This might be a good subject for a prog poll. I would choose for Symphonic Prog anyway. On 5ème Saison, the shorter tracks are folk indeed, but the longer tracks include too much mellotron for folk, so these would be symphonic on a folk base. I don't know much about L'Heptade, but the mp3 sample on PA points in the direction of Symhonic Prog again.

Flip a coin.......... A very, very difficult choice as I have written in the reviews of all their albums. But that problem is now mine (@#~^&$% !!!!!!!!!), being a member of that team. 

I need to take that debate in the Symph team. 

cannon wrote: How about placing them in both sub-genres?

Against the rules, I am afraid. The reason is that half of the bands here is difficult to put in one genre. Hence the term progressive rock. Sometimes I wish this was The Meerkat Archives where problems like that was as unusual as flying cows.

harmonium.ro wrote: It's because the teams of PA specialists have categorized the band as such (like almost all of the other bands on PA).

1. The Symphonic Team has categorized less than 40% of the bands, most of them were added before Prog Archives was open to the public.
2. We have made not one, but three clean ups, we started wit 619 bands and ended the first clean up with 400 bands, we sent some to Folk (Sean and I had a  fluent communication over this issues and trusted in the opinions of each other), Neo Prog (We moved more bands when the Neo and Symphonic teams were one), Heavy Prog (Great communication also), Eclectic (We sent many bands there), and even some ridiculous additions that we had to move to Prog Metal, Avann't Garde (You have to be lost to place a Metal or Avant band in Symphonic), Prog Related, and even retired a couple bands that never existed.
3. No matter how many cleanings we have, the problems will ever exist because the limits between genres are sometimes dark 

Now, the case of Harmonium was discussed on  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33788&KW=&PID=2358669#2358669" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33788&KW=&PID=2358669#2358669

And my reply was:

