The future of the GOP
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Topic: The future of the GOP
Posted By: The T
Subject: The future of the GOP
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 09:51
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What future is there for the GOP? Really, I've asked this before here but the question is dodged. Yes, demographics shouldn't dictate outcomes because groups don't blindly vote for candidates of their group. But when the opposite party wins over 70% of hispanic vote and OVER 90% of the black vote, it's clear you have alienated those two groups which in just a few years will become a majority. It doesn't help that women overwhelmingly have abandoned you and you people have deserted you. What do you do?
The GOP can turn a positive eye on immigration and welfare and all of that, but then it becomes the Democrat Party II. And people will vote for the real thing. Or you can radicalize and play only to your core values, but then you are basically conceding defeat forever. What is the course of action for the GOP? I know a good answer would be to go libertarian but, on one hand, those same groups are hardly libertarian in economic and social issues. And two, American are growing too comfortable with the idea of the paternalistic powerful state to allow a shift towards the opposite. Should we make the already existing one-party solution official? ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 09:59
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I expect the GOP will continue to drift left and abandon their principles until they look even more like the Democrats than they do now. Sadly, the only way it is possible to win elections in this country now is to promise everyone free stuff-more welfare, free healthcare, free education, etc. In order to win the hispanic vote you have to let anyone who wants come into the country and stay forever while collecting government benefits. In order to win the woman vote, you have to concede that it's okay to slaughter babies. In order to win the black vote, you have to allow people not to remain unemployed while still collecting their free stuff. In my view, there is no point in winning elections if you can only do so by being the same as your opponent. I doubt if I will ever vote GOP again. We are a one party nation now and democracy has led, as it always will, to people voting themselves into slavery. ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 15:08
| It should be split up into its various constituents: the selfish wealthy, the religulous, the skeeters, real conservatives, racists, paleos, neos, etc. Hat's off to Lincoln, T. Roosevelt, and D. Eisenhower. Other than those guys, no honorable republicans come to mind. :) |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 15:12
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^There are many more. Just as there are decent liberals and of all political currents (probably a decent nazi or communist will be the only really difficult thing to find). -------------
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Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 15:33
This House bunch is the most conservative ever in the history of Congress. The GOP isn't going to become the Party of Big Government. What I think is most likely is that an entirely new crop of pragmatist technocrats are going to rise to the top. The Dems have never been the party of science and reason. The fact that they have taken that mantle basically speaks volumes to the disaster that has befallen the Republican Party. The Republicans need to become the party of liberty and measured policy if they are going to survive. //EDIT: And that does not mean that they should become Libertarians. Libertarians place personal and economic liberty above all else, but the pragmatist coalition cannot adhere to that absolutely as a Libertarian would. ------------- Hail Eris! 
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thellama73 wrote:Posted By: ProgBob
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 15:55
You mean become very right wing instead of extremely right wing?
i.e. the sorts of things you might expect in a civilised country?
Sounds like the sort of thing you might approve of. Might be a way of dealing with those lazy blacks you mentioned and the welfare scroungers. ------------- Bob |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 15:55
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The GOP rejected a principled candidate in favor of an "electable" one. Always remember that. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 16:08
You have a very sick mind -------------  Time always wins. |
Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 16:13
| The GOP is going nowhere as long as they're still holding seats in Congress. It's only when they start losing elections massively that they'll want to change. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 16:15
| Is it possible they did not really want to win? |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 16:29
| They will have to embrace their libertarian side and eschew their socially conservative side to have a hope of winning elections again. Fighting against the pursuit of happiness and freedom of decent, law abiding and tax paying citizens by telling them what to do with their bodies and whom they can and cannot marry just doesn't fly anymore today unless you are a 3rd world dictatorship or other totalitarian state, and will become less and less viable with each generation. The only way for them to distinguish themselves is to TRULY embrace small government instead of paying lip service to it. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 16:47
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The gay marriage issue I guess is becoming less of an issue. It's sad though that abortion has been accepted universally as the enlightened option. Sad. -------------
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 17:11
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 17:16
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Some overreaction monday (err wednesday) action here.
