A King Crimson poll
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics related to progressive music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=97274
Printed Date: August 23 2025 at 20:13
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: A King Crimson poll
Posted By: BaldJean
Subject: A King Crimson poll
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 11:45
|
the question should be clear. now vote! -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Replies:
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 11:48
|
"Up to (and including) "Red" - is THE Crimson Era.
Imo. |
Posted By: Neo-Romantic
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 11:49
If an option has Red in it, every other option is already at a significant disadvantage. 
|
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 11:53
|
Up to & including Red. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 11:56
|
I like both equally well
------------- This night wounds time. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 11:57
| Discipline alone can't top the '69-'74 period. |
Posted By: The-time-is-now
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 11:59
-------------  One of my best achievements in life was to find this picture :D |
ole-the-first wrote:Posted By: FPC Greg
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 12:01
| Up to and including 'Red' |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 12:02
| I like the Discipline period but not up today---just those 3 albums---and the earlier period is hit or miss for me--lot's great some annoying. |
Posted By: Xonty
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 12:06
Easily the 70s (+'69) era  I only own Discipline from the other one, but everything except SABB (while I really need to buy!) up until Red 
|
Posted By: Earthmover
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 12:16
|
both eras are absolutely amazing but i simply prefer the earlier stuff (not by much though)
-------------  |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 12:16
|
up to and including red if it was just the 80s vs 69-74, then it might be another story ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">  The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 12:17
|
I'll go early as well. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 12:23
|
Love that band. ------------- |
Posted By: bloodnarfer
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 12:48
|
Like both a lot! But not equally...
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ramza1316" rel="nofollow - www.last.fm/user/ramza1316 https://open.spotify.com/user/1211221845" rel="nofollow - https://open.spotify.com/user/1211221845 |
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 12:52
|
Wouldn't like to choose one over the other, so I guess I like both about equally. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 12:58
|
Up to, stopping just short of, then revving up again and driving straight through Red, then doing a U-turn and hitting the gas station.
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: jacek1969
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 13:15
|
I like both equally well
------------- Call any vegetable And the chances are good That a vegetable will respond to you |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 13:23
| Both equally. |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 13:29
|
for me it is a mixed bag. I like "Thrak" better than some of the old albums ("Starless and Bible Black", "Islands" and "In the Wake of Poseidon") and "Discipline" at least better than "Islands". I like "Lizard " best though, followed by "Red" ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 13:40
|
Sure the "Up to Red" era came first and helped launch a whole new realm of music. That aside, I like the 80's albums just as much as I enjoy those from the "Up to Red" time period. They each have certain styles I find enjoyable, and I don't think I could pick a favorite. And that's not even considering what came in the 90's and later. ------------- Want to play mafia? Visit http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com" rel="nofollow - here . |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 13:40
|
Up to Red easily, I really like the rest but through 74 is definitive ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 13:57
|
Go Belew go! About both equally actually. If the question is solely about studio albums I'll go with the option Discipline till now. Live is another matter, there's not much in live rock that matches KC 73-74 for me. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 14:22
|
'I don't care' as their are only two KC albums that I really love Red & Power To Believe KC are/were a patchy band imo.
|
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 14:24
|
I like..... no strike that, love both, though not equally Sharks' Tongues and Jizzard are among the finest prog rock albums ever made. I've also warmed up to the debut and am playing it much more these days. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 14:26
|
I got into KC through the ProjeKcts and their 1990s material in general rather than their 1960s/1970s output, so I've always been able to value both on their own premises. To be frank I'm not that up to snuff with what they recorded in the 1980s beyond Discipline. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 15:19
| The first half, easily. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 15:57
|
The period with Islands and In the Wake of Poseidon as highlights. ------------- 
|
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 16:15
|
Guldbamsen: I like..... no strike that, love both, though not equally  Sharks' Tongues and Jizzard are among the finest prog rock albums ever made. I've also warmed up to the debut and am playing it much more these days. ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 16:25
|
As far as I'm concerned it's not even a fair fight. The first run of albums they did(I call it the Brady Bunch years because they went from 69-74 which is exactly when the tv show the Brady Bunch was originally on ) is among the best run of albums in the whole history of prog.
