Music vs lyrics
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Topic: Music vs lyrics
Posted By: krimson62
Subject: Music vs lyrics
Date Posted: April 20 2011 at 13:52
| I've just listened to The Lamb... after 30 years of having it stored away. Absulutely amazing. New textures, soundscapes that i never noticed 30 years ago (or maybe i didn't notice it at the time) Mind you, this is on a vinyl record not a remixed, remastered cd, so this is the same"object" i heard way back. The lyrics in prog though can be quite silly compared to the music itself. 30 years from now i'm sure that the music will still be amazing but the lyrics, for most part will trivialize the art |
Replies:
Posted By: caretaker
Date Posted: April 20 2011 at 16:17
| Personally, I am interested in the lyrics but they aren't crucial to my enjoyment of the music. As long as they are performed well and complement the music. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 20 2011 at 16:36
But seriously, if you are referring to most prog lyrics or the Lamb in particular, I don't see it. When the lyrics are silly it is because that is what the artist intended. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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krimson62 wrote:Posted By: let prog reign
Date Posted: April 20 2011 at 17:38
The lyrics are silly but that's certainly no reason to hate the music. And besides it's better than singing about boats n hoes.  Other classic progressive rock artists have great lyricism. Like King Crimson (specifically ITCOTCK) or Van Der Graaf Generator. And look at Pink Floyd! Amazing. ------------- Once upon a time there was some writing on the wall we all ignored, until the time that there was war and feasts of famine at our door |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 20 2011 at 20:43
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Hi,
I never thought that the "lyrics" had anything to do with "progressive" or wether a piece of music was good or bad.
It's about the totality of the work, and the integration of the work.
I don't think that "The Lamb" can be done without lyrics ... parts of the music are way too vivid, and the lyrics help us go there, and make more sense of it all than otherwise, but then, I can not sit here and tell you ... that Tales from Topographic Oceans is better, or worse, without the lyrics .... I don't think that it is as good without the lyrics and I like listening to the passion and dedication that Jon Anderson put into this ... that has made it such a spetacular piece of work all these years.
We don't sit here and say we don;t like Beethoven or Brahams or anyone else, because they did not have lyrics !!! ... we can sit here and say that we like "The Lamb" better with Peter and "Tales" better with Jon ... but this is because they were the originators fo the work ... is Beethoven's 9th any worse because all of a sudden it has some "lyrics" in a choir?
I never separate the totality of the work, and this is the reason why "songs" don't usually make it for me as "progressive" because the talent margin between one type of work, and the other is immense ... and sometimes we're too stuck on our demands, not what someone has done ... and if we don't like Peter Hammill's voice, no concept will ever work in his music regardless! ... even if it is Gog and Magog!
To me, the voice is a part of the whole -- another instrument ... which is the reason why sometimes I really don't like to hear discussions about singers and why someone doesn't like Labrie or something else ... because all of a sudden it is not about the music and its totality ... it's about that one person's preferences!
Now go back and listen to "Passion Play" ... and then "Tales of Topographic Oceans" .... and then "A Tab in the Ocean" ... and then ... there are many very special things out there that defined that time and place that can't be done today ... because we're so damn commercialized that we can not appreciate the little things that make it good.
I tell you what helped me 36 years ago ... getting a good stereo and speakers (ESS AMT-1 Heils) ... because all of a sudden Deep Purple and Rolling Stones sounded like crap ... but Tangerine Dream? Pink Floyd? ... Krautrock? ... yeah ... now you know! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 20 2011 at 20:49
| I don't know about lyrics trivializing art but I don't pay that much attention to lyrics to come to any such conclusion because for me, it's first and foremost about the music. Some of the best music I have heard were written for essentially dumb love songs and if I am supposed to berate that on account of lyrics, I will do no such thing and furthermore think such an approach is being needlessly close minded. If the music speaks to you, you don't need lyrics to tell you what it means. |
Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: April 20 2011 at 23:02
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I'd have to say that the actual music is my main point of interest. I've always preferred instrumental music anyway. Some vocalists tend to be supremely annoying, such as Peter Hammill and Peter Gabriel, which makes me totally not care at all what they have to say in their lyrics. ------------- http://hanashukketsu.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Hanashukketsu |
Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: April 20 2011 at 23:31
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I like books with pictures. Some writers are quite annoying, so if there are pictures I don't care much about words. ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: April 21 2011 at 01:42
| I like some conceptual thinking in my music. I want a layer of meaning when it comes to composition and lyrics can provide that (as well as atmospheric composition, clever concepts or titles that actually mean something). |
Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: April 23 2011 at 17:32
| I also like concept ideas in prog. That is why I love Fish-era Marillion. But, in general, if something about the music doesn't stimulate me, then I probably will not be into that particular band... |
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: April 23 2011 at 17:43
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The lyrics in The Lamb are fine, very surrealistic and excellent. /thread. ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: Slaughternalia
Date Posted: April 23 2011 at 17:44
| Good lyrics are always nice, but I can look past bad lyrics such as ELP or Yes. The music is what really counts. |
Posted By: Hoipolloi
Date Posted: April 24 2011 at 00:49
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A classic example of this is Van der Graaf Generator. I find the lyrics that are written in most of their songs are very "complex" and "dark." But that's what makes VDGG an excellent Prog band. Their music might be a little crazy at times, but it complements the lyrics to which the artist intended. You have to think of the style of the band before stating whether or not they are purely a "musical" or "lyrical" sounding band. Either or shouldn't bog down a proper Prog band. |
Posted By: MoodyRush
Date Posted: April 24 2011 at 19:27
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For the most part, I listen to the music over the lyrics. Now that I listen to some foreign language stuff (PFM, Magma) with lyrics not even in my tongue, the music is the primary focus for my attention. Though if the band is one I truly admire, I will search their lyrics to discover what they're singing about, for a good song is made better by good complementing lyrics. ------------- Follow me down to the valley below. Moonlight is bleeding from out of your soul. -Lazarus |
Posted By: Ozexpat
Date Posted: April 24 2011 at 22:38
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The human voice is just another instrument and providing it makes pleasant noises that suit the rest of the band, then all is good. Lyrics are just another part of it. Do you need lyrics ? No. Do they add to the overall performance ? Yes they can.
