Have new prog fans too commercial tastes?
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Topic: Have new prog fans too commercial tastes?
Posted By: undercover_man
Subject: Have new prog fans too commercial tastes?
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 11:30
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Reading many discussions about prog and watching the results of various polls on the topic „album of the year“ leads me to the opinion, that most of new, young prog fans prefers rather easy- listening, highly accessible forms of prog. E.g. have a look at the results of annual polls on DPRP.net, quite representative, because these polls have nearly 1000 participants. Look at the names which occupy the forefront : Porcupine Tree, Transatlantic, Spock’s Beard, Dream Theater, Marillion, Pendragon, IQ, Anathema, Neal Morse, Ayreon I don’t want to say none of albums of these bands deserves to be at the forefront, they all are probably good, sometimes maybe excellent in kind of music they play. But that’s the right question : which kind of music they actually play? Despite many differencies among highly succesful progbands they have one common attribute : catchiness. But unfortunatelly, at the same time music of these bands is often lacking, at least in my ears, some essential qualities of great prog music : challenging, intriguing, artistic, adventurous, highly sophisticated, infused with generous portions of artistic genres - classical music and jazz. The cathiness and accessibility is probably the key attribute to be succesful in new, young prog circles. But despite these preferencies of today’s prog audience, every year I’ve found many graet albums by bands, which want to produce something more then radio-ready melodies with longer instrumental sections (compared to straight rock or metal) and with progressive arrangments. And that’s what I regret most : these bands are living on the fringe of average progfans’ interest. I’m talking about bands like Kayo Dot, Areknames, Gargamel, Magma, Present, Miriodor etc. Probably the only one more challenging and adventurous band gaining success among new, young prog fans is The Mars Volta. I know, here at PA the situation is much brighter, many of PA members prefer even bands like Magma or Univers Zero to the accessible mainstream of prog, but look somewhere else. I don’t want to say I dislike all succesfull progbands. E.g. Porcupine Tree I consider so talented, enough talented to produce really great modern prog, but unfortunatelly they stay to deliver catchy, easy-listening songs with very few departures from the rule. Or Gazpacho – for me the most interesting succesfull progband, I like their latest two albums, but again : I wish they somewhat change their direction to the more challenging music. |
Replies:
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 11:36
I'm just going to stop you right here: you do not understand statistics. That is not representative.
"Stop liking things I don't like."
The same thing was true for the new, young prog circles in the 1970s.
Nobody cares. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
undercover_man wrote:Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 11:42
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Are you honestly suggesting that some people don't like the same music as you? That is utterly absurd -------------  
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Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 11:45
| Ol' Dutilleux is staring at you with disgust. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 11:47
For me younger prog fans are too much into metal.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 11:47
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I'm sorry, but a big reason why 70s prog was even popular was because most of the band's had some catchy melodies. It's just they did new things with that. For every catchy moment the bands you listed have, there are 5 more sophisticated sections or just plain ridiculous moments. Besides most of the bands you listed tread along the symphonic side of prog, if not are full-blown symphonic prog rock. Ever hear of gateway bands? I consider all of those as gateway bands. And believe it or not, they all include some level of jazz and "classical" music. Then again I got into the likes of The Mars Volta and Frank Zappa before I got into Neal Morse or The Flower Kings, so it's different for everyone. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 11:57
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So remind me again what the OP is trying to state? I got lost after the first sentence...I think.
Damn my bad..... -------------   
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:05
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For me younger prog fans are too much into saying stupid things... ------------- 
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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:07
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There is often a disparagement expressed on this site of one of the fundamental characteristics of musi: melody. This topic represents that view, and it is one I can never agree with. A simple, catchy melody will always be more memorable and more popular. Pop artists use them, rock artists use them, jazz artists use them, classical composers use them. What sets prog artists apart from many others is their ability to modify those melodies in the progression of their music. But then again, this also also applies to jazz and classical. I do not agree that catchy equates with easy listening. This is tantamount to saying that we should eat bad tasting food instead of good tasting because good tasting food is too good tasting. This is saying that song writers or composers are better than others because they do not have the capacity to compose a strong melody. Sure, it is a good thing to experiment with melody (and harmony, tonality, rhythm, and pitch), but that can only go so far until we eliminate it altogether. ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:08
Just add "which I think unfortunate" to the end of the first sentence, and I think you'll get the gist ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:11
| EHHHGHH, KIDS THESE DAYS |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:14
 ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:17
But that's what the internet is for!