Exactly. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 20:48
------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 20:52
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Come on now you can go smoke weed. Your state has really advanced. -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 20:59
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it's a great question; maybe they should take a play from the Clinton handbook and usurp someone else's ideas; ones that work and make sense broadly without abandoning whatever core values you still have, pretend you thought of it, and surprise everyone with a sudden modern appeal. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 21:07
It's not stereotypes. It's statistics. A majority of Hispanics vote for the candidate with the softest immigration stance. A majority of women vote for the candidate with the loosest position on abortion, and a majority of blacks vote for the candidate who supports the most generous benefits for the poor. Candidates who want to win on a national level now have to adopt those positions, due to demographic shifts. It's not my fault if reality conforms to the stereotypes people hold. -------------
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 21:52
Well said Bob. This idea of the Republicans drifting to the left is ludicrous. Both the Republicans and the Democrats have continued to move to the right for the past 30 years. Gone are the days of the Roosevelts, the progressives and a real sense of America as a society where people have duties to both society and to one another. As for the last point, Logan, I know you would never approve of official state-sponsored slavery, but you do approve of a kind of indentured servitude (allowing people to basically contract themselves into slavery - the means may be different but the result is the same). ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 21:57
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None of this partisanship will matter. The debt will ruin us and then there will be no social programs nor military funded. I just wonder how liberals will blame (true) fiscal conservatives for the house of cards collapsing in our lifetime. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 21:57
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My idea of a civilized society is one which encourages individual achievement and self-sufficiency, not dependence on the state. Oh yeah, and one that doesn't sanction the slaughter of babies.
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 22:02
Of course not, then where would the corporations get all their cheap labor from? Got to keep the population high to keep the workers cheap.  ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 22:09
Asia? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 22:15
Sure. But if we could only wipe out taxes and regulations and get the population high enough, the corporations would have their own third world country to exploit right here at home. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 22:25
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Your assumption that a high population translates into high levels of poverty is incorrect. Population growth is essential to a growing economy, because each person is then capable of producing something, as well as consuming the products produced by others. Population growth is good.
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Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 23:41
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^ The Doctor's assumptions are always wrong, along with his understanding of reality. Best to just enjoy a good laugh and move on.
Anyway, to topic:
http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/will-there-be-a-civil-war-in-the-gop/" rel="nofollow - http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/will-there-be-a-civil-war-in-the-gop/ ------------- Time always wins. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 03:10
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Courtesy of bartcop.com:
Subject: What Should They Do Now Bart I have been watching the news and all the Pundits are asking what happened and what should the Republicans do to fix their problem. Not one of them has spoke the truth on what they need to do. Number 1 The Women of this country really don't like a bunch of old fat rich white guys telling them what they can and can not do with there bodies. LISTEN to the women and stop doing that. Number 2 You cant take away Health coverage for over 40 million Americans with pre existing conditions then say they dont deserve to have insurance because the insurance companies arent making enough of a profit. That really pisses people off. Number 3 Stop the HATE If your marriage is so fragile that people of the same sex who love each other and deserve the same rights as every other citizen has, then you have a pretty sh*tty marriage. Divorce each other and find happiness. Number 4 Stop putting Corp. Profits over people Nothing much to add to that. Number 5 Whether You like it or not the country is changing there are more educated minorities and guess what: They VOTE Stop trying to send their parents back to a place where they can't live a healthy happy life with their AMERICAN born children. NUMBER 5 stop trying to force your religion down MY throat, I really dont care what You believe and quite honestly I think that talking to zombies and ghosts is a little crazy. Number 6 If You ever get the chance to govern again remember the 300 million people who You are charged with Governing not the 1% that really dont care anything about You or Your loved ones. You're a pawn in their game to get more wealth and power period nothing more nothing less. Number 7 Learn to be gracious and caring. If the pundits would tell them this instead of making excuses for these PIGS then maybe just maybe they will get the chance to govern again if they stay on the latest course then they can kiss their GOP ass goodbye. Geoff Rush Limbaugh, Fox News. Wallow in it. Or how about a little Dana? http://soundcloud.com/mike-in-raleigh/dana-loesch-flies" rel="nofollow - http://soundcloud.com/mike-in-raleigh/dana-loesch-flies |
Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 04:04
Gee, it's like you never talk about anything else. I will tell you something: Your fatalism is unwarranted. Yes, the debt is way too high, and yes, it needs to be reduced. But like with any problem, the more pressing it becomes, the more effort will be expended to solve it. The final result might not be nice, but I assure you that it will not involve the collapse of the US government.
You're ignoring one fundamental truth: People want to depend on the state. They'd much rather give up a few liberties that they would have never benefited from in the first place than they would give up their safety. Neither ultimate freedom nor ultimate dependency result in ultimate happiness.