Not using lyrics never held Thys Van Leer back, did it ? ------------- And for a moment when our world had filled the skies, Magic turned our eyes, To feast on the treasure set for our strange device |
Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: April 24 2011 at 23:31
If pleasant voice in my native language sings mediocre bullsh*t I say goodbye to singer, no matter how good music is. Though in case of other languages I agree, voice is just another instrument. ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: April 25 2011 at 02:33
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I personally like the concept and lyrics of The Lamb. And a proof that they are interesting is that people are still arguing about their meaning.
And indeed you should be punished for not listening to The Lamb for 30 years...
 |
Posted By: yanch
Date Posted: April 25 2011 at 06:37
| I do enjoy good lyrics and lyrics that make me think, such as TAAB, APP, Pink Floyd, and Fish era Marillion. However, lyrics don't have to be great or thought-provoking to make a song work. There are a lot of bands whose lyrics are not great, but fit the melody and the entire song, which is also very enjoyable. As mentioned above, good lyrics are nice but not always critical to a song or bands success. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 25 2011 at 06:47
 But on another note I don't buy into the notion that the voice is a musical instrument. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: clarkpegasus4001
Date Posted: April 25 2011 at 07:36
My sentiments exactly ------------- Tony C. |
Posted By: MoodyRush
Date Posted: April 25 2011 at 16:31
In what regard do you mean voice is not an instrument?
Obviously, the voice has pitch, so it's an instrument in that regard, but likely you have another meaning to your connotation of "musical instrument". For an example of voice strictly as an instrument, To Be Over (by Yes) has chanting over the outro. No lyrics are intelligible to my ear, but I love that section and the vocal effect used there. ------------- Follow me down to the valley below. Moonlight is bleeding from out of your soul. -Lazarus |
Posted By: OT Räihälä
Date Posted: April 26 2011 at 13:54
A human voice differs from instruments mostly in that it is more "personal" than any other instrument. You can alter the sound of other instruments, especially typical electric rock instruments, but whatever you do, you can't really change the nature of your singing voice. The only change is to study a better technique. If a singer has a "bad" voice, then either live with that or change the singer to a "better" one. Some singers tend to use their voice in a more instrumental way (i.e. Jon Anderson) than others. Basically, pop music is about songs. Prog rock is the only area of pop music, where leaving sung melodies/lyrics out is normal. To me, lyrics must have a cause as much as the use of, say, guitar, drums, bass or keyboards, especially in prog. If there are lyrics, there must be a reason for them. But on the other hand, I don't have the need to understand the lyrics, because I don't expect to understand the music. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/osmotapioraihala/sets" rel="nofollow - Composer - Click to listen to my works! |
Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: April 27 2011 at 03:17
It's funny that you mention the lamb recording because this seems to be the music that split the band resulting in Peter Gabriel leaving Genesis. The other band members were put out that Gabriel insisted on doing all the lyrics because the Lamb was Gabriel's concept. Personally I find some of the lyrics on the Lamb so obscure as to affect my enjoyment of the work. I think the Lamb would have worked better if there had been more team involvement. I don't think you can ignore the lyrics to the music. It's like taking out the the guitar solo in Firth of Fifth if you remove a really good lyrical line. The music is the sum total of all the various parts. When everything comes together you have a masterpiece!
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Posted By: TLM170
Date Posted: April 27 2011 at 09:56
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I never listen to the lyrics. to the point that I'll know the word but never put them together in my head. me and my girlfriend were looking for a song for our wedding and she made me realise how sad is the music that I listen too. |
Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: April 27 2011 at 13:23
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^ If you don't want to be sad all the time don't forget to put your wife's words together in your head. ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: giselle
Date Posted: April 28 2011 at 02:07
As a generalisation, this tends to be true.