Catchy, as the term is used, just about always equals pop music. If you find more abstract music as inescapably memorable, that's fine, but that's not what people mean when they say it.
No, it's tantamount to saying that I don't like chicken so I am going to eat steak.
I honestly do not care about any of those things, although it's physically impossibly to eliminate pitch. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: madmike
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:19
Was telling somebody that I was a prog fan the other day, and they said, I kid you not, "oh, you mean like TesseracT and Andromeda?" *facepalm* Yes, because that's what all prog sounds like. (Nothing against those bands, but they're not what immediately comes to mind when I think of "prog". Kids...
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:19
Yeah my bad, let's correct:
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:22
with their newfangled mp3ers and gigabytes and such... |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:24
But I like saying stupid things. :(
At least he didn't say Dream Theater... ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:24
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:30
Agree. Or at the least don't know how to filter what they say. I blame recent advancements in technology; but that's for another thread.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:32
I enjoyed Gran Torino a lot more than I should have, it really wasn't a very good movie.
Back in my day you listened to music on a 78 RPM and we were happy to get up every 3 minutes to change sides. It's good exercise, but now everyone is so lazy! ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:34
At least he didn't say Dream Theater...[/QUOTE] I would much prefer that. At least DT have 'some' respect in the overall prog commmunity  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:34
If someone I knew or thought was a fan of metal told be they were a prog fan, I would assume they were talking about Progressive Metal. Also, this topic is so dumb. Basically just because you are almost COMPLETELY talking out of your arse. The poll of 1000 is no were near representative, and the bands that won are not particularly artistically lacking (well, that's all opinion). Oh yeah, not to mention that this is a POLL - it's not really a good measure of WHAT prog fans listen to, it's just a measure of which albums were liked the most. What I'm saying is, that really, a lot of people who voted in that poll may have liked albums you are more accepting of. There might of just not been enough crossover in the different styles of prog fans for them to come out first. You just come across as a silly elitist snob. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile 
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Posted By: undercover_man
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:39
The same thing was true for the new, young prog circles in the 1970s. Not exactly true, Yes or ELP were more successful than VdGG or Gentle Giant thanks to Roundabout, resp.Lucky Man, but still VdGG and Gentle Giant or Crimson with very little commercial potencial were quite successful.
For sure more succesful than Gargamel or Areknames, in terms of style VdGG of modern era.
Nobody cares. [/QUOTE] You should care a little bit, if you want to hear in next years something else than progmetal + neoprog + crossoverprog.
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:41
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I can't tell at all what is going on in that post above mine. P.S. the avant-prog scene is flourishing as much as ever. |
Posted By: madmike
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:45
The past decade has been very, very good for avant-prog (especially the Japanese scene), jazz fusion, symphonic prog, zeuhl... if you're not picking up on this, you're being willfully blind for the sake of making a point that simply isn't there. If you're simply looking at trying to find the modern successor to VDGG, you need to stop living in the past and accept the modern musical landscape for what it is, for its advantages and its pitfalls. (Heck, even VDGG isn't much of anything post-reunion.)