I'm all for the ban of late-term abortions. But calling the abortion of, say, a five-week-old fetus the "slaughtering" of a "baby" has little to do with reality. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 04:23
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What are the specific differences between Obama's stance on abortion and Romneys? I know what Romney has said, but had he won what would he have actually done about it?? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 06:30
Even if our nation will exert more effort to solve problems as they become more severe, debt doesn't work that way, doesn't tolerate procrastination. Eventually there will be a critical mass and then it will be beyond our power. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Public_Debt_Ceiling_1981-2010.png" rel="nofollow - Eventually the staircase we are climbing becomes a sheer mountain . The Democratic Party is so popular because it promises more cookies for everyone, even though the cookie jar is empty and we must borrow flour and sugar and eggs from the neighborhood. Obama's plan to "ask the rich to pay a little more" (now that's a nice way to put it!) misses the point, and I wish liberals would take note of this. We are not redistributing wealth ("spreading the wealth around") as liberals would like to do. That is because there is no wealth to redistribute. Our mandatory spending consumes around 93% of our receipts. Almost one hundred percent of federal departments and programs that fall under discretionary spending exist only because of borrowed funds, not tax revenue. And when the sh*t hits the fan, it won't just be the US economy collapsing. http://www.greatreality.com/natdebt/DebtFAQ.htm#OweNothing" rel="nofollow - It will be a worldwide disaster. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 06:31
Ah, but political commentators can tell us what the women of this country want. Women can do what they want with their bodies. They cannot do anything they like to someone else's. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 08:24
People like blood-sports too. That doesn't make them civilized. -------------
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Posted By: zachfive
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 15:00
Facetiousness aside, the majority of people who voted against I-502 had a High school diploma or less, while the majority of those who voted for it had a High school diploma or a higher degree. I truly believe that I-502 is progress, just like the twenty-first amendment was progress.
If you consider a fetus to be "someone else" then you are wrong. Women who are pregnant can legally drink alcohol or smoke tobacco, they are just advised not to. Both activities will negatively affect the child, but no one can stop them from participating in those harmful activities. If you want to abolish abortion, then you may as well try to make it illegal for pregnant woman to consume/do anything that could harm the fetus/person/child/whatever. Hell make it illegal for people who have genetic ailments that will be passed on to their offspring to conceive. Now all scoffing aside, the GOP shouldn't reform their beliefs to conform to current stereotypes. Their is nothing wrong with voicing your opinion, even if the majority doesn't agree with you.The GOP should realize that their morals and values differ from the majority, and should ride their elephants to martyrdom with their heads held high. The one thing I can respect about republicans is that they stand up for what they believe, no matter how unpopular. Sure, this attitude wouldn't be conducive to winning elections, but they already ain't doing much of that.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 15:01
The rapey comments sunk Morlock and Aching. |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 15:10
Nice!  ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 15:31
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"Come on now you can go smoke weed. Your state has really advanced." Yes it has advanced and it is saying something which the rest of the country is also behind. Time to decriminalize marijuana. Quit ruining young lives with severe penalties. Let's think about this......what is worse for a young life, smoking marijuana or prison/criminal record?
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 15:55
Are you sure you wish to plumb the depths of my consistency? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 15:55
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I just don't know what the GOP is going to do in Obama's hellish 2016 nightmare. Damn shame they didn't get the John Carpenter's They Live vision of the future...
Anyway, as to their future, I'm thinking Whigs. |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 16:05
We're all going to be forced to become gay, muslim, zombie socialists. AAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 16:07
Somebody should tell that to all the multi-billionaires out there. Somehow they're doing pretty well for there being NO wealth to redistribute. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 16:08
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 16:10
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/07/opinion/friedman-hope-and-change-part-two.html?src=me&ref=general&_r=0" rel="nofollow - http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/07/opinion/friedman-hope-and-change-part-two.html?src=me&ref=general&_r=0
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 16:13
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I guess they should think about being a Government for everybody. Not just WASPS. Lets include the bees piders flys ants etc ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 16:19
*shudders* On an unrelated note, if I see one more person on FB say Johnson cost Romney the election, I'm going to reach through space-time and give them a dark matter bitch slap. If you gave all the third party votes to R-money he still would have lost. -------------
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 16:32
Romney and the fact that about 51% of the voting population are sane cost Romney the election. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 16:58
My opinion is that when your plan says that I am going to get rid of the Estate tax, and I am going to lower the top tax bracket from 35% to 25%, and I am going to lower Corporate taxes from 35% to 25% and Obama is a liar because my plan is not lowering the taxes for the wealthy, I really think that most people are going to be pretty sure that Romney is lying outside of at least one side of his mouth.