|
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 16:38
That's right, you don't like Crimson. So what else is new? ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 16:47
I do like KC(I just dont' think they are the best thing since sliced bread) but the way you present things is really bad I mean what's with Sharks' Tomgues and Jizzard ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 16:50
|
You don't have sense of humour in Riverside? ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 16:51
It's really not that funny though ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 16:55
Ok so don't laugh  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 16:57
Nobody is laughing ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 16:59
|
Whatevs Porkmetaller.
Edit: So after this thrilling little debate instigated by Jorge, I think we all now can get back to the poll. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 17:36
Spot on! ... And I know this from IMDb.com.
|
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 17:41
|
I know of a few folks on here who think of Islands as their finest album. I am really digging it at the moment, although it took me quite a while to get into Formentera Lady. Anyone had the same problem with that opening cut? ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 17:47
How exactly do you know that? I laughed. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 17:48
Damn that tough. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 18:02
|
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 18:05
Maybe it'll come to you, like it did me  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: genbanks
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 18:24
| In fact, the only album I really enjoy completely of KC is the debut one. I guess that I prefer the times with Sinfield there. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 19:33
| ^ There could be other things that have influenced your opinion ... like the psychedelia of Fripp's solo on "Schizoid Man", no stabs at a "heavy-metallic" sound, etc. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: February 24 2014 at 19:46
I like both nearly equally well, but voted for the first option.
Naw, Ladies of the Road is the one that took me the longest to get into. And yes, Islands is my favourite KC album. |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 02:50
|
'73 - ' 83 and then not forgetting all 90s to 2000 Crim including (for me especially) his (their) work with David Sylvian. I know the genre breakdown is usually understood due to KC and their fades from scenes but I find the musical development to be more appropriate - the more guitar orientation progression. The focus away from jazz and classical to the most pure (non blues) based or oriented rock ever. With the above break down it has to be both. But if it was from Larks onward then that. Gotta have Starless some hell or low or high water... |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 03:40
|
I've not heard Thrak or Power to Believ so wont vote.
I'm still getting my head round the early 80's 'perfect pair' trio of albums. So far I would say I prefer that earlier era up to and including Red, although Starless & Bible Black is relatively weak. There are tracks on the 80's trio that I love and some that completely turn me off.. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 03:58
I agree, but very much loved most albums Belew sang on ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 04:03
The first magnificent seven 
|
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 06:08
I happen to agree that Thrak is much better than some of the more celebrated earlier Crimson albums (and with more sympathetic production, the material on the Construktion of Light would have been able to shine a damn sight brighter).The problem with the poll is that we are asked to treat everything up to Red as if it were but one artistic phase of the band which is of course palpably false e.g. you cannot overestimate the quantum leap represented by Larks Tongues in Aspic with what preceded it. King Crimson it seems, are very often the victims of their own versatility and eclecticism. I like the debut, loathe Poseidon , think Lizard decent and consider Islands very patchy. The Fripp, Cross, Wetton, Bruford/Muir lineup which recorded Larks, Starless and Bible Black and Red are the only rock band who have ever existed capable of improvisation at a level of sustained brilliance on a par with that of the celebrated jazz giants like Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Thelonius Monk et al but who still played rock ------------- 
|
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 10:58
I question that. some of the line-ups of Guru Guru (just listen to their live 78 album) or the short-lived band of Roman Bunka (Dein Kopf ist ein schlafendes Auto) would easily be their matches, not to mention several line-ups of Embryo (they even had several jazz musicians lining up with them). and I am more than certain they are not the only ones ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 16:43
Yay!! back to the poll
 ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: genbanks
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 17:50
Yes, that's true, Sinfield is just a reference. The point is maybe the more melodyc or simphonyc approach or something like this. By the way the debut album is far better than the other ones with Sinfield too, for me. The tracks that I really enjoy there are the title one and Epitaph.
|
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 17:55
|
I think Schizoid Man is incredibly heavy, especially for 69. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 18:10
|
I have never been able to get thru Power To Believe. I think I've just maxed out on Belew Crimson. I love the 80s albums, and I'm a pretty good fan of Belew solo, but something in me just isn't receptive to hearing one more Belew Crim album. That's my problem, and I'm living with it.