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:45
And I can't tell what's going on in the post above yours ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:48
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:48
-------------
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Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 12:58
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I think new prog fans should be fairly offended by this thread, if I'm reading the OP right. EDIT: You meant new by young, I am offended. ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 13:03
I'm not offended, look at my avatar. I took it as 'young' as well, not necessarily 'new' If he meant "young" then the OP is ignorant, which is not my problem ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 13:07
Nope, I still don't care. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 13:19
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I certainly don't have too commercial tastes.....in fact the only reason I came in here was because I just had my music referred to as noise (live Henry Cow) and saw this and thought "hey I'm kinda a new prog fan." I've been into it for five years or so but I mean I'm only 19, so compared to some of those here........ ------------- Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 13:25
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Nothing wrong with liking commercial music anyway. Besides the fact that some consider Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, and Pink Floyd commercial (maybe to a degree), I am proud to say I am a fan of James Brown, Steely Dan, Foo Fighters, Eric Clapton, The Beatles, Jay-Z, Eminem, B.I.G., Stevie Wonder, and many more I can't think of right now.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: TheClosing
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 13:29
Interesting. |
Posted By: Rapataz
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 13:43
AND prog metal is one of the more commercial prog subgenres... i would agree to some point, as young prog lover who is more into experimental stuff and krautrock (Can, Magma, King Crimson, early Pink Floyd are my favs) But there is also quite a cult following all those Post Rock bands which doesn't seem so commercial to me ------------- www.myspace.com/rasayanaband |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 13:46
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I'm glad somebody finally acknowledged how commercial metal is. People say that it isn't because of it's "heavy" nature, but really it's poppy still. It usually has an incredibly formula oriented structure, vocals throughout except during the "guitar solo." It is easily my least respected prog for the fact that it's rarely progressive. ------------- Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance. |
Posted By: desistindo
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 13:49
| Yes. They have. But this doesnt matter at all. I dont like "commercial prog" and i seek good taste. Thats what matters. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 13:50
I agree, with some exceptions, those being the big names like Dream Theater, Opeth, Riverside, Liquid Tension Experiment, Planet X, and maybe Symphony X. They are; or at least were progressive. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 14:00
| Dream Theater is extremely commecial. Exceptions are more like Meshuggah, Gorguts, Neurosis, Negura Bunget etc. and yes, I don't care that they are in the "extreme metal" subgenre here they are still metal that is progressive. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 14:05
OP: ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 14:14
Only a few of their songs are, in which case they were trying to get a hit. I would say they're more "accessible" ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 14:16
QUOTE=Henry Plainview]
I'm just going to stop you right here: you do not understand statistics. That is not representative.
"Stop liking things I don't like."
The same thing was true for the new, young prog circles in the 1970s.
Nobody cares. [/QUOTE] I have nothing else to say after this. Well maybe this regarding the original post: Y-A-W-N
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Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 15:32
Obviously you haven't heard Ehnahre. 12-tone death doom metal. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 15:33
hawt |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 15:38
The noise that guy is making... I'm sorry... growls, are horrible 
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 15:56
You can't denigrate anyone's voice if you like Dream Theater.
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 15:58
| In all honesty I agree with Polo, I'd choose that singer over Labrie. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:03
I can agree that the bands you listed might better be described as accessible, but they're still not great examples for defending mainstream metal as not being commercial.
I honestly cannot hear any difference from normal death metal until it randomly decays into pseudo-free improv after 3 minutes. And growls are terrible etc.
Aw stonie, I got that in on the first reply ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:04
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I really like the music, bbut the growling in that is a bit much for me (I can like growling). Anyway, Labrie featuring in True Symphonic Rockestra ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:05
and when did this become a rule? I enjoy hundreds of different singers. Growling is not singing anyway ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:07
Trust me, I am not defending mainstream metal as not being commercial ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Garden of Dreams
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:16
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I haven't found any prog I own "accessible"; In terms of music in general and in terms of prog. Their are aspects of their music that can be accessible but as whole not really accessible. There is nothing wrong with not liking music that is really experimental. I don't really get the Zheul and Avant but its okay that it exists. I prefer emphasis on the melodies in my music. The genre of Metal that is being bashed above is mainly power and heavy metal (anything with core in the genre tag does not count as metal). I agree that it is too formulaic but to say metal is commercial is just ridiculous. Metal is too big of music genre to be coiled down to one word. If you want some metal that is far from commercial try black, death or thrash metal. Most anything in that genre is far from commercial. ------------- Just give it all an hour by the concrete lake. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:24
I shouldn't have typed mainstream. What I'm saying is that those are some of the most successful/accessible/commercial bands in metal, and even if they're still "progressive", they're not a good example that metal is not commercial.
I distinctly remember reading this post before. I am losing my mind. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: avantgrind
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:34
usually the wrong kind of metal, tbh. I haven't encountered any noise or grind fans like myself on here so far. ------------- 
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Posted By: Garden of Dreams
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:41
My bad if the post is sounding repetitive, I haven't read the whole thread. I wasn't specifically referring to your comments and you are correct but the most successful bands in metal don't accurately represent metal. As is the case in most genres, the more experimental music is rarely commercial. ------------- Just give it all an hour by the concrete lake. |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:43
Gotcha. Well, I guess they are more popular/successful whatever. In terms of non-prog metal, I agree that most of it is commercial, as it is more popular than it has been since the 80s; when it was also pretty commercial. It's a sound that is used by a lot of modern prog bands, probably to get attention from listeners. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 18:42
There are some in the Throbbing Gristle thread, I think. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 22:50
All of my sad.  ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 23:00
This idea that "f**ked up-sounding = progressive" has to be the single most pseudo-intellectual line of thinking among "prog" listeners. Also, the "doom death metal" element just limits the "12-tone" element of the music, because if it is going to be called "metal" of any kind, it always has to come back to that "riff-based", repetitive structure... otherwise it would just be "12-tone music played with distorted guitar" etc. Which makes it all the more ironic that such a stylistically limited genre as metal has been broken up into more micro-genres than anything else.
