Dirty Words?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Topics not related to music
Forum Name: General discussions
Forum Description: Discuss any topic at all that is not music-related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=87753
Printed Date: July 19 2025 at 18:33
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Dirty Words?
Posted By: Textbook
Subject: Dirty Words?
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 06:25
|
Michigan democrat Lisa Brown was barred from further participation in a debate on abortion after saying the word "vagina". Republicans found the use of the word distasteful and inappropriate. So you can't say vagina in a debate on abortion? Seriously? Vagina isn't a dirty word guys. Every woman has one. The word can be used in dirty ways sure, but so can every word. An abortion discussion is not an unreasonable context for saying it. To me the whole thing looks like Republican pandering to a puritanical fanbase, the people who believe that America can become a stronger country through sexual conservatism. Anyway, in protest, Brown and 11 other female lawmakers protested by doing a reading of the infamous Vagina Monologues on the steps of the capitol. It turned into an impromptu rally with 2,500 people attending and chanting "Vagina! Vagina! Vagina!" together. Some might find this event and this thread childish, but I think it's a concern that in the government of a supposedly liberal country, you can't use the correct term for female anatomy in a discussion about women's health.
|
Replies:
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 06:40
|
Here's the quote: "Mr Speaker, I'm flattered that you're all so interested in my vagina, but no means no." Tennessee Republican Mike Callton said "What she said was offensive. It was so offensive, I don't even want to say it in front of women. I would not say that in mixed company." Very concerning. Callton explicitly says he would say vagina in front of men, but not in front of women. What is that about? Women are so fragile and sensitive that hearing a man name their genitalia will somehow damage them? And the word vagina is offensive? You were born from one. You create your own children using one. In my view, this whole thing is just symptomatic of a narrative going back to the dawn of recorded history to stigmatise female sexuality so that men can use it to dominate them and Callton's quote backs that right up. |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 06:42
| What happened to the other thread? Did the republicans hide it? (It had the V-word in it.) |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 06:46
|
It was deleted.I have reposted it because I do not accept that discussing the workings of the political system and gender politics is out of place in the General Discussion forum. However, as an olive branch to admin, I have rewritten it, making it more reserved than the original. The original thread did contain a fair bit of histrionic ranting and I accept that it could have been seen as inflammatory. I hope my writing style was the issue, not the use of the word vagina or my anti-Republican stance, for either of those would be very worrying indeed.
|
Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 06:54
|
I pretty much greet every woman with the word "vagina". Vagina should be absolutely fine, but "p***y" is a word that makes me cringe when used in any way. In any case, the speaker was most likely talking to adults, and they shouldn't be such babies. ------------- http://hanashukketsu.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow - Hanashukketsu |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 07:10
|
All seems a bit crazy to me. To react to a legitimate word used in context in this way. How american. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 07:27
------------- What? |
Snow Dog wrote:Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 07:35
|
http://www.slate.com/authors.amanda_marcotte.html" rel="nofollow - Amanda Marcotte
I want to address the content of the bill itself, which has more condescending sexism and outright sadistic misogyny in it than the comment thread on a blog post about women in video games. A quick summary of the ugliness within: 1) Michigan legislators have their eye on punishing women who try to get their abortions as quickly as possible after discovering their pregnancy, well before there’s any fetus to speak of. The bill forces women who want to take RU-486, which must be used in the first 63 days of pregnancy, to do so in the presence of a doctor. For the women who live in the 82 percent of Michigan counties without an abortion provider, this adds expense and time that usually result in women waiting until further along in their pregnancy to abort. 2) After all is said and done, even the existing abortion providers might not be there, since this bill is stuffed full of unnecessary regulations intended to shut down clinics, such as requiring clinics that only do medication abortion to have a full surgical suite that they will never actually use. If that expense doesn’t do them in, the requirement that they carry excessive levels of malpractice insurance will. These regulations have nothing to do with actual concerns about women’s safety. Abortion is one of the safest medical procedures around, especially in comparison with childbirth, http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/safety_of_abortion.html" rel="nofollow - which is 10 times more dangerous . 3) Doctors will now be required to screen for domestic violence and coercion before performing the abortion. In theory, this is the least offensive part of the bill, because counseling women to make sure that abortion is their own choice is already a standard part of abortion care. The problem is that the bill’s definition of “coercion” is troublingly vague and of course, utterly one-sided. The people who stand outside of abortion clinics to scare and harass women seeking abortion are coercive and abusive, but the bill doesn’t address this at all. 4) In addition, the House is expected to pass a bill banning abortions after 20 weeks, except to save a woman’s life, on the false premise that fetuses at that stage of gestation can feel pain. Bans on these kinds of abortions have a particularly sadistic bent, since women who seek abortions at that stage usually have the saddest stories of all. These abortions are most commonly in response to fetal defects that are harder to detect earlier in a pregnancy. Women and especially young girls who are suffering from sexual trauma and extreme poverty are overrepresented in this category. Overall, http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html" rel="nofollow - only 1.5 percent of abortions happen this late in pregnancy. As extreme as this bill is, anti-choice legislators in Michigan have even grander goals, hoping to eliminate abortion and seriously cripple contraception access. State Rep. Mike Shirkey made this clear, http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/13/michigan-approves-anti-abortion-law?newsfeed=true" rel="nofollow - announcing on the radio , “Until we completely eliminate abortions in Michigan and completely defund Planned Parenthood, we have work to do.” http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/06/18/michigan_vagina_dust_up_underlines_the_ugliness_of_the_anti_choice_mega_bill_.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/06/18/michigan_vagina_dust_up_underlines_the_ugliness_of_the_anti_choice_mega_bill_.html ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