Ivan_Melgar_M on February 5, 2007 wrote: Originally posted by OGTL I am just confused as to why Harmonium is included in the Symphonic section of the site. The first two are almost absolutely Folk, and En Tournee and Heptade are more symphonic yes, but the band's roots are in folk, and i think that it belongs in the Folk genre.. if anything Jethro Tull should be in Symphonic and switch places with Harmonium.. like 4 of their albums are folk.   Hi OGTL Welcome to the forum.   Being that you are a new member I will tell you that  we have a Symphonic team that I'm honoured to lead, we made a house cleaning because almost 33% of the bands assigned to Symphonic originaly were not Symphonic at all, and 147 have been moved to other sub-genres.   Since none of the actual members of the Symphonic Team except me,  was member of it when we had the Seventh Session (The session in which the bands that started with the letter H were checked):  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24377&KW=Symphonic" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24377&KW=Symphonic    I will have to explain his particular case.   The guidelines of Prog Archives clearly state that for the inclusion of a band in a determined sub-genre and despite we mention all their discography,  we must only  base the location of the band in  the 100% Prog albums, the others don't count, are only mention for a coherence purpose.   That's the reason why Genesis is in Symphonic and not Prog Related despite they released at least 5 POP albums (FGTTR, ABACAB, We Can't Dance, Shapes and Invisible Touch, CAS is a hybrid), we only considered the releases from Trespass to Wind & Wuthering or maybe even ATTW3 and Duke and we mention the later plus FGTTR but this last ones are ignored for the location of the band.   So being all Genesis Prog albums in the Symphonic sub-genre, then the band went to Symphonic, the same with Yes with Big Generator plus 90125 and many more bands.   Harmonium is a very particular case: Harmonium (1974): Is not a Prog album it's a Folkloric album almost exclusively, we couldn't find significant Prog elements, so according to the guidelines of Prog Archives, we must mention it in he discography but must not consider it for the sub-genre in which the band is going to be included. Si On Avait Besoin D'une 5ième Saison: This one is a 100% Prog album, but combines Folk Prog elements with a clear Symphonic structure and influences from the first King Crimson era and Genesis. At this point, we could go for either of both sub-genres, so we have to wait for the next album. L'Heptade: Despite a few Folk and Jazzy elements, L'Heptade is a 90% Symphonic album, so the balance turned in favour of Symphonic. Harmonium En Tournée: Jazzier than the previous despite Symphonic essentialy, but being a Live album is neither too trascendental for the inclusion of the band in a genre. If you check the history of the band, well, it's closer to Symphonic if we don't count the debut album which must be ignored according to the guidelines received when we started our work with Symphonic. Even if we count it, we have three mainly Prog Symphonic albums and one Folk (Not Prog Folk) album. I't's also important to consider that Harmonium was added to Symphonic by one of the owners of the site Prog Lucky, who is an expert in French Canadian bands being from that country, so his opinion is valuable.   We also crossed our opinions with other reliable Prog sites like:   GEPR: Canadian symphonic band, sounds very early- http://www.gepr.net/ga.html#GENESIS" rel="nofollow - Genesis  influenced, might also elicit comparisons to Ange, and the ethereal feel of Pulsar. French vocals. L'Heptade is a good place to start, if you can find it.   GEPR clearly describes them as Symphonic and Genesis influenced.   Proggnosis: COUNTRY GENRE-subgenre-style ARTIST   (#Listed)   (click to view Artist page) Canada Prog - Symphonic -Other/General http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33788&KW=Harmonium" rel="nofollow - http://www.progressiveears.com/asp/artistdir.asp?country=Canada" rel="nofollow">    Harmonium  http://www.progressiveears.com/asp/artistdir.asp?genre=1" rel="nofollow">   http://www.progressiveears.com/asp/artistdir.asp?genre=8192" rel="nofollow">   http://www.progressiveears.com/asp/artistdir.asp?genre=16384" rel="nofollow">   A Quebec-based group, from the 70''s  http://www.progressiveears.com/forums/members/profile.asp?peopleid=642" rel="nofollow - Iván  As a fact we discussed it with the team and with Sean, and we agreed this was a special casein which the limits were blurry, so both teams agreed to discuss it and we agreed it was better in Symphonic. Still, if Scott and Torodd agree that is better to move them I'll agree as usual, but IMO Haronium is more Symphonic than Folk. Iván -------------              Posted By: Catcher10 Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 12:51 Junges wrote: I think they have both elements very strong. I don't really care what classification it is and don't know why is it so important to classify.   