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 08 2011 at 23:16
it's not f**ked up sounding, you're just a mainstreamy |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 09 2011 at 00:46
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Indeed, it's not f**ked up and certainly not in a prog perspective and on the other hand, it was pretty boring. More or less with HP on this one (except that I have no issues with growls at all) : just a freeform section appended to death-doom. As to why these metal guys are so loath to let go of metal's trademark wall of distortion and get more adventurous is an entirely different topic. But, back on topic, I don't find anything particularly 'commercial' about TFK or PT. Let's get some perspective here: 90s was the decade of Celine Dion. You can't benchmark a modern band with what was commercial in the 60s or 70s and say people have too commercial tastes. I'd say people are in general much more forgiving of precious, overemotive vocal tendencies or extremely cheesy arrangements and that again is probably a result of MTV's penetration with such stuff in the 80s and onwards, so we have to look at these things in the context of the respective era and its music and not against an unrealistic benchmark. |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: July 09 2011 at 02:32
The point was, he posted that track as a response to someone who said metal was hardly ever progressive, as though something with such dissonance and non-traditional structure = automatic "progressive" (putting aside the fact that I don't use that term this way). I have no problem with actual 12-tone music, that in itself eliminates the possibility of me having "mainstreamy" taste. That stuff just came off as a gimmicky compromise between death doom and 12-tone though.
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Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: July 09 2011 at 12:45
Here's what I'm getting from your posts: you think every progressive (avant-garde, forward thinking, whatever you name it) music (in this case adventurous metal) that you don't like cannot be progressive because you do not like it. Now I get what is "f**ked up" here.
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 09 2011 at 13:20
I am pretty sure that he is saying that dissonant music is not necessarily progressive, which is true. I did not find that track particularly progressive or interesting either, and I would agree that f**ked up is an ok (if not very eloquent) way to describe the second half of the song. I think you two are just getting pissy because he doesn't like metal or that song and he doesn't have enough avant-cred to diss it. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: July 09 2011 at 13:39
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Going back to the OP, I think a lot of the younger guys (and erm...dudettes) on PA listen to far more challenging music than I do (I'm 49) I don't think Polo is correct in surmising that King Crimson 776 considers all music he doesn't like as 'not progressive' as the latter has provided particular justification for his reservations restricted to specific examples. One of the questions that might arise from the OP is can music that is genuinely progressive ever achieve the sort of commercial success as that enjoyed by say, ELP and Yes in the early 70's? (I think it was the borrowed classical sophistication, rock grunt and conventional melodic hooks that went a long way towards this) Similarly, why should we dismiss music purely on account of it having features common to more accessible genres? (This smacks of 'hipper than thou' evangelism) ------------- 
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: July 09 2011 at 14:18
I agree completely with the first sentence. Not to overly generalize the older population (especially here on PA) but it does seem like alot of the older legion of prog rock fans like the more normal/streamlined/etc rock that was around in the 70s and 80s as opposed to the more challenging music that was around in that time. (Prog-rock not included.) Perhaps these people are just louder about their tastes than people who like both or the far end of the spectrum, but from what I see... (Again, not talking about anyone specific from PA just talking generally.)
However, I do think there is a problem with people calling music they like prog-rock and not music they don't. (Not calling out KC776 here, again speaking in a larger capacity than this thread.) Not sure why, perhaps it's just easier to like one (sub)genre of music instead of listing four or five. Or they are just in denial.