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Posted By: TLM170
Date Posted: April 28 2011 at 07:45
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Posted By: medanum6298
Date Posted: April 28 2011 at 21:20
------------- http://spam.com" rel="nofollow - spam |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 10:01
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Lyrics are for explaining what is too complex to get across with music alone..... If you're gonna sing about what a lovely day it is, I'd rather you just conveyed that with some pleasant music........ but if you're gonna be describing a massive flaw in society and the human condition, then it's probably wise to use your voice in addition to a guitar! Lyrics are not always necessary, is what I'm saying. When they are, they have to be good or they ruin the music. You can say the same about a piano or a guitar....... so the voice really is just another instrument. It certainly has more clarity than other instruments, but sometimes ambiguity is better. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 10:57
| But a great singer can lift average-to-good songs and make them great because the listener relates more to the human voice than instruments. It is a more human element after all. Even with the human voice, words are not absolutely necessary but very few singers have the skill to emote in an appealing way on vocalisations, so the singer is better off with words. And as a wannabe (W capitalized) singer, I find that simple but poignant lyrics that convey the message aptly make the singer's job a lot easier. It's an unenviable task to sing Jon Anderson-like lyrics (well, nobody asked him to, one could argue). Words tell the singer how to attack the song and good lyrics supply the spots to be emphasised more and so on. Good lyrics for a singer though would be a little different from what a listener would understand as good (i.e. profound, intellectual, poetic, blah blah). |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 11:09
I have to take the contrary position on that one. Instrumental music can express things that are too complex for lyrics to convey. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 11:25
I'm going to have to take the middle-road stance. I agree with both. Whatever makes the music more emotionally impacting, I say. Be lyrically profound, be instrumentally touching, be subtle, be overtly impacting, be smart, be diverse, be sensitive and...whahableblee. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 11:49
I think it depends on the artist (dosent most of what you hear  )
To some they just pick some words fitting in the mouth making the best vocal possible, to other the story they try to come across with, is essential. In any case my judgement would be based on the overall picture i get.
And i like silly words like genesis or mars volta a lot more than those preaching a clear message. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 11:56
I understand Slarti's point but I think it's more to do with the whole "a picture says a thousand words" concept, only with sound! Music without words certainly has this quality..... but I don't think it's a matter of complexity...... more of beauty. For example, people have captured the great sense of terror and sadness of the holocaust with wordless music..... probably on a level that words themselves wouldn't be artistic enough to convey........ but if someone had the challenge of actually documenting the events of the holocaust through song (unlikely I know) then this would clearly only be achievable with lyrics. How could you tell someone all the details without using words? Perhaps what I'm saying is that sometimes lyrics are the best way to get a message across, and that in these instances, it is usually because the artist wants to say something complex...... about an event or a person maybe, rather than a mere mood or an emotion. But lets take it a step further: If you're Jon Anderson and you have lost your voice...... how could you express "Craving penetrations offer links with the self instructor's sharp and tender love, as we look to the air, a picture of distance..." with a guitar?! (I guess it makes so little sense that it wouldn't make much difference...... but you get my point). ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: izquemia
Date Posted: May 18 2011 at 14:08
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Depends of the group, for example: King Crimson We have two albums "Islands" and "Discipline", both are great albums with an excelente music, but the difference is the lyrics aspect. The first one contain a great lyrics and the second one not. also there are a kind of musica that don´t need lyrics ( GYBE, Explosions in the sky, etc), but a combination of great music plus great lyrics provide us a magnificent song, the example is Time by Pink Floyd ------------- blessings are not just for the ones who kneel... luckily |
Posted By: Hober Mallow
Date Posted: August 16 2011 at 20:23
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The music is the more important. You could sing silly or non-sensical lyrics, but sing them Beautifully (Yes) ------------- “When Fortuna spins you downward, go out to a movie and get more out of life.” John Kennedy Toole |
Posted By: mrbean667
Date Posted: August 16 2011 at 21:38
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Music by far. I don't even hear the lyrics half the time, only the vocal melody. When I care to read the lyrics I usually find them equally important as the music though.
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Posted By: Platocrates
Date Posted: August 16 2011 at 21:53
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Given that lyrics and the voice are two different things, I feel that both can play a significant role, though they aren't necessarily needed. Albums like Mastodon's "Crack the Skye," or even The Ocean's "Heliocentric" and "Anthropocentric," explore some fascinating concepts lyrically, and I feel that those sort of lyrics definitely add to the song. As for vocals, something like "Heart Attack In a Lay By" by Porcupine Tree, towards the end when Steven has the two voices interlaced singing two different parts, absolutely beautiful. Of course, there are some pretty over-the-top silly lyrics out there, but if they were changed to some awesome lyrics that explore an interesting concept, would that make the song better? Personally, I'd say it definitely enhances and plays a role in the song. |
Posted By: mrbean667
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 00:20
+100000000 -------------
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Posted By: Oliverum
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 02:36
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In my opinion, a song becomes truly powerful when the meaning of its lyrics is reflected in the music in some way (or vice versa). And I am not simply talking about sadness/minor key and happiness/major key relationship here. It seems to be especially true for concept albums where the band tells a story (lyrics) and paints a world to contribute to it (music). Listen to PT's Voyage 34 and you'll see how this combination almost makes you feel what the main character is going through. So lyrics are very important, and if they are silly or without any deeper meaning to it, it can ruin the song for me.