|
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 07:37
I completely agree. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 07:52
| Slarty: Hear hear. That's more like the post I probably should've been making, |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 07:54
As I do now. I have now read the quote which I didn't before. That'll teach me. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 08:51
|
Geeeezzzzz, it's not only in abortion debates that censorship works
Some people here don't like vaginas as well!! ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 09:25
|
I think the word was fine (it's an actual anatomical term, after all), but her tone and her use of the word was unprofessional, sarcastic, and rather accusatory - "I'm flattered that YOU are so interested...." Maybe she shouldn't have been barred from the debate, but I see no problem with at least reprimanding her for that. And I'm not a Republican nor a Democrat, so I'm not following party lines here either. I just know that if I was participating in such a debate, I'd find the tone of the remark distasteful and unprofessional. I would expect similar treatment if I were to make such a comment at my own job. It's not about freedom of speech or the legitimacy of certain words, it's about professional rules of conduct. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 09:41
I see absolutely no "sexism" or "misogyny" in any of these components of the bill. They're trying to make it more difficult for women to have abortions, in order that less human beings may be killed. You may as well argue that the law discriminates against murderers because it imposes penalties for killing people. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 09:43
|
Please, please - I beg of you. Do not turn this into an abortion debate. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 09:45
I wasn't the one who brought it up. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 09:52
|
Why is contraception an issue? We should make it readily available. Do we REALLY want more poverse babies running around?
Also, why is abortion an issue? It only makes sense to me that if you make abortion illegal, everyone will get crappy coathanger backyard abortions and stds and crime will rise. I'm not really personally for abortion, just like I'm not a huge fan of alcohol, but as soon as that became illegal it started a whole shizzton of crime.
Also, why are ANY dirty words taboo anymore? I mean, we've already brainwashed our children into oversexualization and fisted our culture and pulled some brains out of it's ass. Basically, I still hate everything. But really this whole freaking out over the word vagina feels like a joke. She shoudl have been kicked out though not for her use of vagina, but her tone of voice and the way she was attempting to argue her position.
Do you REALLY think that condescending to people and using a spiteful tone of voice is going to change ANYONE'S opinion? This woman is doing nothing to help her cause at all. What an idiot. ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 09:56
|
I think it's time politicians were held to the same standard of professional conduct and ethics that the rest of us are. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 09:56
|
..........aaaaaand we're off
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 10:04
You realize the supreme irony here right? ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 10:06
 yes------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 10:21
Michigan legislators are currently considering http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/07/michigan-abortion-bill_n_1578179.html" rel="nofollow - one of the most extreme anti-abortion omnibus bills in the country. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
|
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 10:38
|
^I was begging Ambient.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 10:52
I don't know the thread this refers to, but...
The site has a set of rules for the benefit of all. They were compiled a while back after a lot of discussion in the forum about what type of site we wanted. You are of course quite entitled to disagree with them or the way they are enforced by the admin team. What we would ask though is that you respect the rule and the efforts made by the admins to enforce them. If everyone makes up their own rules, we simply have anarchy.
All I am asking is that people are considerate towards other members when posting. Remember, this is first and foremost a music site.
|
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 10:54
this ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">  The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 11:10
I refuse to believe that. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 11:14
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 11:14
I second this but a explanation is in place: The SITE as in Progarchives.com is not first and foremost a music site, is ONLY a music site. Progarchives.com/forum, the forum on this website has stopped being a music first and foremost forum long time ago, probably since the time of its creation. Take off the non-musical discussion from this forum and you will slash traffic in half, if not more. Anyway, I demand a senator to talk about his penis now. It would only be just. ------------- 
|
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 11:16
That would be entertaining ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 11:26
|
Don't they generally talk with their penises. ------------- 
|
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 11:27
|
They think with their penises and talk with their asses.
