, you need to give Astrological Straits another chance. The drumming is out of this world. It is a drum album first and foremost. Now someone buy me this shirt please. ------------- http://didyouseethosebats.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - Did You See Those Bats? (a few songs from my band's live radio show)
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 11 2011 at 14:00
| How did this thread turn into Zach Hill is teh awesome? |
Posted By: EchidnasArf
Date Posted: July 11 2011 at 14:05
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When Henry Plainview pointed out my mistake and said he hadn't heard of Peer Pressure. ------------- http://didyouseethosebats.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - Did You See Those Bats? (a few songs from my band's live radio show)
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 11 2011 at 17:34
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The topic is a mildly important one of whether Post and Math rock should remain a dual genre. The central issue is; though Post and Math rock are musicologically related and often lumped together, they have become distinct styles that may or may not appeal to fans of either style. The process of finding and separating bands in the two genres would be laborious and time consuming but not impossible, as over 90% of Mathrock is noted as such in the biography of a given Mathrock band. |
Posted By: angelmk
Date Posted: July 11 2011 at 19:49
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Post rock and Math rock are not totally different genres, they are related enough to be put in one category, so i am happy with current situation having those together. BUT they have enough distinctive features to be genres of their own, separate genres, and i wouldn't object if someone is willing to split those genres and do that split since it is time consuming job and requires hard work . We will have another problem with recruiting math rock team members cos there aren't many experts on math rock on PA if any, except David. ------------- www.last.fm/user/angelmk 
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