Romney also claimed that his plan would create 12 million new jobs. I read a study prior to the election that said that leading economists were projecting that the economy under Obama was projected to produce 12 million new jobs over the next 4 years. Now I am no genius, but if the leading economists were projecting that the economy under Obama would create 12 million new jobs, and Romney was claiming that his plan would result in 12 million new jobs, it kind of sounded like Romney wasn't going to do anything to improve upon what was already projected to happen.
Sadly it really isn't worth getting ones knickers all in knot over. In the end the people will be screwed both sides to nowhere no matter which political party is in charge.
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Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 17:10
That's because nobody can even say what will happen because they wouldn't be elected. We all know the reality: taxes go up, services go poof, economy weakens under the decrease in spending. That's what's going to happen because there just isn't any alternative. Mitt knows it, and that's why his plan was so insanely vague (but even then, he got busted on it for trying to please the idiots). Barack knows it and he'll be spending some time trying to convince the public not to panic when the list of cuts comes out. ------------- Hail Eris!
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 17:41
How many multibillionaires are there in the US? There are 132 if you are counting people with $3B or more net worth. Net worth includes assets, but says nothing directly of income. How do you propose to redistribute this wealth? Even if you wanted to liquidate assets and give the money to the "more deserving" poor, you do have to have someone with cash to buy them. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 17:46
The keyword being "eventually". If it will eventually be beyond our power, this means it's still in our power today.
Let me say it this way then: Your idea of a civilized society is at odds with the idea of most other people. A society that enforces total self-sufficiency would be just as wrong and useless as a society that enforces total dependence on the state. It is okay and necessary to let people depend on the state when they need it. Total freedom may be a noble goal, but what's the use if it doesn't make your life any better? |
Posted By: zachfive
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 17:47
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 17:57
My point was that there is wealth in this country. It's just tied up in the vast fortunes of the few. You wouldn't necessarily have to liquidate all assets. Some of them you could turn directly over to the more deserving poor. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 17:58
 The future of the GOP?  ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 18:09
How about using that money to create some good paying middle class jobs? Unfortunately, those jobs require certain skills.... How about promoting high tech, math and science in schools?
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 18:13
I never said there was not wealth in this country. I said that there was no wealth to redistribute. In context, that is true. Government has no wealth to redistribute. Instead, it distributes debt. Even if you took half of what all rich people had and gave it to the poor, you would have the same rich-poor dichotomy in perhaps fewer than two years. Most poor people cannot manage money and never will. They will spend what they get on goods and services, and their spending will benefit businessmen and their investors. In a short period of time, they will be poor again. They might have a bitchin' TV though. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 18:20
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Certainly does look bleak, especially given (excuse the cliche) our changing country. I mean hell, women voted 55% for Obama? IDK if its ever been that high but there's usually little to no real gap in gender. The fact it was that large shows how out of touch the GOP is now. However, they will not die. The country is too polarized. I see the 2 sides not gaining/losing ground just trying to ramp up how strong those regions are and keep battling over a few states. Why don't we just count votes in OH and FL and not even hold elections in the other 48? Also you guys really just need a good candidate. I believe Chris Christie has already been anointed savior. Oh and distance from the nutjobs. They can say what they want but some GOPers need to then come out and say "he's batsh*t insane". After 1964 many thought it was the legitimate end of the GOP and that never panned out. Of course I'd like to have more than 2 legitimate parties but lolz yeah right  |
Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 18:42
That's a ludicrous and offensive generalization. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 18:55
It isn't ludicrous, and I don't mind offending people. Managing wealth is like maintaining an automobile or keeping up a website. Some people have that skill, but most people don't and never will. Can you demonstrate that most poor people can manage wealth? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 19:10
You used to jump my s**t every time I made generalizations like that about the wealthy or about rednecks, but it's ok for you to do it, eh? Not only that, but we are required to prove the negative of your assertion to argue against it. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: zachfive
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 19:13
| I think that wealth and income are being used interchangeably by some people, when they are two different things. Poor people are often not given the chance to manage wealth because of their income, you could be the most frugal person in the world but with a low income it'd take more than a lifetime of saving to be considered "wealthy". Some poor people become instantly wealthy via gambling/lottery/inheritance, but not all of them piss it away - this would be an example of poor people managing wealth. Also remember that rich people are not always the best money managers, and managing money really only helps one maintain wealth, but income is the most common way that people can obtain wealth. I refer you again to the chart I linked in my earlier post. |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 19:15
Can you demonstrate that they can't? Nope. They don't have any wealth to manage because they're poor. The only group you could make any inference from are those who move from higher class to lower class, and while they outnumber those with upward class mobility, the reasons may have nothing to do with wealth management skills. ------------- Hail Eris!