------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 11:28
That aint just politicians  ------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 11:34
|
Look how many of them are named Dick.
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 11:37
 ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 20 2012 at 11:49
Puhleese, does "Finally, Mr. Speaker, I'm flattered that you're all so interested in my penis, but 'no' means 'no,'" sound like something a male senator would say?  The best one: Richard Nelson "Dick" Swett (born May 1, 1957) is an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_the_United_States" rel="nofollow - American politician from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._state" rel="nofollow - U.S. state of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hampshire" rel="nofollow - New Hampshire . ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
|
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 03:01
I sincerely hope that's not the case. Personally, I would be quite happy to see the traffic drastically reduce in order to move the balance back towards the reason the site was set up. We have lost too many fine contributors with a vast knowledge of prog, who became fed up with the way the forum had been hijacked by those with little interest in prog.
Perhaps we need a full discussion about the direction the site should pursue in the future. I know a number of high profile figures on the site are currently considering their options as they become worn down by the way things are. The more such people we lose, the more the site drifts from its intended purpose. That cannot be good for its long term future.
|
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 03:04
 -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 03:05
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 04:39
At the risk of upsetting both of you (I'm in no position to do that, right now), I find that most that have left did so because of internal management issues (some even resorting to unsuccessful blackmail), often due to lack of action by the head honcho (not aiming at all at Admins, here)..
The management of the forum was maybe an issue to an Italian lady, but in 90% of the case, it was the database's management that raised irritations and disputes
=================
The free-speach policy of the forum was actually very much an asset for the site, even if Maani left things self-regulate somehow and sometimes a tad too much... Because it didn't always self-regulate by itself.
I have absolutely no problems whatsoever with the palette of subjects that are discussed in the General Discussion Forum... If a subject upsets you... don't open it.... And if you do... do so at your own risk... go cry to mommy, but save the forum of the crybaby thing...
This doesn't mean that all subjects should be openly discussed... Obviously there is a fine line - which I'd hate to qualify as "politically correct" (and often is not politically correct, because it resembles to censorship), but it's clearly about the abuse of political correctness issue to make censorship (speaking of the abortion debate issue here, not the thread itself)... The censorship of the use of the word "vagina" is simply inacceptible in a free-speech society... How can an anatomical word be a dirty word?? In the name of prudery???
Let's call a cat a pussy then, shall we??
 ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 04:53
You need to read the background of this "vagina" incident - the objection was not about the use of the word "vagina", the word "vagina" was not the subject of censorship - Lisa Brown was censured for the how she used the word, she was not censored for using it. Unfortunately - poor journalism and even poorer reading-skills have done their usual trick of ensuring this story is coitused up (anatomically correct word) beyond recognition. That is the real sad indictment on the state of the world today. ------------- What? |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 05:16
|
First I read what HE said, and I thought 'That's preposterous'. Then I read what SHE said and I thought: 'Silly cow, serves her right'. The whole incident was not about the word vagina but about the context in which it was used. The abortion context doesn't even play into this. Talk about sensationalism! |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 05:32
|
Actually their objection was to this: Lisa Brown: "The day before, we were debating http://039.housedems.com/news/article/gop-tactics-on-house-floor-silence-women-legislators-for-fighting-back" rel="nofollow - a new anti-choice law that would over-regulate women's health clinics to the point many could no longer offer abortions. It would require doctors to make the equivalent of funeral arrangements for fetal remains, both in the cases of http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/abortion" rel="nofollow - abortion and miscarriage; and it would hinder women in rural areas or who don't have transportation from getting early abortions by prohibiting doctors from prescribing abortion drugs by phone.When it was my turn to talk, I explained my opposition to the bill. As a Jew, I said that I follow my faith's teaching that when a pregnant woman's health and life is at stake, it's her life that comes first. As a member of a religious minority, I understand that not everyone shares my views, and I respect that. In turn, I asked that they not force their religious views on me." The vagina comment pales in comparison to what they were proposing. Could she have chosen her words better, certainly. If she hadn't said that, people wouldn't be talking about the issues at hand anyway. There have been a rash of anti-abortion laws being passed around this country and those who are advancing them don't want any attention brought to it. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