------------- All the best freaks are here, please stop staring at me. Marillion - Freaks (1988). |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 03:48
| Lyrics CAN improve my appreciation of a song but not take away from it (as in, poor lyrics). And in both cases, the music must first be to my liking, lyrics only enhances this a little bit more. If I don't like a piece so much without the lyrics, their being very good won't change my opinion of it significantly. There are many Bob Dylan songs whose lyrics I like but hardly ever listen to the songs because it's not the kind of music I like. |
Posted By: NickHall
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 03:50
| I agree with all that, though a song can be very simple lyrically and still have sincerity and meaning |
Posted By: jav1919
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 22:52
these post pretty much sums what I think... To me the most important part is the music, but if the lyrics are great then it's even better.
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: August 17 2011 at 23:56
| For me it's a mood swing. I won't listen to King Crimson for about 3 years and suddenly something sparks it off....like seeing a period film or something of that nature. Then I find myself pulling out the Crimso collection and just having a solid connection with their music for about 2 months straight. I need to have some outside force to give me the inspiration to once again enjoy those lyrical concepts from Pete Sinfield. I bounce around too much. I will spend a entire week listening to John Coltrane and the following week it might be Ange. Sometimes I listen to French bands for example....because I do not understand the language and that is refreshing. I become painfully annoyed hearing the pronounced words of English that tell a fantasy story. Popol Vuh are like medicine for weary and sour characters like me. They are a band that help me to escape the craft. I struggle with lyrics, but I can't live without them. It depends on your mind set. |
Posted By: Rando
Date Posted: August 19 2011 at 17:59
 ------------- - Music is Life, that's why our hearts have beats - |
Posted By: wjohnd
Date Posted: August 19 2011 at 18:34
I wish that was true for me. Really bad lyrics can put me off a song - at least half of Dream Theater's output falls down this hole. A really good 9or really interesting) singer can make bad lyrics sound good enough that I don't carre - but thats rare indeed. It's all down to personal taste of course.
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Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: August 19 2011 at 18:55
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some bands, even prog bands rely on their lyrics above all else (Decemberists) and I don't mind that, I love folk punk and pop (lyrical genres) as well as classical, prog and jazz (generally less lyrical genres)
to say that one is more important than the other is silly, as long as one is not so awfull it outways the other the music will be enjoyed by me! ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 19 2011 at 22:35
Well, I don't even need to get to the lyrics with regard to that example, the singing will do the job ( I hope you get my point).  Anyway, some of my favourite music from my formative years has terrible lyrics so I have subconsciously got into a frame of mind where I only start to care about the lyrics if either a)I am specifically told that the lyrics are great like Kinks's British Empire album or b)I hear something striking in the words that makes me want to appreciate it more deeply, like the lyrics of Script for a Jester's Tear. That is, I practically don't notice the words often times, as long as the sound of the words is phonetically acceptable, I am ok. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: August 19 2011 at 22:40
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It's quite simple: banal lyrics can and often do sink songs; however, clever and intelligent lyrics never hurt a song . On the contrary, they only improve it. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: 40footwolf
Date Posted: August 20 2011 at 00:10
It seems like after the '70s a lot of prog bands started focusing on the instrumentation and discarding lyricism entirely, which I would say is to their detriment. The best can do both.
------------- Heaven's made a cesspool of us all. |
Posted By: wjohnd
Date Posted: August 20 2011 at 03:01
i get your drift :-) and i agree that the quality of the singing is key for my enjoyment of a song. they don't have to be technically brilliant, but they do have to hit the notes. Even more important is that their phrasing and delivery fit with the tone of the song. that`s where DT fall down sometimes . |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 20 2011 at 03:10
Actually, this applies not only to the singing but lots of aspects of instrumentation in modern metal music. The steady intensity gets so overpowering there's not enough ornamentation sometimes. I noticed the other day that one thing a lot of singers in the 60s and 70s did which people seem to neglect to sometimes of late is adjust their emphasis subtly with the beat. As one fill hit harder, the singer too would stress the syllable harder at that point and then go softer on the one that was quieter. Admittedly, this is hard if the drumming itself doesn't have those subtleties to the same degree. Anyway, the point being that you do need to be a really good singer to do justice to the lyrics.
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Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: December 26 2011 at 18:49
| I think sometimes we separate music from lyrics too much. It's important to remember that lyrics aren't something separate from the music, but an integral part of the music itself. Sure, you could argue that lyrics are different because poetry can be an art form by itself, but I like to think of lyrics almost like an instrument in the song; just like you can have a solo guitar or piano piece, you can also have "solo lyrics," which constitutes poetry. If you think of it that way, it makes sense that you can still write a good song with mediocre lyrics, because lyrics aren't a separate influence on the song but an integral part of the music. So a listener can overlook poor lyrics just as he might overlook one element of the music he doesn't like; for example, someone who dislikes growls overlooking them in order to appreciate the music behind them. And just as a great guitar line can elevate a lukewarm song and make it great, excellent lyrics can add a whole lot to an otherwise not-so-special piece of music. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 26 2011 at 19:47
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Music
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: December 26 2011 at 20:02
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Since the vast majority of the prog I listen to has lyrics in a language I don't understand, the lyrics mean almost nothing to me. It's all about the music. Now the *singing* is a big part of the music, and the vocals can be a wonderful and integral part of the sound. The Italian vocals for me are just another instrument in the mix, for better or worse. But the lyrics themselves? Really don't care much. If the lyrics are in my language, sure it's nice if they happen to be good but it doesn't much matter. If I want great reading I'll open a book, not a cd booklet. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Ytse_Jam
Date Posted: December 27 2011 at 13:54
| I usually consider the music first |
Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: January 01 2012 at 18:42
Anything by Gabriel-era Genesis is amazing, but I know what you mean about listening to something again after a long lay-away. Maybe that is why prog will ultimately have a much staying power as classical and jazz. Most pop music and mainstream rock will go the way of the dinosaurs very soon...