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 19:16
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Yeah, those damn poor people, always spending all their money on such frivolities as rent and food and clothing for work, instead of living under a bridge, eating bugs and investing their money wisely.
------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 19:18
No, but the great thing is that I didn't claim to know whether or not most poor people can manage wealth. You on the other hand did, so I want to see some evidence. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 19:29
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Q: How do you get good at anything?
A: Practice.
Of course poor people can't manage something they've never had because they've never had any wealth to practice the art of managing it with. What they can manage is the megre amount of money they do have, but by no stretch can you call that wealth. Of course they'll spend any little surplus there is on luxuries, who wouldn't. Even rich buggers with more wealth than they know what to do with have "bitchin TVs" ...
------------- What? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 19:49
I usually give you statistics, but you ignore them. Thought I'd speak your language this time.
Thanks for answering your own question, but you are wrong. Dean answered for me.
People who have never driven a car also tend to suck at driving cars. Sorry. Maybe I need some statistics on that before people here believe me
Most poor people cannot manage wealth because most people cannot manage wealth. See above. Saying so is no more offensive than saying most people cannot fix a television set and keep it working. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: zachfive
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 19:52
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 19:53
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Most people couldn't make that there. See how offensive I am being? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 20:05
Actually, my statement was the negative. "Most poor people cannot manage wealth." If you would like to demonstrate the positive you are welcome to do so. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 20:06
Dean has data demonstrating that poor people cannot effectively manage wealth now, let alone with training? Perhaps I missed that. ------------- Hail Eris!
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Posted By: zachfive
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 20:08
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 20:11
Adding more variables can fix anything. I could be a star athlete later if only I had more training, right? I could be a wonderful actor if only I had the right training in the right place and with the right director to notice me, yeah? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 20:12
Would you like to actually join this conversation, or do you just want to use adjectives? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 20:21
First, you've still not shown anything demonstrating that wealthy people, no matter how much practice they have, are better money-managers than inexperienced poor. Second, you're a damn fool if you think anything is meaningful without controlling for obvious variables like experience. That's control for existing variables, not add new uncontrolled variables. Third, if you want to be really specific about it, you said "cannot manage money", which is flatly nonsense -- they are quite capable of doing so, whether effectively or not. So that's pretty well false, if you want to go just by what you've said. The alternative is a controlled, testable hypothesis: "The poor cannot manage money as well as wealthy people with equal levels of experience", which is a nice, easily-testable hypothesis for which you still have no data and which would generally not be helpful to your cause. ------------- Hail Eris!
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 20:31
I never said "Wealthy people are better money-managers than the poor." I said managing wealth is a skill like any other, and that most poor people do not have that skill and never will (because the poor are subset of our population and that most people do not have that skill and never will). I also believe I said "managing wealth" which is not the same as managing "money." Clearly, managing language and recognizing what other people actually say is an important skill some people lack...  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 20:41
I did not answer for you.
People who get the opportunity to practice driving a car will get better at it. This we know because there is a driving proficiency examination to test that. I imagine there could be a few gifted people who could learn to drive a car by watching rich folk being chauffeured around in limos, but I think they would qualify as being a statistical anomaly.
Poor people manage money everyday and if I were to make a rash generalisation I would say they could probably manage a budget far better than people who don't worry about where next month's rent is coming from. Of course some of them get into debt, and wealthy people get into debt too - it's just a matter of scale - and some of them do buy "bitchin TVs" when they have a few hundred bucks spare, just as a wealthy person would buy a Lamborghini or a second home when they have a few thousand bucks spare - it's just a matter of scale, not bad money management.