|
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 05:34
|
Easy Livin': This is the "General Discussion" forum. The General Discussion forum is specifically for not talking about music. I don't see how this kind of discussion is even vaguely a threat to PA. Political views expressed in the general forum have no impact on the purpose or direction of the site. People who aren't interested in non-musical discussion probably aren't in this forum. I'm very worried that what you just said there is "Admin don't like Textbook's (and others) political views and are considering either silencing him or quitting"-please correct me if I'm wrong about that, but that seemed to be the subtext. Both actions are not necessary. If I were truely defiant/hopeless, I would have reposted this thread the way it was the first time instead of rewriting it. The original thread was quite different from this one- same story but I covered it in a much more wild and vituperative way. This toned-down edition of the thread has not been censored, so I guess the problem was my attitude, not the subject. And certainly no one needs to quit because they think I'm a dick. Go ahead, think I'm a dick. Heck, know I'm a dick. We can dialogue on it and try to compromise towards a happy middle ground as I tried to do with rewriting this thread, as was done (in PM) regarding the thread I made a while back complaining about over-zealous admin. It's not (and almost never is) a One Must Fall scenario. If you try to dictate what we as adults are allowed to talk about, you can expect anybody half-decent to head for the door. Anyone who stays is going "I'm a sheep and/or a frightened dinosaur taking shelter from the world." And you would be happy to see the traffic reduce drastically? Really? So is the purpose of this site to spread the information about progressive music to as many people who want to hear it or is it for you and a select group of approved buddies to have safe, repetitive conversations where no riff-raff turn up and say something "bad"? Easy Livin', I like you, none of this is said in attack. I'm just trying to get you to think about why I might think your position is the wrong one. Anyway, it's cool if we drop this angle and just return to the topic in the OP, I don't want to drag it out. But if you feel you want to respond, doing it here or going to PM are both fine.
|
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 05:39
|
I would be surprised if more than about 10% of us are here only for the non music forums.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
|
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 05:45
For someone with a perspective they consider clearly above the petty and trivial posturing of PC, you don't even have the balls/vagina (delete as applicable) to name the Italian lady as 'Raff' and you cite internal management issues you have never, are not and never will be privvy to as pivotal in the decisions for several people to leave the site yet decline to name those individuals. You also refer to unsuccessful blackmail and I would ask that you advise me by PM what precisely this refers to, failing that, I would request that you stop wasting everyone's time with posts that are poorly thought out, cowardly, disingenuous, speculative, borderline slanderous and betray a belligerent contempt for even rudimentary spelling. Word to the wise cupcake, proof read your allegations ------------- 
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 06:13
------------- What? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 06:19
| I see I've risen considerably in your estimation if you'd now suspect that I know something. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 06:30
------------- What? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 06:36
Oh look, it's another "Whoever doesn't agree with me is a sheep" post from Textbook.  Free speech (in the US) does not allow one to enter a private or commercially owned establishment and talk about whatever I want. A movie theater will throw you out for talking at all. If this site were to suddenly be rid of the non-music forums, I would stay all the same. It's the database that drew me to this site initially. I joined a year before I even started posting. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 06:41
|
Epig: Did you know that you can make love to your spouse in your own bedroom but not on a public bus? To wit, this isn't a movie theatre. It's a *General Discussion* forum. And I did not say people who don't agree with me are sheep. I said people who are happy to have their range of options dictated to them are sheep. And that's a fact.
|
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 06:50
Yes, it is a *General Discussion* forum that is private property. Someone owns this website and it's not the government.
There are http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13083" rel="nofollow - a lot of things on this website that you are not permitted to discuss. So Textbook, your range of options has been limited. You're still here. Can you say "Baa?" ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 06:57
|
Sigh... you and your smug "gotcha" attempts... Do you think I was asking for the freedom to post pornography and plot homicides? Do you think I feel restricted or oppressed not having the freedom to do those things here? I don't expect or want it. But I do expect and want to be able to discuss issues like the one in this thread. People who are content with being told they are not allowed to talk about contentious issues, because the admin has decided they can't be trusted, are sheep.