Favorites: Larks/Red, Poseidon/Jizzard (ha ha!), and 3 of a Perfect Pair ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 18:50
I laughed, it reminded me of the bands live improv Sharks Lungs in Lemsip. Voted pre-74, though I don't like Lizard and Starles and Bible Black is a bit hit and miss for me they were far more consistent then than they have been since, with only Discipline, Thrak and The Construktion of Light really grabbing me. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
|
Posted By: proggman
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 19:21
|
Up to (and including) Red.
------------- When he rides, my fears subside. For darkness turns once more to light. Through the skies, his white horse flies. To find a land beyond the night. |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 19:48
| I'm a fan of KC, Lizard— Thrak. Don't really like the other four albums. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 22:59
|
Posted By: Wanorak
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 23:11
|
1969-1975, but I like the later stuff as well. ------------- A GREAT YEAR FOR PROG!!! |
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: February 25 2014 at 23:36
|
Went with the first option. ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 26 2014 at 02:51
Perhaps I expressed that clumsily, and shouldn't have named individual jazzers but ensembles instead. What I really mean is that Crimson manged to achieve what Colognians Can strove for but seldom attained i.e. spontaneous composition between all four individuals where the structure and form is only revealed at the point of creation and where there is no single dominating solo voice but a perfectly bartered synergy between the players etc Of course nobody fills entire albums full of such sublimely inspired moments as these but Crimson were 'in the zone' more than most for my money e.g. We'll Let You Know - The Mincer - Starless and Bible Black - (and also many other improvs from the Great Deceiver live boxed set) I enjoyed the Dein Kopf ist ein schlafendes Auto tracks you posted and thought them very original although I could hear referential influences from Hendrix, Crimson, Taste, Guru Guru, psychedelia, Steve Hillage and many others. However it struck me this was a trio that adopted the approach of Cream who were brilliant improvisers over a given pre existing form (in Cream's case the blues) or a relatively static harmonic pivot (Miles rock fusion work) I've always found Embryo a bit noodley and rambling but that's just my taste and yes, it's my loss  -------------
|
Posted By: Imperial Zeppelin
Date Posted: February 26 2014 at 03:23
| I love them both, but their 69-74 work is much better |
Posted By: The Bearded Bard
Date Posted: February 28 2014 at 18:57
Exactly this!
"The Power to Believe" is excellent though. On level with most of what they did in the '70's, IMO. -------------  
|
Posted By: Kentucky_Hawkwindage
Date Posted: March 01 2014 at 16:01
| Voted for Up To And In including Red without hesitation |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: March 02 2014 at 22:32
| Mixed bag. I like the first era best probably except that I don't like Islands at all and I don't care for most of Red. Discipline is just right under Lark's Tongue for me. Thrak is nice too, far better than Vroom. I had other more recent Crimson for quite some time, but haven't gotten around to listening to it yet, believe it or not. |
Posted By: Mirror Image
Date Posted: May 05 2014 at 11:57
|
Easy vote for me: 'Up to and including Red'. I do like their 80s albums and Thrak from the 90s, but I don't think any of these albums can match the individualism, originality, and sheer power of the 70s Crimson.
------------- “Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov |
Posted By: Dr. Occulator
Date Posted: May 05 2014 at 17:07
|
I actually thought this was a joke. Seriously? ------------- My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head. |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: May 05 2014 at 17:14
|
Nobody could have predicted the results. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Neo-Romantic
Date Posted: May 05 2014 at 17:48
I'm in agreement there! TPtB is an excellent album, and I have no reservation recommending it alongside the others from their previous inceptions. I like it better than Court, actually. ------------- May God bless you all in Jesus' name. No matter who you are, you're special, you're loved, and you matter. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 06 2014 at 04:18
|
The Power to Believe and Thrak are both excellent albums and up there with much of what they released up to and including Red imo. The 80's period is the weakest but does include some gems.