------------- What? |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 20:41
Oh, but it does. If people would try it, they would see that it does. I find the fact that my ideas are at odds with most other people a good indication that I am on the right track. -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 20:47
I never said poor people have the opportunity to practice managing wealth. I said poor people don't have the skills to manage wealth most of the time. There are a few people who have never tried but manage wealth very well. I never said that the poor cannot "manage money." I have been poor but have been good at managing mere money. I have never managed wealth. When some of you can use a damn dictionary, then maybe we can move forward. Hmm? monˇey/ˈmənē/
wealth/welTH/
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 20:50
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Most poor people are really bad at speaking French (unless they are from France.) OMG offensive! -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 20:52
Logan, most people are bad at speaking French! ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 20:54
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That's because French is a stupid language.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 21:05
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Evidently, we have a few participants here who think that most poor people can manage businesses, real estate, and investments. I bet the posters can't even do that. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 21:06
I know I can't, and I have a master's degree. -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 21:09
I've fed a family of four on $21 a week and no welfare, but I don't think I can manage real estate and deal with governmental regulations regarding employment and so forth, ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 21:33
| ^Bull.......21 divided by 7=3 dollars a day for 4 people = 75 cents a day per person |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 21:34
Isn't Wal-Mart a wonderful thing? -------------
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 21:36
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^bull |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 21:37
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Last time I was in Wal-Mart (admittedly a few years ago) they had big boxes of macaroni and cheese for 30 cents each. It doesn't seem far fetched to me.
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 21:48
| wealth...........that which satisfies human needs and wants of utility..........so they managed their wealth very good evidently |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 22:00
No, that's a fair challenge. $21. We would buy cabbage. Pasta (cheap and filling). Grits (lasted the month). Flour (I made cakes with flour and water). Beans Rice Eggs Cheese All of this was around $15. That left money for things like squash or eggplant. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 22:07
| So you managed your wealth but it looks weak on nutrition. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 22:08
| %20" rel="nofollow - http://soundcloud.com/mike-in-raleigh/romnocity |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 22:09
We were healthy and are healthy now. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 22:12
| Well i won't derail the thread on nutrition arguments back to those pesky Republicrats. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 22:15
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I don't believe in nutrition. I've never eaten nutritious and I'm the healthiest person I know.
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 22:17
| Good for you^ |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 22:19
You look deathly thin in that robe ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 22:21
| ^lol |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 22:39
You're absolutely right. You didn't. You say they cannot manage money, which is demonstrably false. They aren't permitted to do so, but they can do it. If you take it as "they cannot do so well", which was implied, then there has to be a yardstick by which "well" is measured. The only sensible counterpart is the wealthy. This is not complicated.
No, you said nothing about that. You're adopting Dean's justification as your own. You said that:
No mention of practice or skill development. In fact, "never will" very specifically says it's not a skill but an innate trait.
You actually said money in the original comment, as I quoted above. Perhaps you should go back and read it. It's absolutely f**king stupid that I have to be pointing out to you what you actually said when you could have avoided this by clicking one button before you spout off.  ------------- Hail Eris!
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 22:46
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The point is equal opportunity. Enforced equality is fugtarded and always leads to Voivod's debut. But equal opportunity/access or to go all TJ on you guys, the pursuit of happiness, is an inalienable right. And if you think a kid born on the streets of Harlem has the same chance as a Ivy League banker's son, you've deluded yourself there quite muchly. But just because of that, that doesn't mean we should punish other people for his misfortune, neither should we employ reverse bigotry. The solution is more complicated and iterative than that and requires a whole lot of trial and error and a lot less of quoting party lines, rhetoric, manifestos, etc. Because as much as you try to shove reality into the box of someones pretty little ideal, it's not going to fit. Just to be clear this rant is not directed at anyone other than the Republican and Democratic leadership, whose heads are so far up their asses that they recursively breathe. -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 09 2012 at 02:22
I can even provide http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=90496&PID=4656553#4656553" rel="nofollow - a link to the post where you said it if you so desire.
Now, I fully admit that you may have intended to use the word "wealth" in that sentence, but I cannot read minds.
Now as to my ability to understand the difference between Money and Wealth may I request that you employ your skills as an educator to grade my usage of the words in the following quote from my earlier post:
And while were at it perhaps you can tell me whether this following quote:
in any way can infer the following:
I know I can and do. What I don't do is gamble and make bets.
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Posted By: HarbouringTheSoul
Date Posted: November 09 2012 at 03:35
Let's see: In a totally free society, health insurance companies wouldn't have to insure people with pre-existing conditions. Now does that make life better or worse for those people?
Hm, with that logic you could justify a belief that murder should be legal. The fact that you are at odds with most other people doesn't make you wrong, but it doesn't make you right either. What it does mean is that you will never get to see your hypothetical society. |