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:01
|
But - the premis of "the one in this thread" was bogus from the outset ------------- What? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:05
| Dean: I don't think we're talking about that now, we're talking about whether people are allowed to talk about edgy topics in General Discussion. |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:13
Admins are just here to administer the site; a part of that is to ensure site rules & guidelines are adhered to, so (I may be being dim here, but...) I don't see how trust is an issue. -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:16
|
If you say "Don't talk about politics" the only reason you'd say that is "because you're a big bunch of babies who can't talk about politics without it becoming a flame war and/or we disapprove of views contrary to ours." It does imply a lack of trust re: your user base. And I know you haven't said that, I'm just saying if you did, that's a possible interpretation.
|
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:16
|
^ Not an entirely unreasonable request on a music appreciation website where we allow discussion on: Would You Consider Dating A Transsexual? Dirty Words? Are People, In General, Crazy? Sleeveface, Clueless, Best Of vs Greatest Hit, Big Number, Prog's Most Controversial Lyricist, Should Art Rock Be A Sub-Genre On PA? Out Hud, These New Puritans, Dubious Genres #1: Cloud Rap, Music Banter, Marvel vs DC, I Am Am I Who Am I, The Greatest Video Ever Made, Ruby Frost, Cruellest Review, That's Why God Made The Radio (and we're still in June folks) Contentious issues are one thing but scatter-gunning the forum with lame threads that the OP invariably has to bump to garner any responses is another. The only contentious issue here is where does the laudable largesse afforded to yourself stem from re the general body of the membership? -------------
|
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:20
"If you did that, you'd be this, but you didn't so you're not" Thanks for the clarification, there -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:28
|
ETL: I have no idea what you think you're doing. That's Why God Made The Radio: It was about a Beach Boys album. Is this unreasonable? Cruellest Review: A lot of people here enjoy reading and discussing reviews. Is this unreasonable? Ruby Frost: A new artist I tried to interest people in. Is this unreasonable? The Greatest Video Ever Made: A joke and in the Just For Fun forum. Is this unreasonable? I Am Am I Who Am I: A new artist I tried to interest people in. Is this unreasonable? Music Banter: A site I thought people might be interested in. Is this unreasonable? Dubious Genres: An attempt to look at oddball genres, something quite natural for a prog site I would've thought. Is this unreasonable? These New Puritans: A suggestion for a new band on PA. Is this unreasonable? Out Hud: An overlooked band I attempted to interest people in. Is this unreasonable? Should Art Rock Be A Sub-Genre On PA: Seriously, this is a lame thread you can't understand someone making here. Really? Prog's Most Controverisal Lyricist: Same as above. Big Numbers: About sales in prog, see above. Best Of vs Greatest Hits/Clueless: Alright, these two were a bit ephemeral. Sleeveface: I think these are hilarious and it's in Just For Fun. Are People In General Crazy?: So why exactly can I not ask this? Dirty Words: A polticial incident I was upset about. Would You Consider Dating A Transsexual: A psychologically and socially interesting question imo. But more importantly, and this trumps everything above, I DON'T START THREADS SO THAT YOU PERSONALLY MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN THEM. I, and everyone else here, starts threads because THEY are interested in them and they hope that others might be too. If they are not, that is fine. I am welcome to attempt to interest people in whatever I like as often as I like and so is everyone else here. I really feel you're clutching at straws here because not only are most of the cited threads absolutely valid, but if it were some sort of crime to start an unsuccessful or lame thread, we'd all be banned. And if you do want to play that game, I started the You Know You're A Prog Addict thread, which is still on the front page after two and a half years, 62 pages, 1230 replies . The most replies to any thread started by ETL in the last six months? 2. Check if you don't believe. So kaboom, game over.
|
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:29
| Jim: It sounds like some people are suggesting that the site should say that though. I was saying what I would think were that to become the case. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:38
We get it, you're bored sh*tless. Why not target the non music related topics to more specialised sites where you might get a more informed and erudite response. (I suspect you don't do this because on PA, very few are gonna show you up when it comes to credible life experience maaan) -------------
|
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:40
|
"Man this forum would be a really cool place if there weren't people trying to contribute to it all the time. I hate it when I go on and there's a thread there not exactly like one I've already seen." Seriously, I have no idea what you are trying to do/say. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:43
|
^ You've initiated over 20 forum threads in 1 month and you're asking me to consider you stuck for words by way of my responses? Nah.....
-------------
|
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:44
| AND you cited 17 threads- 14 of them were about music. So what is this non-music focus I have? |
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:45
Nobody's saying that at all - Over the 8 years I've been on this site, General Discussions has seen various debates/discussions on extremely contentious subjects from abortion rights, to modern day nazism, sexual orientation, holocaust denial, drug use & political exchanges from virtually every part of the spectrum. None of these threads have ever been summarily closed due to the subject matter itself (unless specifically promoting illegal activities). However, many have been closed due to the discussions going outside the site's rules & guidelines - that is why us admins moderate the forum. -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:48
Has any Admin actually said: "Stop making lame threads or we'll ban you" ?
Has any Admin actually said: "This topic is off-limits and will be censored" ?