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 02 2012 at 18:45
| Of course, first and most important comes the music. Then the lyrics. However, in the end, lyrics can be an important factor on my apreciation. First, if I don't like the song, then I won't care much about the lyrics... sometimes I may wish the music were better so that I could apreciate the song with the cool lyrics better (like Jugband Blues, from Barret's Pink Floyd). If the lyrics are absurd, "funny", or just plain bad, but the music is very good, then it may bother me a bit when I listen to the song, but in the end if the song is very good, then it's like, well, too bad (like some Genesis lyrics which for me are "absurd" or try to be "funny" - as "All in a Mouses Night", or even some of "The Lamb"-, or Dream Theater's lyrics on "Nightmare to Remember" or "Count of Tuscany" which are just bad)... However, if the lyrics are about things I consider morally wrong (and I get the impression that the lyrics support such a wrong morality), then I totally may choose not to listen to such songs, even if I like the music very much. If the music is very good, and so are the lyrics, then that is just a plus for my enjoying the music. |
Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: January 03 2012 at 06:55
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While I agree that the lyrics sometimes can make a song worse, or even destroy it completely, I absolutely disagree when it comes to The Lamb. Gabriel has deliberately written it into a specific tradition called dream visions. Gabriel has mentioned The Pilgrim’s Progress as an inspiration (personally I find The Lamb much more interesting than Bunyan’s overly religious and moralistic book). Nevertheless, I suspect that he tries to hide the fact that Dante’s Divina Commedia was just as important to him. If you try to analyse (and not only interpret) The Lamb, you’ll find a highly original narrative structure. The sleeve story has one narrator, and the songs have another. The first one is very subjective while the second one tries to be "objective". In addition you have Rael telling the story himself, and a few lines sung by other characters. Rael is a subterranian or "chthonic" character: When we first meet him, he emerges from the subway, and he’s pretty soon transported to another subterranean realm (you might call it a kind of hell). In that respect he’s related to Odysseus, Aeneas and Dante. In a way he’s even related to Alice. There are several dichotomies at play in the text, the most obvious being in/out, self/other and male/female. Each of them is deconstructed during the "opera", ending with Rael and John turning out to be identical. This makes The Lamb a truly postmodern (and even quite derridadaistic) story. I’m sorry if I bore you – I know I have written something similar to this in another thread before – but my point is that Gabriel’s text doesn’t trivialize the art at all. It’s an integrated part of The Lamb, and I’m pretty sure the story will continue to interest and intrigue people for generations. ------------- He say nothing is quite what it seems; I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: January 03 2012 at 07:10
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Music all the way. I've said many times lyrics just don't matter to me and in fact can detract from my enjoyment. Good lyrics are of course good and can enhance it (or at least be personal for you) but rarely do I feel that. Music and vocals are what counts...what's actually being said I just naturally tune out! |
Posted By: Gully Foyle
Date Posted: January 03 2012 at 07:25
i have to disagree with this. the lyrics on discipline perfectly suit the style and tone of the music, while they may not make for someones favorite poetry, they are an ideal fit to the album, at least i think so.
in general i prefer instrumental music i find. sometimes just because as a player i find it 'purer', but sadly often because the content of lyrics is embarassingly awful (im looking at you Mr. Plant), even if executed well.
but i do like foreign lyrics, because their embarassing content is masked.
in 'The Great Gig In The Sky' the lyrics are as perfect as i've ever come across.