Exactly!!! Lets put them under Extreme/Tech-Jazz Fusion. ------------- Posted By: TODDLER Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 14:16 It's because of the long extensive progressive sections of certain pieces that contain mellotron and dark sounding chord changes along with that acoustic guitar so often placed into folk. There are long sections that remind me of King Crimson...."In the Wake of Poseidon period. Often coming across like an epic and not at all like Picture of a City or Cat Food. More of the very early romantic sounding Crimson if anything. Sometimes like Strawbs. You have to relax and pay attention to hear it. It is present in their music , but since they have an originality of their own...it blends in so nicely that it may go un-noticed. Harmonium had a darker approach in what is catagorized as Symphonic....and sometimes darker than King Crimson.   They seemed to be more schooled as players than maybe a band like Pulsar, however both bands displayed this great originality in their dark keyboard clusters. The first effort from Harmonium is mostly folk oriented , however the 2nd and 3rd releases explore these distant prog chord variations ....so it is a difficult task to make a perfect analogy and pigeon-hole them into a term. I wouldn't want the job of doing that. I do know what I hear is correct. Not all or even most prog folk bands cross into that Symphonic realm like Harmonium do. And then one analogy just bounces back and forth to the other. So I feel sorry for the person who must tagged them. Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 15:26 TODDLER wrote: . Not all or even most prog folk bands cross into that Symphonic realm like Harmonium do. And then one analogy just bounces back and forth to the other. So I feel sorry for the person who must tagged them. Not so rare TODDLER, but is more common for Symphonic bands to add Folk elements of their countries, for example: Renaissance Aphrodite's Child  Solaris (Hungary) Alameda Collegium Musicum Bacamarte (LÑsten "Sete Cidades") Karda Estra Yesterdeys (Romania) Accent (Romania) After Crying (Hungary) Tabula Saragdina. Atila Coto en Pel Cai CAL Granada Estructura (Venezuela) Govea Caja de Pandora Tocatta And I could go for pages. The only casein Folk that comes to my mind is THE STRAWBS. We have to deal with every single band and see what's more relevant,, the Prog or Symphonic component. Iván  -------------              Posted By: TODDLER Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 18:46 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: TODDLER wrote: . Not all or even most prog folk bands cross into that Symphonic realm like Harmonium do. And then one analogy just bounces back and forth to the other. So I feel sorry for the person who must tagged them. Not so rare TODDLER, but is more common for Symphonic bands to add Folk elements of their countries, for example: Renaissance Aphrodite's Child  Solaris (Hungary) Alameda Collegium Musicum Bacamarte (LÑsten "Sete Cidades") Karda Estra Yesterdeys (Romania) Accent (Romania) After Crying (Hungary) Tabula Saragdina. Atila Coto en Pel Cai CAL Granada Estructura (Venezuela) Govea Caja de Pandora Tocatta And I could go for pages. The only casein Folk that comes to my mind is THE STRAWBS. We have to deal with every single band and see what's more relevant,, the Prog or Symphonic component. Iván  I have just about everything from Renaissance, Karda Estra, and Solaris. The other bands on the list I don't know their music. Renaissance is folk and classical influenced, but Karda Estra with the classical nylon string guitar? I don't know unless you are pointing out the sections of their music where female vocal harmonies are backed by classical guitar....otherwise I don't hear folk actually as much as I hear the influence of 20th century composers. Solaris maybe European folk influenced to a degree as they are more in the Jethro Tull vain... but Harmonium seem more extreme than these 3 bands. There are times when they sound a hundred percent folk without blending Symphonic into the mix or other times they are quite the opposite. With the other 2 bands.....I feel they blend styles in completeness. With Harmonium it just feels a bit different to me personally and if I were you....I would have the most difficult time in defining a term. I'm sure these other bands on your list are difficult to define just as Harmonium are. Thanks for posting this list. In the area of investigation into 70's( not neo), European progressive prog/folk bands I haven't gambled enough to travel deeper. With France I haven't traveled beyond Ange, Pulsar, Edhels, Mona Lisa, Clearlight, and maybe a few others....because I get into Electronic music and 20th century composers. I feel that my problem with researching further is simply time and money. But thanks for the list ....I will research these bands. Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 19:07 The problem with us, is that we tend to see Folk as a blend of Rock and Celtic/British Pastoral music, but Folk is so much more, there are ethnic expressions around the world with hardly some guitar at all.. Acoustic guitar is not Prog Folk synonymous,  For example, in Voivode Dracula, Karda Estra uses  bouzouki and  rastrophone creating Dark Romanian atmospheres, perfect for the story of Dracula, as a fact they blend Romanian music with their Neo Classical sound.  