Has any Admin actually said: "You are not allowed to talk about that" ?
Has any Admin actually said: "Man this forum would be a really cool place if there weren't people try ing to contribute to it all the time. I hate it when I go on and there's a thread there not exactly like one I've already seen" ?
Has any Admin actually said: "You are not allowed to bitch about us" ?
Has any Admin ever really harassed you for any reason ?
Has any Admin ever publically (I don't know what people have done via PM) threatened to ban or suspend you ?
Has any Admin ever banned anyone for starting non-music threads here ?
------------- What? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:48
|
ETL: So I started 17 (this is not over 20 btw) threads in a month. OH NO I'LL USE THEM ALL UP. And they were all completly irrelevant spam that it's absolutely crazy to assume anybody here would ever want to talk about too, as I explained in the post you've quoted atop this page. I'll be honest: I think this whole thing you're doing with me is about you not liking my views on things. That's what I think.
|
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:51
|
Dean: The answer to one of those questions is yes (really) but I don't think it would be consructive to air the details. But the rest of them, the answer is no and that's it exactly. I'm concerned that it could head in that direction. You don't stop something by bitching about it after it's happened. A pre-emptive bitch, that's me. Wait a minute, that didn't sound right.
|
Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:51
"Help, help I'm being repressed!" "Bloody peasant" -------------
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:52
| Anyway, this is getting too serious and negative. I say we just dead this conversation and carry on normally about the forum and I live in hope that ETL finds my next thread absolutely riveting stuff because it's always been him I have in mind when I post here. |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:58
|
I came *this close* to starting a thread over in a music forum based off ETL's personal page about how Brain Salad Surgery was the first prog album I listened to and how King Crimson, Genesis, Argent, the Nice and Greenslade are my favourite bands. Would he have noticed what I was doing? Probably. But the good thing about me not actually doing it and instead just spoiling the idea here, is that we can imagine that he wouldn't have.
|
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 07:59
You really need a new role model pilgrim -------------
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 08:00
------------- What? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 08:02
|
What's really going on with me and ETL is that I'm using this place as a playground due to my inability to sleep, for him it's a big serious deal. That's all. Both uses are equally valid. ETL: Peace brother. I'm serious.
|
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 08:05
|
What the hell was that, they're not equally valid at all. ETL's is far more valid. ETL: I guess you win. Well done.
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 08:05
|
Well, you can file it away as a future anecdote to impress newbies: "The day I was picked-on by 4 Admins" ------------- What? |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 08:09
|
^^ You flatter yourself that I think these tiresome exchanges a big deal but I sincerely hope you cure your sleep problem. The only mitigating circumstances that I can cite are that I give a f*ck about the site. PA's future does does not rest upon either of us, we are both irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
-------------
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 08:51
I had read enough of it to know (at least I think so) that it was the way she replied using her own sex that was the problem (despite the guy saying he'd use the word in front of en and not in front of women, showing this dude's got a heavy psychological problem),
This is still a censorship problem, because essentially, abortion is a 99% feminine-only issue and problem.... yet it seems that it's always (or mostly) the ones that are not concerned by the problem that make it an even more complicated problem for those who are concerned.... so she obviously told the guy, that he was not concerned and to stopping worrying about her wombs... So the guy clearly losing the point cried foul (on what possible grounds, I wonder)
Basically, what the hell are men intruding in this debate for??? they've got almost no say (unless being the potential father) in the matter... it's not their body.
Let women deal with the issue...
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: markosherrera
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 09:42
Hello, I wrote very little in the forum from when I was censored and not let me put more pictures, I just had placed pictures of priests who blessed weapons I'm used to more freedom of expression, show historical facts should not be censored, however, decided not to comment more on political and religious issues, only occasionally'll bring something in music ------------- Hi progmaniacs of all the world |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 10:06
------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 10:16
Then evidently you did not read enough. The "guy" who censured her for the context in which she used it was not the same "dude" who said he would not use the word in front of women. So the second "dude" was a knee-jerk reactionist who also managed to completely miss-read the situation.
That's still misreading the context and use of the word. But once again - it does not matter.