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: January 03 2012 at 19:09
Indeed, I haven't paid much attention to the whole story told on the album, and I completley understand most people here really like (or love) the concept behind "The Lamb"... as a matter of fact, I've been wanting to do a listening of the album reading the lyrics at the same time, and taking a good look at the narration on the sleeve... however, I have not given myself the time to do so. However, on the songs lyrics by themselves, some parts that I can get, things like "snake-like bodies with female faces", and "a strange crowd with squeaky feet", kind of bother me, and don't give me impressions that I like; as well as with other songs like "Musical Box" (the idea of the dead boy's ghost, who gets freed from the musical box and grows old in an instant, or the Giant Hogweeds menacing... well, whatever they are menacing, and some other songs... I believe Gabriel was just trying to be humorous, but the immages that come to my mind from many of his lyrics just aren't enjoyable to me. Needless to say, I still like (or not like) the songs regardless of their lyrics, anyway. |
Posted By: Big Ears
Date Posted: January 17 2012 at 13:19
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I tend to listen to the music first and foremost. I know this because I can never remember the words to songs. I only hear the words if they are very good (most things by Pete Sinfield) or extremely bad (I'm Running by Yes). Occasionally, I listen to both if they are inextricably bound together, as with The Beatles. |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: January 17 2012 at 14:40
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Music |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 17 2012 at 14:41
Well I guess it's a matter of taste, I find them wonderful. Songs like The Musical Box, Hogweed, Get'em Out by Friday, Can Utility or the whole The Lamb are filled with intriguing beauty even if the subject itself is sometimes not plainly beautiful. I don't mind some Slippermen with swollen balls lurking out there
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Posted By: Ludjak
Date Posted: January 18 2012 at 06:31
| For me, the lyrics are good as long as they compliment the music, or don't distract from it. I would argue that both the lyrics to a mainstream pop song and to an elaborate concept album have equal artistic value, as long as they fit the music they are set to. Whenever there is an unbalance between the music and lyrics, I consider the effort poor (examples are abundant, from Wagner's operas to Pink Floyd albums). |
Posted By: lostprin36
Date Posted: January 21 2012 at 04:49
| Good lyrics are always liked by everyone. If there is a good music with well lyrics then it get hit. Actually good music & lyrics can change our mind it just refresh us. |
Posted By: Redug
Date Posted: January 22 2012 at 17:33
| The music is the most important aspect to me, the greatest poetry in the world can't make a bad song good. |
Posted By: geneyesontle
Date Posted: January 25 2012 at 17:04
| I think music comes first, lyrics comes second |
Posted By: Quirky Turkey
Date Posted: January 29 2012 at 07:29
| Music > lyrics |
Posted By: The_Jester
Date Posted: January 29 2012 at 10:22
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I think music is really important. It is sure that completely stupid lyrics make music a bit less interesting but I'd listen to a band even if their lyrics make no sense. ------------- La victoire est éphémère mais la gloire est éternelle! - Napoléon Bonaparte |
Posted By: AdamC3046
Date Posted: January 30 2012 at 17:48
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On a personal basis, I don't really care about lyrics. The sound (music) definitely comes first. ------------- Music is about music. Not mass-produced sounds. Prog is the answer. The answer to everything musical. Prog uses instruments, ensembles and decent materials. Prog is the answer. adamcanfield.tumblr.com |
Posted By: awaken77
Date Posted: February 07 2012 at 07:08
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Don't care about lyrics I prefer instrumental music vs lyrics-driven music , or at least when instrumental parts are dominated over vocals |
Posted By: Trick of the lamb
Date Posted: February 07 2012 at 11:59
| When I hear a song for the first time, I usually memorize music more than the lyrics, and that greatly influences my opinion of the song. But ultimately, I think that both matter a lot in different ways. |
Posted By: bensommer
Date Posted: February 07 2012 at 20:15
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An example I always use is Foo Fighters - a great band whose music I love, but who's lyrics are the most wretched douche-chill-inducing tripe ever. Proves that for rock...who gives a sh*t about the lyrics. Most times you can't even understand 'em. Same for prog. ------------- http://bensommermusic.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: February 07 2012 at 20:23
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I can hardly ever remember lyrics to something unless I put in a very concerted effort to paying attention to them/have them available to read. Music, on the other hand...I hear a song once and I can remember various instruments' parts for a good while. I pay a LOT more attention to the music than the vocals.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: RalphWaldo
Date Posted: February 07 2012 at 21:25
Couldn't agree more, but.... horrible lyrics can ruin a good song (i.e., Anathema) ------------- A record is a concert without halls and a museum whose curator is the owner - Glen Gould |
Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: February 07 2012 at 23:59
What Anathema song(s) do you refer to here? I have only WHBWH, but I think their lyrics on that are absolutely wonderful. ------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth. |
Posted By: zazumusic
Date Posted: February 08 2012 at 06:02
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Lamb is unreal!!!
------------- http://www.zazumusic.com/" rel="nofollow - book a band |
Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: February 08 2012 at 09:00
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Only a couple times in my life have I considered the lyrics as important as the music - with Leonard Cohen, Nick Cave, Bob Dylan, and possibly a few Lennon tunes.
Last Year's Man? Those words are ones I'd read independantly of the song. 'The skylight is like skin for a drum I'll never mend, and all the rain falls down amen, on the works of last year's man'.