I've a lot of respect for KC. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: May 06 2014 at 04:35
|
The question is clear. Both. Everything. And including the Sylvian Fripp era. |
Posted By: Ruby900
Date Posted: May 06 2014 at 06:25
|
As much like the '80s trilogy, the albums up to Red are where the real quality is, the essence of the band.
------------- "I always say that it’s about breaking the rules. But the secret of breaking rules in a way that works is understanding what the rules are in the first place". Rick Wakeman |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: May 16 2014 at 06:38
|
Up to Red the Crims were an unstoppable tyrant! Then it went pear shaped i am afraid. ------------- 
|
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 16 2014 at 07:09
Ok, I'm jumping back on board this thread now I've explored Thrak, Power to Believe, Beat and TOAPP fully. I would have to disagree that they were a patchy band. If anything I would say they were one of the most consistently good prog bands. Their 80's output craps over that of Genesis and most 80's Yes imo. Only Construktion of Light and Starless and Bible black have parts that leave me cold. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Prog 74
Date Posted: May 16 2014 at 08:15
| 69-74 hands down |
Posted By: Undercover Man
Date Posted: May 16 2014 at 17:39
| Up to and including Red |
Posted By: John McIntyre
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 14:23
|
Up to and including RED, plus USA, plus The Night Watch, plus The Great Deceiver. Having said that, there are a few bits 'n' pieces of the 80s & 90s I like, such as the THRAK and B'Boom albums, Waiting Man from the Absent Lovers set and Sleepless from 3OAPP. The Construction of Light and Power to Believe are unlistenable. Not heard Scarcity of Miracles or anything immediately before & after that. ------------- I am one of only about 1,800 people in the world with an original M400 Mellotron! |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 05 2014 at 15:03
Crimson made albums after Red?  Oh, go on!------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 02:14
|
It is not a surprise that 69-74 KC is winning because it is miles ahead of everything they ever did and ever will do and even at that they were not that great anyway ------------- “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.” ― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four "Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 10:41
| How can you follow the first period? And Red was vital and warm-blooded while Discipline was distant and cold. All hail RED!! |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 10:55
100% Agree.
|
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 11:02
|
Very interesting result: 81+6+17 = 104 KC's fans vs 1+2 = 3 others. Very clear result specially for "Funny Guys". 104 vs 3 Thanks and Respect to Progressive Music fans. Great shot guys.
|
Posted By: Michael678
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 14:02
|
for now, its the 70's, but i want to look into more of their music by era. though i do like the song "Three of a Perfect Pair" and the album The Power to Believe is pretty good, but not one of my favorites of theirs. oh, and happy 40th birthday to Red!!!!! ------------- Progrockdude |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: October 06 2014 at 15:16
| Up to and excluding Red, excluding Islands too. From Discipline onward excluding Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair. I like Thrak, but not so much Vroom. I love Space Groove. |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: October 08 2014 at 04:58
|
Red, Discipline era, ITCOTCK, S and BB. Larks, Thrak, USA. Most of the rest I enjoy and respect KC were always on such a precipice per album. Earthbound anyone? On paper it looks a fine album, until I hear it. The 80s trio with Absent Lovers (absolute classic) finishing that era off was the business. Belew's guitar contributions alone... Fripp had a good band (!) and could really establish with this structure a great compositional statement for the length of time it was required, 3 volumes. T Lev's Chapman Stick writing and playing was and is mindblowing. The detail and rhythmic density was unmatched. No wonder KC were in demand as session guys for Zappa, Bowie and Peter Gabriel and others. Then they went to the pinnacle - the double trio era. Not sure they achieved the compositional consistency of the '80s era but the growth in performance was even more so, if possible. And around this time (mid 90s) was Steve Hackett's band with the odd KC alumnus turning up. Now this was what Asia and GTR etc should have been - song oriented but not limited. |