------------- What? |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 10:36
Just realize us Michiganders are really quite  up and taken in that context it all makes perfect sense. -------------
|
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 10:38
|
"One week ago, the Michigan House of Representatives was taking up some of the most restrictive anti-choice legislation in the country. It was in the context of this bill that I said, "Finally Mr. Speaker, I'm flattered that you're all so interested in my vagina, but 'no' means 'no.'" You can watch me say that here. My comment is made around the 1:50 mark, and you can see exactly how the legislators seated behind me reacted. While there was a scatter of applause from my colleagues, there were no dropped jaws, bulging eyes or fainting. In fact, the only remarkable thing about their response is that there was virtually no response at all. Not until the next day. That's when I got word that Republican House leaders had banned me and my colleague Rep. Barb Byrum from speaking on the House floor. I was shocked. Given my speech, I could only assume it was because I spoke to my Jewish values or because I had said vagina. But later that day, Rep. Mike Callton told the press that what I had said was so vile, so disgusting, that he could never bear to mention it in front of women or "mixed company." Since we share the same religion, I'm guessing he wasn't referring to my kosher sets of dishes. Even though Callton has a bachelor's degree in biology and worked as a chiropractor, it was the word "vagina" that did him in. As a storm of protest grew against our silencing and women across the state started to rally around my use of the word vagina, Republicans changed course. They insisted they had no problem with vaginas. Byrum and I were being punished for our lack of decorum. We were accused of throwing a "temper tantrum." Take another look at the video. Do you see a temper tantrum? Does that look like a group of people shocked by what we said or how we behaved? http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/28/living/vagina-politics/index.html" rel="nofollow - When complaints about our banning picked up pace, Republicans tried again. This time, their story was that I was kept from speaking because I said "no means no." As Republicans continued to throw mud against the wall to see what stuck, they only made it worse for themselves. Thousands of women, not only in Michigan but across the country and even around the globe, saw exactly what was going on. What they saw was a male-dominated legislative body going to great lengths to silence two women who dared speak in opposition to a measure that would limit access to our health care. They saw it, and they didn't like it." - Lisa Brown 6/21/12 ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
|
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 11:31
Keep in mind that all of us who visit the general discussion forum more often than the music ones were attracted to PA by the music. But then after we had 030129312 discussions on the same subjects we stayed because there were other things we could discuss besides "Yes vs Genesis" or "DTis overrated". Eliminate the general discussions area and you'll have a thriving community of members who will come and go and just a few very consistent ones will remain. At least I think so. I wouldn't cry about losing fine contributors. If they left is because they didn't care enough or they got fed up by something or they just wanted PA to be exactly like they wanted to be and all people be exactly like they are. Yes, open-mindedness scares ome people. Let them go to their protective bubbles where they don't have to face any other opinion but one similar to their own. There are tons of talented people PA has lost but tons that have arrived. If the site is really going to consider changes for the future, I hope Max leaves the music-exclusive mentality and opens GeneralDiscussionArchives.com  -------------
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 12:20
I agree with Teo - how much can anyone say about this band or that album that hasn't been said a gazillion times before, and there are only so many times you can say "No, Pink Floyd are not overrated", "No, punk didn't kill prog", "No, prog really was called prog back in 1971", "No, modern prog is prog", "No, prog metal is prog", "No, Dream Theatre are not treated badly here", "No, Metallica are not prog", "No, Stratovarius are not prog" "No, Prog does not have to be progressive" etc. regardless of the wide-eyed wonder of the snot-nosed brat that uttered the words, BUT, there are occasionally some very good music discussions,and sometimes there are some new bands or some forgotten old band that does result in "a buzz" of interest around the forum, and sometimes even I can learn something I either did not know, or wasn't aware of. BUT, the non-music side of the forum is also just as repeatative and occasionally just as provoking and interesting,and sometimes even I can learn something I either did not know, or wasn't aware of. I've said this before - it's the people that make this forum, not the topics we discuss, even the peoples that piss me off royally. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 13:07
|
^WHAT DO YOU MEAN METALLICA ISN'T PROG
------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 15:14
| The T and Dean are spot-on there. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 15:33
|
My personal concern which I haven to be using this thread to voice, is for the overall balance and future of the site. I joined this site in its early days when it was dedicated to prog in what i would define as it's purest form. Believe it or not, we had a long debate about whether Tangerine Dream should be added back then.
The general discussions and other non-prog sections were there for those who main passion was the music to discuss other matters of mutual interest. The success of the site though has led to people with little genuine interest in prog joining and participating in primarily the non-prog areas. Their interest in music is comparatively superficial and they spend more time in the non-prog sections than they do writing reviews and contributing to the prog discussions. I am of course generalising and I am of course referring only to certain unnamed members. I don't buy into the like/don't like philosophy with people I've never met, so I will keep my comments general.
I would like to see the site pulled back to being first and foremost about the music. I would genuinely like to see those who use the site mainly as a means of discussing controversial and sensitive matters go elsewhere and stop hijacking the site. Of course I do not wish to stop such discussions, but my perception is that they were far more constructive, informed and frankly interesting when they were among friends with a common prime interest.