 Not to derail this thread more than it has been but there are plenty of examples of this with some of the suggestions made to add to this site. But thats another whole bag of canadian hook spiders. To answer your question ETL...I don't think so. That era of experimentation within music being accepted on a whole has passed on. Now commercial music is much more limited/boxed in/constricted that something like Larks' Tongues...or Fragile or Selling England By The Pound wouldn't fly for "the charts". Perhaps popular in more "underground" channels, but that's not really being a commercial success. And making truly progressive gets harder and harder as more music is made, so limits to music certainly aren't going to produce something that pushes the boundaries of rock, or music in general.And I guess I'll answer that last question too...but for me it's much more of a subjective situation. I don't like alot of the pop sound. It doesn't mesh with my musical tastes, which emphasize variation and experimentation above anything else. Certainly there are plenty of people who like the lot of it (prog, pop, classic rock, etc), but if I want something with a more commercial edge, I'll listen to neo prog nine times out of ten. (And that's nothing against neo prog.) ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 09 2011 at 14:29
I don't think so.
Because some people find those features very annoying? ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: July 09 2011 at 15:11
OK fair comment (I meant to say 'dismiss music as 'non-progressive' on account of it having features common to more accessible genres') Just as an aside, do you find the melodies or stylistic accompaniment in say Mozart or the Beatles annoying? -------------
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 09 2011 at 15:20
You don't want to know how Henry feels about (insert 99.9% of music here) |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 09 2011 at 15:29
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: July 09 2011 at 15:33
aaaaaahhhhhhhh! There it is! I was wondering when I would find something of use in here. That be it...OP is one of those people that only like "traditional" prog rock and anything else is terrible? Sadly, that's a very common mindset on this forum. So much for open minded music fans! Most metal heads I know are at least more accepting than some of these classic proggers |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: July 09 2011 at 16:00
Yes, I find some Mozart and Beatles pieces annoying, although to be fair to them some of that is overexposure. As for progressiveness, I do think that commercial appeal is to a certain extent mutually exclusive with progressive music, but we both know that "progressive" does not really hold much meaning and arguing about it is pointless. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: July 09 2011 at 16:24
But those ARE really good prog (metal) bands. -------------   
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 09 2011 at 21:54
| I disagree that music that has enjoyed commercial SUCCESS is a)necessarily commercial in the derogatory sense of the word or b)incapable of being progressive though this kind of thinking is highly pervasive and is pretty much what establishes the high art-low art divide. If anything, I find the idea that a piece should be very difficult to assimilate and unmemorable in the extreme tiresome and dull. All it achieves is establish a certain sense of exclusivity for listeners of such music and they can have that if they so please. As far as I am concerned, not many avant/rio bands could have written George Harrison's solo for Something but it takes a special kind of talent to convey so much in little more than 30 seconds. There is genius that goes above and beyond.....most commercial musicians lack brilliance and are content to reproduce pop cliches while serious musicians are unable to condense their brilliance into an appealing, 4 minute format. |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: July 10 2011 at 04:13
Indeed, and I don't see how I could have even remotely implied that. I even mentioned that I don't use the term "progressive" in the sense that many here are using it (i.e. "moving forward" etc.), as I find that to be an inane concept. All music is different from that which came before, some music to a greater degree than other music... should the criteria for addition on ProgArchives be based on some mathematical formula that determines "how much a given artist varies from all music which came before"? Quite an undertaking that would be... and where would the cutoff point be? But no, that would be absurd. "Progressive" only came about with the advent of bands such as King Crimson *fusing art music and popular music*. <-- therefore that should be the definition of this term "progressive" that has stuck. I think if more people adopted this definition firmly we would see a lot less nonsense about music "not being progressive enough" on here as well. |
Posted By: Siloportem
Date Posted: July 11 2011 at 15:15
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This thread should be moved to "just for fun". 'cause I'm almost rofling while reading it. At least while you guys were all dissing the OP. You have made me worry that my tastes are growing too commercial. You see, I don't dislike lady Gaga. Nah, that can't be it. Before the end of 2012 she'll be on the site. By the way, (and this has been puzzling me for a while now) WHY IS EVERYBODY OBSESSED WITH MY LITTLE PONIES?  My apologies to those who are taking this seriously. Let me try to add something constructive... I find the beatles annoying too and Mozart makes me sleepy. Really ticked me off when they appeared on the site. Hm. Maybe I have the bug too. ------------- Thanks !! Your topics always so good and informative. I like you talk. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: July 11 2011 at 17:04
hawt [/QUOTE] Sorry if I'm being harsh to some people here, but this is nowhere near my concept of prog rock, I'm afraid the term "prog rock" has stretched too far if we are including this music into it.