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Posted By: LirazelsOdyssey
Date Posted: February 08 2012 at 11:02
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I continually find with prog music that when I acquire a new album I give it a cursory listen, paying attention mostly to the music/instrumentation. At that point, I may like it, but I never LOVE it until I sit down with headphones and dive into the lyrics. At that point, it goes from "like" to love, to at times tears or transported to another galaxy. When I find lyrics like that it is a very spiritual experience and I find myself talking to God and him talking back. The collection of albums which have recently rocked me this way are Glass Hammer's "Inconsolable Secret", Unitopia's "The Garden", Ayreon's "The Human Equation", and Genesis' "Trespass". There are probably more but these are off the top of my head. The most artful thing about these kinds of moving works is that the instrumentation tells the story as much as the lyrics do. That just amazes me. One should not have to choose what is better: music or lyics. With masterful music there should be a marriage of the two. If the artist doesn't accomplish this, it is substandard to me. Lirazel ------------- Through forest dreary... Down paths of dread... Through vales of sorrow... By dusk and dawning...By noon and night...He searches for me... Ah Lirazel My Love, he calls Ah Lirazel Oh return to me |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 08 2012 at 22:29
That would render a good majority of CLASSICS - let alone lesser known second tier acts - substandard. I agree that that would be the ideal situation but it rarely works out. I'd suggest that people are more forgiving or lenient in their judgment of the musical prowess of artists who write good lyrics. e.g. Ray Davies. I wouldn't say the music on Arthur (Decline and Fall of the British Empire) is all that amazing but the lyrics make it easier to overlook that aspect. On the other hand, a band like Scorpions will write a beguiling ballad like In Your Park and clobber it with terrible lyrics. That people find that harder to overlook may have everything to do with that we can relate to words more quickly and flaws in the lyrics just look more glaring. But an artist may be very good at writing music and performing it and not so much at expressing his feelings in words because he's a musician and not a literary guy. |
Posted By: LirazelsOdyssey
Date Posted: February 09 2012 at 13:27
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< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0"> Oh definitely true. Poor choice of a word... substandard... I guess may really mean "disappoints" me. You are too right. For me the lyrics can be awesome but if the instrumentation is dry or boring it doesn't hold my interest. This has been my personal complaint about people like Bob Dillon and Neil Simon. Well that and their vocal style I tend to be distracted by. But they are masterful lyricists. I tend to like covers of their stuff better than their original stuff. Oh and BTW... (I'm obviously going to have to add this to everywhere I've posted). I have a brain disability which causes me to have trouble in a lot of ways but where its relevant to this forum, I have trouble finding the right word to express what I mean, and often stick one in there that isn't quite right. It always looks fine at the time but then the reaction I get makes me back up and reconsider. I ask that people be patient with me and ask me to clarify or ask if I really meant such and such. Also... I keep editing out a bunch of gobbeldy gook that gets stuck into my post. I've done it twice now and don't understand why it keeps showing up there. If it happens again, I'm going to leave it and let a techie respond. Thanks. Lirazel
------------- Through forest dreary... Down paths of dread... Through vales of sorrow... By dusk and dawning...By noon and night...He searches for me... Ah Lirazel My Love, he calls Ah Lirazel Oh return to me |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: February 09 2012 at 13:30
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Bob Dillon? I get that is meant to be Dylan but Neil Simon is a play writer. Unless you mean Paul Simon. I this an example of your brain thing? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: LirazelsOdyssey
Date Posted: February 09 2012 at 13:42
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Yes, it is an example of my "Brain Thing". And boy you sure do really emulate Sauron don't you?< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0"> ------------- Through forest dreary... Down paths of dread... Through vales of sorrow... By dusk and dawning...By noon and night...He searches for me... Ah Lirazel My Love, he calls Ah Lirazel Oh return to me |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: February 09 2012 at 13:43
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Cool ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Zombywoof
Date Posted: February 09 2012 at 15:42
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I'm not a big fan of a lot of the music on "The Lamb", but I love the lyrics.
------------- Continue the prog discussion here: http://zombyprog.proboards.com/index.cgi ... |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 10 2012 at 03:47
How's your perennial brain thing Snowie? (notwithstanding the non sequiter) That's a disgraceful post  so I'd like you to apologise - please do it NOW------------- 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: February 10 2012 at 03:48
What would I be apologising for?
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: igySK
Date Posted: February 14 2012 at 10:34
| As far as I'm concerned, the music always comes first and even if the lyrics are sh*t but music is great I don't mind. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: February 14 2012 at 12:01
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I'm usually more concerned about the actual vocal quality and delivery of lyrics than I am of the lyrics themselves. A singer could be singing some of the best poetry ever, the kind that make you think; but he or she irritates me, I move on.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: Earendil
Date Posted: February 14 2012 at 17:23
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The Lamb's lyrics might seem silly taken alone, but they're actually an elaborate allegory for sex/birth. http://www.genesismuseum.com/thebirthofthelamb.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.genesismuseum.com/thebirthofthelamb.htm
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Posted By: Garden of Dreams
Date Posted: February 14 2012 at 18:08
That was an incredibly interesting read. I have read other theories that connect The Carpet Crawlers to birth but never the whole album. I love how the lyrics can be interpreted in so many different ways. Many of the songs carry their own individual meaning that is separate to the story. It gives the lyrics incredible depth. Amazing lyrics and amazing music can really elevate an album. Just look at Pain of Salvation's The Perfect Element, Remedy Lane and BE. For me, these albums are spectacular for how the lyrics relate to music. The Perfect Element is very dark musically which perfectly relates to the angry lyrics. Remedy is more somber in terms of music which adds to the heartbreaking lyrics. BE is more varied in music to fit the story of the album with the folky beginning and end to show the beginning of a world. Nihil Morari is very chaotic to correlate with the chaotic deterioration of the world. I wont go into a song by song breakdown but to me, these albums are the best example ow how lyrics and music can create an amazing work of art. The music is more important for me but lyrics can add another dimension of expression that music alone cannot express. ------------- Just give it all an hour by the concrete lake. |
Posted By: ferush
Date Posted: March 24 2012 at 20:55
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Music is the centre and the rules of every sound. |
Posted By: bensommer
Date Posted: March 24 2012 at 21:24
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I remember hearing an acoustic artist - keller williams? - doing a radio interview. He played a cover of ABBA's Dancing Queen to prove a point. He said something so accurate: its about the rhythm, harmony & melody. ABBA never write a non-wretched lyric - yet the songs are still great (for that sort of thing). Foo Fighters are my constant example on this - the lyrics are so horrible they hurt to read. But the songs rock - who cares. And Cocteau Twins make up their own gibberish language to sing. In my own music, I like the challenge of delivering a one-two punch great song & moving lyric. But I appreciate great music even if the lyrics are sh*te ------------- http://bensommermusic.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: ferush
Date Posted: March 24 2012 at 21:32
Absolutely in agreement.