That's what makes sub-genres so hard to define, we need to see more than just Celtic/pastoral music. Iván -------------              Posted By: harmonium.ro Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 19:31 There is definitely no Hungarian/Romanian folk in Yesterdays, Solaris or Accent, but it's true I haven't heard everything they have. Same for Collegium Musicum, I only have two albums from them. But they're folk free.  Posted By: CCVP Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 20:33 harmonium.ro wrote: There is definitely no Hungarian/Romanian folk in Yesterdays, Solaris or Accent, but it's true I haven't heard everything they have. Same for Collegium Musicum, I only have two albums from them. But they're folk free.  Gotta agree with this. Also this thread contains paradox: harmonium talking about Harmonium. ------------- Posted By: TODDLER Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 21:17 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: The problem with us, is that we tend to see Folk as a blend of Rock and Celtic/British Pastoral music, but Folk is so much more, there are ethnic expressions around the world with hardly some guitar at all.. Acoustic guitar is not Prog Folk synonymous,  For example, in Voivode Dracula, Karda Estra uses  bouzouki and  rastrophone creating Dark Romanian atmospheres, perfect for the story of Dracula, as a fact they blend Romanian music with their Neo Classical sound.  That's what makes sub-genres so hard to define, we need to see more than just Celtic/pastoral music. Iván Okay that is a good point regarding Voivode Dracula. The ethnic expressions I often hear in the music of Popol Vuh. Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M Date Posted: June 14 2011 at 22:26 I still believe that the term Folk is misleading, because  people listen Folk and immediately think in Jethro Tull or STRAWBS, so anybody who finds Los Jaivas is in Folk, will feel disappointed because they have nothing in common.....I believe the term Ethnic Prog is more accurate. Harmonium.Ro wrote: ]There is definitely no Hungarian/Romanian folk in Yesterdays, Solaris or Accent, but it's true I haven't heard everything they have. Same for Collegium Musicum, I only have two albums from them. But they're folk free.  1.- Yesterdays: This Transylvanian band plays a complex blend of several styles: a basically classic symphonic Prog is redefined here with some jazzy, folk and atmospheric touches - all of these played with a youthful energy, inner light and sunny mood.  (Wrote by Betty Leb, based on information provided by YESTERDAYS and sent to me by Szolt Entedi - Keyboardist of Yesterdays).  http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3834" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3834 2.- Solaris: "Although SOLARIS sound rather unique, elements of JETHRO TULL (flute), MANFRED MANN'S EARTH BAND (Minimoog solos with pitchbend) and Jean Michel JARRE (electronic intro in the first part of the titletrack) can be traced. The 2-LP 1990 contains typical SOLARIS songs: dynamic and propulsive with spectacular synth runs, fiery electric gutiar and beautiful flute-play. Remarkable is the spacy keyboard sound in some songs and the obvious classical influences" By Erik Neuteboom in Ptog Archives Te Wikipedia Page about Solaris also mentions: Solaris (band) is a  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock" rel="nofollow - progressive rock  band from  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary" rel="nofollow - Hungary . Established in 1980, the band went through several formations. Their music has a strong  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melodic" rel="nofollow - melodic  content, often laced with  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe" rel="nofollow - Eastern European  themes. Marsbéli Krónikák: Is full of Folk elements, there are even pure Eastern Europe songs like "A Sarga Koe" or highly Folk influenced as "Marsbéli Krónikák II - II and IV -VI"  Nostradamus Book of Prophesies: Is a perfect blend between Symphonic and Easter Europe Folk. Attila Kollar and Robert Erdesz: Two key members of Solaris and two off their main composers are located in Prog Folk If I'm not wrong, Solaris used to be in Prog Folk, but several years ago we moved them by agreement with Sean. 3.- Collegium Musicim: IMO has clear Eastern Europe ethnic influenxce 4.- Accent; Is formefd by two  folk musicians Nicolae SAVA and guitarist/singer Paul PRISADA, they put music to poems of Hungarian great writers  Miron Radu Paraschivescu, and Mircea Dinescu, and you believe they are Folk free? Iván -------------              Posted By: harmonium.ro Date Posted: June 15 2011 at 09:21 Ivan, Yesterdays and Accent mentioned have folk elements, if by folk you mean the 60s/70s popular music played with acoustic guitars. But I thought you meant traditional folk, ie ethnic music. There is no traditional folk on Yesterday's Holdfenykert (I haven't heard the new album though) and on Accent's 70s and 80s recordings (they have a new album out but I don't have it because they don't sell it ). Solaris I haven't heard for a few years now so I should re-listen them. From Collegium Musicum I have Mikrokozmos and Live with Marian Varga, both are 100% Clasically inspired prog, but I don't know their other albums. Print Page | Close Window Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd. - http://www.webwiz.co.uk