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Posted By: criticdrummer94
Date Posted: July 11 2011 at 17:47
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Well, How dare someone else likes music that's catchy and doesn't like the same music as you do because if they don't agree with you they are wrong. You just sound like a douche who is just pissed that not everyone likes the same music as you. BTW, I really like Spock's Beard and Neal Morse's solo career.
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Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 05:01
Are you kidding me? Back in the day (2005) you had to walk 25 miles in the snow barefoot and naked in the woods smeared in caramel being chased by angry bears. And then you crawled into the record store begging for a King Crimson and he would say : "nay! We only have Kanye West sampling KC!" and you would need to compensate and have to listen to Kanye West forever... Psh... you think you had it tough... ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: frippism
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 05:02
Couldn't agree more ------------- There be dragons |
Posted By: QuestionableScum
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 10:41
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The divide between the more pop minded prog fan, and the more avant minded prog fan has nothing to do with age. It is just a divide in preference. Camel, Yes and Genesis were always very pop minded. Furthermore, I know far more music fans who listen to Kayo Dot, than listen to Transatlantic, Spock's Beard, or Neal Morse. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 10:44
That surely reflects your company, really, because Spocks Beard must have more fans than KD, I'd assume. A section of metalheads are into Maudlin of the Well but I am not so sure about KD. |
Posted By: QuestionableScum
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 10:49
Perhaps to some degree. But my point by saying I know more music fans that like KD, than Spock's Beard, was to suggest that KD appeals to people who are genuinely passionate about music in general (ie music nerds). People I used to work at, at music stores who are generally indie music fans would appreciate Kayo Dot, but would laugh at Spock's Beard or the Flower Kings I imagine. I actually do not personally know anyone who likes Spock's Beard. Transatlantic or Neal Morse. Either way, as a youngun of 23 years, who only likes PT and Anathema of the bands mentioned in the OP, and generally listens to more abstract noncommercial prog I can use myself as a counter to this ludicrous thread. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 10:58
J Man on this very website considers Neal Morse the greatest songwriter ever last I heard (not that I personally do) and I wouldn't question his passion for music (referring to the earlier para which I haven't quoted here). Rob, he of the Epignosis fame, is also a SB/Morse fan as far as I know. So I am inclined to disagree with you. He he, I don't know what it is that makes some avant gardists distrust melody so much.
Fair enough and agreed that the premise is indeed ludicrous. |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 11:54
Did someone call DT mainstream 
I dunno about that, I put it on the sound system and the younguns in the house run for the hills - lol ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 11:54
He said "personally know," I'm going to go out on a limb and say that such a distinction does not include strangers on a website. |
Posted By: avantgrind
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 16:23
haha -------------
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Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 19:45
Fixed.
Cool story, bro.
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 19:47
Speaking of derp... |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 19:52
He ALSO said KD appeals to people who are genuinely passionate about music and such a distinction between both bands is illusory. It's incredibly presumptuous to believe SB would not appeal to people who genuinely love music just because it's not to one's taste. |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 19:54
| Hey don't make fun of that QuestionableScum guy, English ain't his first language ok? ... I hope. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 19:55
Why direct those comments to me? They don't have anything to do with me, or with what I wrote. Try addressing the person who made them.
I don't know what your issue is, but you're not remotely likable. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 19:57
I responded to your remark "out on a limb...blah blah". I have already answered on his comments (er, to which you responded, I presume). |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 20:01
I think you should re-read the above posts. ------------- 
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 20:01
WHAT IS GOING ON I DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 20:02
My issue was with that guy who tried to show a correlation between "avant" metal and "real music fans". At least I'm more likable than that type of person.
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 20:04
You say that his opinion is an indication that English is not his first language, an assertion that is not only a personal attack on him, but is insulting to everybody ESL. Opinions aren't valid because people don't come from the same culture as you? What a disgusting attitude. |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 20:04
Yes, because if someone does not like your derivative faux-70's symphonic, they are clearly hipsters. -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 20:05
Uh, what? Obviously I do know that strangers on the internet do not constitute people one knows. But since Triceratopsoil was, well, kind enough to state that specifically, I said that that was not what I had addressed. Now what is the confusion here? |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: July 12 2011 at 20:06
The fact that you are telling me things you mean to tell QuestionableScum. |