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Posted By: rupert
Date Posted: March 24 2012 at 23:01
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In general, I tend to agree that it's about the music ( melody / harmony / rhythm ) in the first place, because if the music is boring - why should I listen ? I can read books if it's mainly for the words. But, being a songwriter myself for more than 30 years now, I have found out that depth and emotion of a good melody can hugely be improved by good lyrics - up to the point that, seen as a long-term-affair, the best songs remaining are those that are strong songs in both ways. Since I have learned this I hardly sit down to write a song anymore without really having something to say , and songs from the past, ones for which I didn't really care about the lyrics when I wrote them, do not really belong to my favourites anymore. It's getting increasingly difficult for me to get ready to perform them still - why should I do it ? Only because I know that some of them ( "A Summerlove", "Genevieve" ) are popular amongst my listeners ? Their popularity didn't make them "Hits" for me to this day anyway. Sometimes I rather tend to perform a song because the lyrics are just right and I want them to be heard - and, in spite of my dissatisfaction with the music ( especially when it's a "lyrics-first-one" on which I have put the music afterwards - "The River runs bright", "The Price of Love" ), that's why those songs are feeling right for me, still... I have experienced that, in the end, my listeners appear to like them just as much, especially those listeners who get ( understand ) the lyrics ! The point is: It's really hard to make a rule here. It depends on how you feel - and if the singer can perform a rather stupid lyric with conviction and feel it may be just okay. The older I get, though, the more obvious is that I tend to turn away because of stupid lyrics far more than because of trivial music. The main reason why I don't like Mr. Dieter Bohlen's stuff - well, the music is trivia but I wouldn't mind if only he had something to say. So, in the end, although the music is still more important to me ( especially with other artists ), the lyrics need to have a meaning, still. I used to say: "It's alright if somebody's singing stuff such as I love you or Don't leave me... but either it has to come from the heart or it has to transport kind of a perfect illusion so it's feeling that way for me." I still think that I was right. In order to increase the chance of achieving a perfect illusion... a great melody can surely help - for who really knows if the singer is an actor only or really bleeding his heart out ? I can't say. But with myself... it's got to come from the inside, you know, and if the song is older I need to make a connection to what I thought and how I felt. I want my art to stay a product of genuine emotion and thoughts. And I don't want to sing stupid lyrics ( or anything I feel uncomfortable about ). This means: If I don't have anything "new" to say I usually wait for the words that want to come out until I'm actually writing another song. I have overcome the fear that there won't be any more since I have learned that my creativity needs those phases of "Input" in order to reach the phases of "Output" again. I feel strongly satisfied with most of the results ever since. I think I've found my way. But - every musician and songwriter has to find a way for themselves. ------------- ...I'm a musician/singer/songwriter, visit me on www.reverbnation.com/rupertlenz and there you can choose from 125 recordings you can listen to ( for free ) if you're not limited to prog-rock ! |
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: March 24 2012 at 23:16
| There are some bands with lyrics so impeccably amazing that they can make up almost the entire greatness of a song. Bright Eyes (not remotely prog, but I still feel this is relevant) has songs like this. If they had just good lyrics, I probably wouldn't be near as much of a fan. But they have my favourite lyrics out there (alongside VdGG in that respect actually). |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: March 25 2012 at 19:36
| Lyrics are as important as rest of music, and Lamb has good lyrics. The sidelined poor youth is illustrated vividly in Back In NYC, for instance, and the story is quite evocative overall. |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: March 31 2012 at 02:54
Really not? But the vocalist is singing the top line melody. It's not, um, non-music. It's there. Singing is very much a musical instrument. One has to be in key (unless you are Lou Reed) otherwise it's awful (see You Tube for worst bands of all time)... there's one a a Journey cover that really underlines just how significant a good vocalist is... and one of Comfortably Numb that makes great singers (Pavarottis of prog) out of DG and Rog. To me Lamb's lyrics are surreal but some what funny at times. (The idea of the rtaher dull named brother John along with the more exotically - if slightly non original Townshend go there first did he not? - Rael - and losing manhoods that have been bitten off by some bird (feathered variety) and chasing said bird is a little too funny for me to consider seriously. Not that I intend to dimiish it - just thought PG meant a bit of fun in a surreal way. But lyrics are... good when fine but for me it's the music that really matters (sorry lyricists). Snowgoose, Eruption and anything by UZ for examples... |