These days, for me the site is spoiled by those who don't really care about it's reason for existing, but use it as a means of massaging their own egos.
I am genuinely concerned about the way the site is going. If we lose our prog experts and devotees the site will be in danger and the trolls will simply go elsewhere.
|
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 16:08
|
You're concerned that trolls would go elsewhere? But more importantly, your post explicitly yearns for a community where we all have the same interests. Why would you want that? How is it a strength? How is such an attitude progressive or even interesting? If you want to hang out with your buddies, hang out with your buddies. Form an email group. Or perhaps hang out more in the music folders. This is a public forum.
|
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 16:15
|
Personally, I wouldn't like to see the general topics taken away. I think we have some really interesting discussions going on that are mostly devoid of controversy. I don't shy away from controversy but, I am here for the music. BTW, just recently added entries for the VHS of Talking Heads - Storytelling Giant, Laurie Anderson - Collected Videos and Home Of The Brave. Three excellent videos that still aren't available on DVD. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
|
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 16:28
This. I love swearing and being liberal as any 20-something, but they way this is being portrayed by dumb false martyrs sounds like she walked up to the podium, said "Women have have a vagina." and was then censured, disbarred, had her license revoked, fined $50, then enrolled in a rehab program for teaching Congresswomen about the dangers of vaginae. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 17:18
Please stop using that adjective as though it's inherently desirable or that those who love progressive music have to be "progressive" (whatever that means) in other aspects of their lives. 
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 17:25
 http://www.populist.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.populist.com/ THE PROGRESSIVE POPULIST, a newspaper that believes people are more important than corporations, premiered in November 1995 as a monthly tabloid publication based in Storm Lake, Iowa, with editorial offices in Austin, Texas. In October 1999 it expanded to twice-monthly publication. In 2005, the editorial offices were moved a few miles south, to Manchaca, Texas.The Progressive Populist reports from the heartland of America on issues of interest to workers, small-business owners and family farmers and ranchers. It serves as "The People's Voice in a Corporate World." http://progressive.org/" rel="nofollow">
 The Progressive is a monthly leftwing magazine of investigative reporting, political commentary, cultural coverage, activism, interviews, poetry, and humor. It steadfastly stands against militarism, the concentration of power in corporate hands, and the disenfranchisement of the citizenry. It champions peace, social and economic justice, civil rights, civil liberties, human rights, a preserved environment, and a reinvigorated democracy. Its bedrock values are nonviolence and freedom of speech.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 17:38
 What Bob wrote seemed pretty plain to me. If the "trolls" drive away the people who keep this site active as a Prog site then its popularity will decline and the "trolls" will f*ck-off to some other more popular site. It's the concept of crapping in your own nest, or the parasite that kills the host, and other such idioms.
Skipping Rob's very valid point about the over-use of "progressive" around here as some positive trait. Bob said "with a common prime interest" - you know, that prime interest that gathers us all here - can you guess what that is? Do you need a clue what the prime interest that brings us to the Prog Archives Forum [Your Ultimate Prog Rock Resource] is?
Once again, no it is not - it is a members only forum on a privately owned website running on a privately owned server. Any website or forum where you can be denied access by simply blocking your account is not a public forum. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 18:54
|
So there's no such thing as public then because you can be forcibly removed from a public space should you behave in a certain way, just as you will be banned from here from behaving in a certain way. And we do have a common prime interest. We're all interested in unusual music. Who are these people who come here who are not interested in innovative music? I don't see them around. I think that's a euphimism for "people who are different from me."
|
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 19:05
Huzzah! Now, where's this freeze peach?
There are people who give the impression that they are not really that interested in Progressive Rock; there are people here who seldom, if ever, post in a music thread; there are people here who do not seem to be very knowledgeable about Progressive Rock and there are people here who are not motivated to talk "music" at all - now I've nothing against those people, and I do wonder why they are here sometimes, but the last thing that ever crosses my mind is "are they different from me", except of course, everyone here is different from me... I hope... because I certainly don't want to be like anyone here.
I think "innovative music" is too vague by quite a margin and not really what a sizable number of Progressive Rock bands are about. But I know what you mean I'm just being contrary for the sake of it. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 20:03
|
Dean: But you're not one of the people who want this place to be a recursive "I like x!" "I like x too!" |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 20:12
Can you name someone who is does? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 20:14
| Epig: There's this thing called guile. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: June 21 2012 at 20:15
There's this thing called answering the question. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |