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Are ITCOTCK symphonic influences overlooked?

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Topic: Are ITCOTCK symphonic influences overlooked?

Posted By: SteveG
Subject: Are ITCOTCK symphonic influences overlooked?
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 15:31

Some people view king Crimson's 1969 album In The Court Of The Crimson King in isolation as just another early experimental Prog album without serious influence on other albums of it's era. I would like to contend that ITCOCK's symphonic based songs Epitaph and the album's title track were influential on later symphonic and classically based Prog groups such as Yes and ELP that developed or formed a few years later then ITCOCK. Many would probably point to the Moody Blues 1967 album Nights In White Satin as the obvious symphonic influence for late 60's pop and rock albums, but I disagree as it seems that the Moody Blues NIWS influenced relatively few including the Moody Blues themselves, as they quickly eschewed their own symphonic sound in favor of psychedelic/pop on their following 1968 album In Seach Of the Lost Chord which featured odes to transcendence, LSD and Timothy Leary. In 1969, Yes was an embryonic psychedelic/folk rock group that would later morph into the classic 1972 Close To The Edge classical suite movements Prog rock group that we all celebrated. But who was the first to feature symphonic suite like movements in Prog songs? And when ELP were thinking of forming, who demonstrated that a song with classical themes and motifs could in it self be a successful Prog song? And, more over, a successful popular music song? I again contend that it was KC with ITCOTCK. I once heard someone refer to something as a 'Mellotron strum', which was simply Genesis playing acoustic guitar arpeggios over mellotron chords or notes. Again, this is another motif found on ITCOTCK. This is not my entire argument, but I hope it's enough to make people re-evaluate ITCOTCK's role in early symphonic Prog rock.

Replies:

Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 15:40

SteveG wrote:

Most people view king Crimson's 1969 album In The Court Of The Crimson King in isolation as just another early experimental Prog album without serious influence on other albums of it's era.

Wrong. Most people (who cares about these things) think of it as the first true progressive rock album and the most inluential.

Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 15:56

Saperlipopette! wrote:

Wrong. Most people (who cares about these things) think of it as the first true progressive rock album and the most inluential.

Yes, quite correct. We have had (endless, terminally dull) arguments about this on PA, but most people would hold with your statement.

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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 16:08

lazland wrote:

Saperlipopette! wrote:

Wrong. Most people (who cares about these things) think of it as the first true progressive rock album and the most inluential.

Yes, quite correct. We have had (endless, terminally dull) arguments about this on PA, but most people would hold with your statement.

I provoked two responses without explanations. *sigh*

Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 16:15

There's nothing to explain. Its not overlooked. Not at all. Its considered the beginning of it all. Symphonic Prog inluded.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 16:18

Saperlipopette! wrote:

There's nothing to explain. Its not overlooked. Not at all. Its considered the beginning of it all. Symphonic Prog inluded.

Thank you for clarifying your statement. It works much better that way.

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 16:41

Q: Are ITCOTCK symphonic influences overlooked?

A: No.

what more is there to say? Confused

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What?

Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 16:44

Overlooked??? not at all, everybody considers it as the birth of Prog.

But the actual beginning was The Nice. OK they did not have a guitar so Robert Fripp's vision of what music should be like had to be different, he was a guitarist, but The Nice started Prog as we know it.

Posted By: Xonty
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 16:47

If anything, it's overrated by prog fans. It was definitely influential, but when people say it was the first real prog album, I think they overlook all of these other great 60s albums like DoFP (plus the next Moodies album), Shine On Brightly (and Procol's debut), Arthur Brown, Nice, Soft Machine, Pink Floyd, etc. Most of these were also important (although not as much as ITCOTCK) to all the classic 70s prog acts, but personally I don't know much about what they were influenced by, other than King Crimson.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 16:51

Dean wrote:

Q: Are ITCOTCK symphonic influences overlooked?

A: No.

what more is there to say? Confused

Dean, being that you actually answered my question with a straight forward answer, there is now no more to say.

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 16:55

SteveG wrote:

Dean wrote:

Q: Are ITCOTCK symphonic influences overlooked?

A: No.

what more is there to say? Confused

Dean, being that you actually answered my question with a straight forward answer, there is now no more to say.

It seems that people are still saying a lot, except they've missed the point of your question and answering a completely different one. That happens a lot around here. Wait to Pedro chips in.

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What?

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 16:57

Xonty wrote:

If anything, it's overrated by prog fans. It was definitely influential, but when people say it was the first real prog album, I think they overlook all of these other great 60s albums like DoFP (plus the next Moodies album), Shine On Brightly (and Procol's debut), Arthur Brown, Nice, Soft Machine, Pink Floyd, etc. Most of these were also important (although not as much as ITCOTCK) to all the classic 70s prog acts, but personally I don't know much about what they were influenced by, other than King Crimson.

I think where the 'first real' prog album comes in is always the kicker for us and it's probably a discussion that could go on for days! Only someone like Dean has probably been involved in one like that up to that level.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 17:14

Dean, BTW who's Pedro?

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 17:22

Gerinski wrote:

Overlooked??? not at all, everybody considers it as the birth of Prog.

At bit off the mark as The Nice were progressive with a jazz edge and very different from KC. And far from commercially successful, again, very different from KC.

Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 17:24

Dean wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Dean wrote:

Q: Are ITCOTCK symphonic influences overlooked?

A: No.

what more is there to say? Confused

Dean, being that you actually answered my question with a straight forward answer, there is now no more to say.

It seems that people are still saying a lot, except they've missed the point of your question and answering a completely different one. That happens a lot around here. Wait to Pedro chips in.

Before answering the question I simply had to respond to the opening sentence. Does anyone even slightly interested in prog view ITCOTCK as "just another early experimental prog album"? I don't think so. Although its a five star classic in my book its more likely that it overshadows other influential albums of the early era than it being overlooked.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 17:33

Saperlipopette! wrote:

Dean wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Dean wrote:

Q: Are ITCOTCK symphonic influences overlooked?

A: No.

what more is there to say? Confused

Dean, being that you actually answered my question with a straight forward answer, there is now no more to say.

It seems that people are still saying a lot, except they've missed the point of your question and answering a completely different one. That happens a lot around here. Wait to Pedro chips in.

Fair enough. It's my subjective views that always get me in trouble, so I'll change my posting.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 17:35

^Does that work for the sake the discussion and redirect the question back to that of symphonic influence?

Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 17:41

Dean wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Dean wrote:

Q: Are ITCOTCK symphonic influences overlooked?

A: No.

what more is there to say? Confused

Dean, being that you actually answered my question with a straight forward answer, there is now no more to say.

It seems that people are still saying a lot, except they've missed the point of your question and answering a completely different one. That happens a lot around here. Wait to Pedro chips in.

i'll start the popcorn

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My other avatar is a Porsche

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.

-Kehlog Albran

Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 17:46

SteveG wrote:

^Does that work for the sake the discussion and redirect the question back that of symphonic influence?

Fine by me. Although I dont understand who these people are or why they would claim such things. But I do know that they're outnumbered by the general consensus here and most other places where such things are discussed.

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 17:47

SteveG wrote:

Dean, BTW who's Pedro?

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What?

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 30 2014 at 17:49

Saperlipopette! wrote:

[QUOTE=SteveG] ^Does that work for the sake the discussion and redirect the question back that of symphonic influence?

[/QUOTEI I said it was my subjective view...oh never mind LOL

Besides, I've got save my strength for Pedro.

Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 01 2014 at 01:31

Saperlipopette! wrote:

There's nothing to explain. Its not overlooked. Not at all. Its considered the beginning of it all. Symphonic Prog inluded.

not really as The Nice recorded Ars Longa Vita Brevis a year earlier and are regarded as full blown Symphonic prog.

Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: July 01 2014 at 02:01

richardh wrote:

Saperlipopette! wrote:

There's nothing to explain. Its not overlooked. Not at all. Its considered the beginning of it all. Symphonic Prog inluded.

not really as The Nice recorded Ars Longa Vita Brevis a year earlier and are regarded as full blown Symphonic prog.

Full blown maybe but primitive and not nearly as influential soundwise. Right or wrong KC's debut is generally considered a beginning (although we all know its not about just one album) and I think I covered it when I wrote this:

[QUOTE=Saperlipopette!]

Before answering the question I simply had to respond to the opening sentence. Does anyone even slightly interested in prog view ITCOTCK as "just another early experimental prog album"? I don't think so. Although its a five star classic in my book its more likely that it overshadows other influential albums of the early era than it being overlooked.

[/QUOTE]

The influence of the symphonic approach of Epitaph and title track of ITCOTCK is still beyond compare.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 01 2014 at 08:35

Saperlipopette! wrote:

richardh wrote:

Saperlipopette! wrote:

There's nothing to explain. Its not overlooked. Not at all. Its considered the beginning of it all. Symphonic Prog inluded.

not really as The Nice recorded Ars Longa Vita Brevis a year earlier and are regarded as full blown Symphonic prog.

[QUOTE=Saperlipopette!]

Before answering the question I simply had to respond to the opening sentence. Does anyone even slightly interested in prog view ITCOTCK as "just another early experimental prog album"? I don't think so. Although its a five star classic in my book its more likely that it overshadows other influential albums of the early era than it being overlooked.

[/QUOTE]

The influence of the symphonic approach of Epitaph and title track of ITCOTCK is still beyond compare.

I have to agree with you Richard as Ars longa Vita Brevis came first but was far from influential.

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 01 2014 at 09:14

SteveG wrote:

Saperlipopette! wrote:

richardh wrote:

Saperlipopette! wrote:

There's nothing to explain. Its not overlooked. Not at all. Its considered the beginning of it all. Symphonic Prog inluded.

not really as The Nice recorded Ars Longa Vita Brevis a year earlier and are regarded as full blown Symphonic prog.

Saperlipopette! wrote:

Before answering the question I simply had to respond to the opening sentence. Does anyone even slightly interested in prog view ITCOTCK as "just another early experimental prog album"? I don't think so. Although its a five star classic in my book its more likely that it overshadows other influential albums of the early era than it being overlooked.

[/QUOTE]

The influence of the symphonic approach of Epitaph and title track of ITCOTCK is still beyond compare.

I have to agree with you Richard as Ars longa Vita Brevis came first but was far from influential.

There are a number of albums and artists that laid the ground-work for "Symphonic Prog" The Nice was most certainly a very important one and you could also cite the Barque Pop of Procol Harum and The Moody Blues and the orchestral-layered foundations of bands like Family as having a significant influence but these in isolation do not bring us to the state of Symphonic Progressive Rock that hit its peak in the early 70s. For that we have to look to bands that approached the classical music inspired side of Prog from the opposite direction as it where - from the instrument side rather than the music side - and with that I mean predominately keyboards (Hammond, Mellotron & Synth).

These players did not take classical music and shoe-horn it into rock, they made rock music sound orchestral, this is why Symphonic Prog can never produce a Symphony ... and this is the difference between Emerson (music side) and Tony Banks (instrument side) and Rick Wakeman (music side) and Tony Kaye (instrument side). Ian MacDonald on ITCotCK is from the instrument side - he didn't infuse ITCotCK with vast swathes of classical music like you get in Ars Longa Vita Brevis, or load it with neat little classical-sounding flurries and fills like Wakeman - he made rock music sound orchestral - and that is what Kaye and Banks did.

The reason why I (and others) have been a little flippant with this question is that here at the PA we have long recognised the symphonic nature of ITCotCK, as any one reading the http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=4" rel="nofollow - Genre Description on the Symphonic Prog page will know:

Symphonic Prog definition

Symphonic is without doubt the sub-genre that includes the most bands in Progressive Rock because for many people it's almost synonymous classic Prog, something easy to understand being that most of the classic and/or pioneer bands released music that could be included in this sub-genre, except JETHRO TULL and PINK FLOYD (who still blended some symphonic elements), even KING CRIMSON who very soon expanded their horizons to more experimental music, made their debut with a Symphonic album, "In the Court of the Crimson King" which is a cornerstone in the development of the genre.

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What?

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 01 2014 at 10:16

Dean wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Saperlipopette! wrote:

richardh wrote:

Saperlipopette! wrote:

There's nothing to explain. Its not overlooked. Not at all. Its considered the beginning of it all. Symphonic Prog inluded.

not really as The Nice recorded Ars Longa Vita Brevis a year earlier and are regarded as full blown Symphonic prog.

Saperlipopette! wrote:

Before answering the question I simply had to respond to the opening sentence. Does anyone even slightly interested in prog view ITCOTCK as "just another early experimental prog album"? I don't think so. Although its a five star classic in my book its more likely that it overshadows other influential albums of the early era than it being overlooked.

[/QUOTE]

The influence of the symphonic approach of Epitaph and title track of ITCOTCK is still beyond compare.

I have to agree with you Richard as Ars longa Vita Brevis came first but was far from influential.

These players did not take classical music and shoe-horn it into rock, they made rock music sound orchestral, this is why Symphonic Prog can never produce a Symphony ... and this is the difference between Emerson (music side) and Tony Banks (instrument side) and Rick Wakeman (music side) and Tony Kaye (instrument side). Ian MacDonald on ITCotCK is from the instrument side - he didn't infuse ITCotCK with vast swathes of classical music like you get in Ars Longa Vita Brevis, or load it with neat little classical-sounding flurries and fills like Wakeman - he made rock music sound orchestral - and that is what Kaye and Banks did.

Symphonic Prog definition

Symphonic is without doubt the sub-genre that includes the most bands in Progressive Rock because for many people it's almost synonymous classic Prog, something easy to understand being that most of the classic and/or pioneer bands released music that could be included in this sub-genre, except JETHRO TULL and PINK FLOYD (who still blended some symphonic elements), even KING CRIMSON who very soon expanded their horizons to more experimental music, made their debut with a Symphonic album, "In the Court of the Crimson King" which is a cornerstone in the development of the genre.

Your points about varied symphonic infleuences are right on and were well taken Dean. However, I've always personally felt to some degree that ITCotCK has largly been paid lip service and was always put forward on strickly accademic grounds with no real thought in mind in regards to how it actually influenced the other bands and their music. Having been on the receiving end of many arguments where Saints Wakeman and Emerson (and their respective bands) were said to have been able to evolve just fine without ITCotCK and that keyboard based Prog would have evolved quite well without MacDonald and his Mellotron (thank you very much), I've always felt a strong degree of caution when people wax poetic about the album as high regard for the album is quickly tossed out the window to bolster arguments for that of other bands originality. However, as this is not germane to the topic, I've put aside my usual degree of caution and I'm taking all comments at face valve.

Posted By: Michael678
Date Posted: July 01 2014 at 12:06

id go with that due to dat damn MELLOTRON!!

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Progrockdude

Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 01 2014 at 15:13

Saperlipopette! wrote:

richardh wrote:

Saperlipopette! wrote:

There's nothing to explain. Its not overlooked. Not at all. Its considered the beginning of it all. Symphonic Prog inluded.

not really as The Nice recorded Ars Longa Vita Brevis a year earlier and are regarded as full blown Symphonic prog.

[QUOTE=Saperlipopette!]

Before answering the question I simply had to respond to the opening sentence. Does anyone even slightly interested in prog view ITCOTCK as "just another early experimental prog album"? I don't think so. Although its a five star classic in my book its more likely that it overshadows other influential albums of the early era than it being overlooked.

[/QUOTE]

The influence of the symphonic approach of Epitaph and title track of ITCOTCK is still beyond compare.

I've always believed that the importance of ITCOTCK was down its diversity and the willingness to embrace all sorts of things musically. Of course it was way better than Ars Long Vita Brevis (Emerson thought the production on that Nice album was not so nice) but to be fair The Nice were a very influential band in general inspiring both Genesis and Deep Purple in their early days. However that Crimson album certainly laid down a marker and also something of a challenge to those that followed.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 01 2014 at 15:23

^As my background is more from the business side of music I may unjustly put too much on the fact that ITCOTCK was commercially successful and that is also part of it's influential status. However, I can't imagine someone like Ahmet Ertegun from Atlantic records backing Yes or ELP without ITCOTCK making some bucks when it was released. I feel that musical influence alone is not the only key to the album's importance. Something that The Nice and other early groups can't claim.

Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 01 2014 at 15:51

SteveG wrote:

^As my background is more from the business side of music I may unjustly put too much on the fact that ITCOTCK was commercially successful and that is also part of it's influential status. However, I can't imagine someone like Ehmet Ertegen from Atlantic records backing Yes or ELP without ITCOTCK making some bucks when it was released. I feel that musical influence alone is not the only key to the album's importance. Something that The Nice and other early groups can't claim.

I can't really argue with that although The Nice were beginning to make inroads into America (thanks to their instrumental hit of the same name) but admittedly it was a slow process. After King Crimson the door was well and truly battered down and others followed as record companies presumably scrambled around signing every experimental band going. Exciting times for sure but going back to the music the likes of Dave Greenslade and Keith Emerson showed they were well capable of creating their own symphonic rock music without reference to KC.

Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 01 2014 at 15:51

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 01 2014 at 16:30

richardh wrote:

As you and Dean both pointed out, the Influence of The Nice, as well as others, definitely slipped below my radar. I will keep that in mind and I will listen to The Nice again later on tonight. Not a bad little group as I remember.

Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: July 01 2014 at 22:53

The problem with saying ITCOTCK is the first true prog album is that it leads to arguing about what it means to be a true prog album. Personally I think that's a bunch of hooey. Only two songs could even be considered true prog on it(if we are going to use strict definitions). It somehow became known as the first prog album because it just stood out and had a huge influence in part because it was rather successful. More obscure albums aren't known enough to have much influence(at least not at the time).

Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 01:22

Prog_Traveller wrote:

The problem with saying ITCOTCK is the first true prog album is that it leads to arguing about what it means to be a true prog album. Personally I think that's a bunch of hooey. Only two songs could even be considered true prog on it(if we are going to use strict definitions). It somehow became known as the first prog album because it just stood out and had a huge influence in part because it was rather successful. More obscure albums aren't known enough to have much influence(at least not at the time).

I'm now wondering which of Epitaph and 21st Centrury Schizoid Man is not a prog song. Smile

Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 03:00

Slightly off the topic - I do not understand that in discussions about that early Brit prog, nobody mentioned Family, although they were released a brilliant debut album Music In A Doll's House in 1968, and immediately became one of the leading bands of that British progressive rock movement (scene).

Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 03:52

Svetonio wrote:

Slightly off the topic - I do not understand that in discussions about that early Brit prog, nobody mentioned Family, although they were released a brilliant debut album Music In A Doll's House in 1968, and immediately became one of the leading bands of that British progressive rock movement (scene).

Dean wrote:

There are a number of albums and artists that laid the ground-work for "Symphonic Prog" The Nice was most certainly a very important one and you could also cite the Barque Pop of Procol Harum and The Moody Blues and the orchestral-layered foundations of bands like Family as having a significant influence but these in isolation do not bring us to the state of Symphonic Progressive Rock that hit its peak in the early 70s. For that we have to look to bands that approached the classical music inspired side of Prog from the opposite direction as it where - from the instrument side rather than the music side - and with that I mean predominately keyboards (Hammond, Mellotron & Synth).

Dean has already mentioned Family

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 03:53

A-hem.

Dean wrote:

... and the orchestral-layered foundations of bands like Family as having a significant influence...

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What?

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 04:12

Ha - ninja'd by the antipodean rodent LOL

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What?

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 04:12

Ha - ninja'd by the antipodean rodent LOL

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What?

Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 04:34

I experienced one of those 500 Internal error thingies when I tried to post my reply (so the order is probaly skewed by the software glitch thang y'all)

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 04:47

ExittheLemming wrote:

I experienced one of those 500 Internal error thingies when I tried to post my reply (so the order is probaly skewed by the software glitch thang y'all)

Me too, lots of the damn things. Using this site is becoming increasingly frustrating.

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What?

Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 05:03

ExittheLemming wrote:

Dean wrote:

There are a number of albums and artists that
laid the ground-work for "Symphonic Prog" The Nice was most certainly a
very important one and you could also cite the Barque Pop of Procol
Harum and The Moody Blues and the orchestral-layered foundations of
bands like Family as having a
significant influence but these in isolation do not bring us to the
state of Symphonic Progressive Rock that hit its peak in the early 70s.
For that we have to look to bands that approached the classical music
inspired side of Prog from the opposite direction as it where - from the
instrument side rather than the music side - and with that I mean
predominately keyboards (Hammond, Mellotron & Synth).

Dean has already mentioned Family

I'm sorry. I didn't read that post by Dean.
However, it is the fact that Family's debut is overlooked in discussions about early prog.

Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 05:06

ExittheLemming wrote:

I experienced one of those 500 Internal error thingies when I tried to post my reply (so the order is probaly skewed by the software glitch thang y'all)

Me too.

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 05:20

Svetonio wrote:

However, it is the fact that Family's debut is overlooked in discussions about early prog.

Perhaps by some but not by everyone.

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What?

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 09:34

As usual, due to circumstances beyond my control, I always sem to miss the most interresting parts of the discussions, like that of last night. But in retrospect, I would like to say that I feel ITCotKC's status always gets a bit deluted when compared to the other prog works happening at the time as the ITCotCK album was multi genre where the other groups stuck to basically one mode of music, be it symphonic, rock/fusion or what ever. (I'm not sure how Schzoid Man or Moonchild wasn't considered progressive by one member, but that's a topic for another day). I also feel that a chink in ITCotCK armor was the fact that is an album that was largely abandoned by it's creators. Giles and MacDonald ran like hell after the album's tour was finished, convinced that they could start a similar super group, Lake had visions of ELP or something other than KC and Fripp himself disowned the album, claiming it as a beginning that he should musically move on from. (and for years he refused to acknowledge that the album was even progressive!) I believe these former members have done enough to delute the album's status without looking for other avenues, even though their influences may be minor, they do truly exist.

Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 13:50

Well I can only agree that ITCOTKC was a highly Symphonic Rock album, probably other earlier albums might have had clear symphonic elements (which as Dean pointed out we perhaps too often tend to simplify that term to meaning just "having orchestral arrangements") but they had less rock in them (also by "rock" not meaning just "rocking electric guitars" and banging drums), while others with more clear rock had less symphonism. This album had both symphonism and rock in a close to perfect combination (and experimentation in Moonchild as well).

The musical Hair was first performed in 1967 but it began being written in 1964, it had clear rock elements and also clear symphonic (at least in a sense) elements, from this someone might say that it should be candidate for one of the first symphonic rock works, but it was not the product of a traditional rock band and probably because of that we usually exclude it from the list.

In truth other musicals such as West Side Story had also symphonic and rock elements (WSS being from 1957, the "rock" in it was more the 1950's Rockabilly than what we as modern proggers recognise as "our rock") but for some reasons they seem quite far from what we now recognise as Symphonic Prog Rock.

Is The Rocky Horror Picture Show a symphonic rock work? (this one is already from the 1970's but I just ask, considering the change of times, it's probably not too different from Ayreon stuff).

Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 13:59

Dean wrote:

ExittheLemming wrote:

I experienced one of those 500 Internal error thingies when I tried to post my reply (so the order is probaly skewed by the software glitch thang y'all)

Me too, lots of the damn things. Using this site is becoming increasingly frustrating.

Yeah, but at least in my last cases it gives the error yet the post is still posted, while in the past, unless you would have taken the precaution to save your text before hitting "Post Reply", the error would pop-up and your message would be lost.

Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 14:52

Well, I for one think that ITCOCK's jazz influences are overlooked! It was a very unusual musical blend of symphonic and jazz-rock fusion, with touches of classical guitar etc.

"Giles, Giles & Fripp" may have been one of the earliest prog works, I think PA calls it "proto-prog" or something.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 14:56

cstack3 wrote:

Well, I for one think that ITCOCK's jazz influences are overlooked! It was a very unusual musical blend of symphonic and jazz-rock fusion, with touches of classical guitar etc.

"Giles, Giles & Fripp" may have been one of the earliest prog works, I think PA calls it "proto-prog" or something.

I agree CS, I just think that KC may have made a more definitive jazz statement on later albums. What's your take on that?

Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 16:09

SteveG wrote:

cstack3 wrote:

Well, I for one think that ITCOCK's jazz influences are overlooked! It was a very unusual musical blend of symphonic and jazz-rock fusion, with touches of classical guitar etc.

"Giles, Giles & Fripp" may have been one of the earliest prog works, I think PA calls it "proto-prog" or something.

I agree CS, I just think that KC may have made a more definitive jazz statement on later albums. What's your take on that?

I do agree! For example, "Cirkus" was certainly a jazz masterpiece in my mind. However, Greg Lake's contribution as a jazz-fusion bassist is rarely discussed, it still blows my mind that he was that fast, and that good, at such a young age!!

I saw Fripp talk a bit about "Schizoid Man" and the composition thinking that went into it....he explained the chord structures to us and then, with an impish grin, he exclaimed "Now, everyone SOLO!!" We loved it!! (that was a music store audience during his "Drive to 1981" tour).

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 19:01

cstack3 wrote:

SteveG wrote:

cstack3 wrote:

Well, I for one think that ITCOCK's jazz influences are overlooked! It was a very unusual musical blend of symphonic and jazz-rock fusion, with touches of classical guitar etc.

"Giles, Giles & Fripp" may have been one of the earliest prog works, I think PA calls it "proto-prog" or something.

I agree CS, I just think that KC may have made a more definitive jazz statement on later albums. What's your take on that?

Yea man! That says it all! And Lake certainly gets little credit for the lightning work he did on Schizoid Man, which I'm not really sure he ever bettered later on. Great post. CS. Thanks.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: July 02 2014 at 23:05

SteveG wrote:

Some people view king Crimson's 1969 album In The Court Of The Crimson King in isolation as just another early experimental Prog album without serious influence on other albums of it's era. I would like to contend that ITCOCK's symphonic based songs Epitaph and the album's title track were influential on later symphonic and classically based Prog groups such as Yes and ELP that developed or formed a few years later then ITCOCK.

I'm not one of them.

1.- It's obvious that despite 21'st Century... The structure of the album is clearly Symphonic, all the tracks except the one mentioned are examples of early Symphonic, with melodic passages, orchestral sound, nice organ sections but with enough complexity to be considered Prog

2.- It's an historical fact tat when Peter Gabriel entered to the Trespass sessions, he carried an ITCOTCK album under the arm, and Tony Banks admits that this album is an influence for the new sound they were developing

We became more interested in longer form – allowing ourselves to go a few other places. The groups that were influencing us were groups that were doing a bit more of that kind of thing, like Procul Harum and Family, and Fairport Convention. When we were writing Trespass, In The Court Of The Crimson King came out, and that had influence on us, definitely.
http://www.uncut.co.uk/genesis/genesiss-tony-banks-and-mike-rutherford-talk-to-uncut-feature

Bob Carruthers in his book

Talks about the huge influence that ITCOTCK had in Genesis, to the point to be determinant in the new sound.

SteveG wrote:

Many would probably point to the Moody Blues 1967 album Nights In White Satin as the obvious symphonic influence for late 60's pop and rock albums, but I disagree as it seems that the Moody Blues NIWS influenced relatively few including the Moody Blues themselves, as they quickly eschewed their own symphonic sound in favor of psychedelic/pop on their following 1968 album In Seach Of the Lost Chord which featured odes to transcendence, LSD and Timothy Leary. In 1969

As you I disagree, IMHO The Moody Blues were a Psyche/Pop band who got remotely close to Prog when Moraz< replaced Pinder for the release of "Long Distance Voyager" in 1981.

Always thought that Days of Future Passed was a POP album with an artifuicial Orchestral intro and coda on each song, the "Symphonic" element was never part of their music, the prove is that songs as The Afternoon and The Night becvame (Thuesday Afternoon and Nights in White satin), two purely POP hits (Good ones) when the band re-released them as hit singles in their many compilation albums.

With this I don't say that ITCOTCK was the first Symphonic album, The Nice have this honor, butb they were not as influential as King Crimson.

Cheers

Iván

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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 03 2014 at 01:24

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I'm not one of them.

We became more interested in longer form – allowing ourselves to go a few other places. The groups that were influencing us were groups that were doing a bit more of that kind of thing, like Procul Harum and Family, and Fairport Convention. When we were writing Trespass, In The Court Of The Crimson King came out, and that had influence on us, definitely.
http://www.uncut.co.uk/genesis/genesiss-tony-banks-and-mike-rutherford-talk-to-uncut-feature

Bob Carruthers in his book

Talks about the huge influence that ITCOTCK had in Genesis, to the point to be determinant in the new sound.

As you I disagree, IMHO The Moody Blues were a Psyche/Pop band who got remotely close to Prog when Moraz< replaced Pinder for the release of "Long Distance Voyager" in 1981.

With this I don't say that ITCOTCK was the first Symphonic album, The Nice have this honor, butb they were not as influential as King Crimson.

Cheers

Iván

all good stuff but I would like to add that The Knife was directly influenced by The Nice track Rondo. Rutherford was a fan of that band and brought it to Banks attention at the time.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 03 2014 at 08:34

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I'm not one of them.

We became more interested in longer form – allowing ourselves to go a few other places. The groups that were influencing us were groups that were doing a bit more of that kind of thing, like Procul Harum and Family, and Fairport Convention. When we were writing Trespass, In The Court Of The Crimson King came out, and that had influence on us, definitely.
http://www.uncut.co.uk/genesis/genesiss-tony-banks-and-mike-rutherford-talk-to-uncut-feature

Bob Carruthers in his book

Talks about the huge influence that ITCOTCK had in Genesis, to the point to be determinant in the new sound.

As you I disagree, IMHO The Moody Blues were a Psyche/Pop band who got remotely close to Prog when Moraz< replaced Pinder for the release of "Long Distance Voyager" in 1981.

With this I don't say that ITCOTCK was the first Symphonic album, The Nice have this honor, butb they were not as influential as King Crimson.

Cheers

Iván

Thanks Ivan. Great post. It's exactly this kind of direct album to band influence that I've been searching for from PA members, and I agree that Days Of Future Passed does have a 'cobbled together' orchestra and band dynamic but I think it's safe to say that, pop or not, the album came off as symphonic given the context of the times. However, as Dean pointed out, it's symphonic sound was totally from the orchestral side as opposed to originating from the keyboard side of later groups like KC, Yes, et al.

Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 03 2014 at 10:17

Somehow I missed this thread......blame it on my old age.

I think KC and ITCOTCK have been influential on multiple levels of prog rock over the years including symphonic prog. Any of us could list many reviews where critics have mentioned KC influence in a band.

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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 03 2014 at 10:30

dr wu23 wrote:

Somehow I missed this thread......blame it on my old age.

I think the thing is Doc that as much as ITCofCK is quoted for it's influence on Prog, I feel there's been a disconnect with some people as to how it actually influenced other bands to produce their Prog music after the album was released, so this is my clumsy attempt to persuade some people to re-examine the dramatic effect ITCotCK once had on Prog and why it is really still so important. Those that truly understand need no refresher.

Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 13 2014 at 11:27

...

I don't think that ANY musician on the face of this earth sets out to do this. That is as crazy and bizarre as it gets!

I do think that the folks in that first album felt that they had something to say, and this was their way to express it. Please read my emotional review on this album as it differs from others a lot.

In general, "Epitath" was a sad comment about VietNam and the IRA situation at the time. It was also "real" since many folks would be losing friends and what not.

Other songs, like 20th Century, was almost a comment on Idi Amin and other dictators out there that were using force, and other methods to get done what they wanted. The same comment was all over Europe about "VietNam" and the US's involvement. France had been there before, and pretty much quit the whole thing because it was a dead end. But the US did not admit that until way later!

Things like "I talk to the Wind" are important to me, and no different than saying that you are not listening/hearing me, anymore than I am to you! Meaning that we don't even know there is a wind out there and it smells of war, and hatred and (later) religion and what not ... in order for us to resolve things peacefully ... but you can't ... folks in "power" and "control" do not give up that ability ... EVER ... without a fight and guns! It's been like that for thousands of years ... you already know that!

In essence, to me, this album has less to do with "progressive" than it did the creative work that these folks put together to express their views and opinions, and this is the reason why the later albums by KC, for me, are not as important. I don't mind John Wetton, but he has nothing to say that is worth hearing, compared to the 1st album! Playing maybe, but not anything else!

The "symphonic" word used here is a complete and utter non-sense. It was the instrument that best explained the emotional situation without having to use a Hammond Organ, the favorite at the time! And only the Moody Blues had been using the mellotron, and even by then folks were tired of Mike Pinder's lazy use of the instrument. (my word!) ... but instead, we consider it the bastion of keyboards/symphonic for progressive music, and it wasn't! You might be better suted to say that the instrumentational design of the bands work in that album was VERY symphonic in its application, instead of it being rock'n'roll styled crap!

Tim Leary fits in another discussion about AshRaTempel/Krautrock, not KC or anyone else in the progressive circles.

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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 14 2014 at 08:40

moshkito wrote:

...

I don't think that ANY musician on the face of this earth sets out to do this. That is as crazy and bizarre as it gets!

I do think that the folks in that first album felt that they had something to say, and this was their way to express it. Please read my emotional review on this album as it differs from others a lot.

In general, "Epitath" was a sad comment about VietNam and the IRA situation at the time. It was also "real" since many folks would be losing friends and what not.

Tim Leary fits in another discussion about AshRaTempel/Krautrock, not KC or anyone else in the progressive circles.

Great response M. It's good to see that some people actually look past the influences of ITCotCK and explain what's at the heart of the album, in this case it's relevant lyrics for the times as well as it's music. My brother was in Vietnam at the time so Epitath became a calming mantra to me in that other people cared about his plight and said so in song. This time in a progressive song. But again, all these songs are subjective as I see I Talk To Wind as an obvious reference to the counter culture clash and break down of communication between the two factions. A counter culture individual would be talking to the wind if he talked to a straight, but again it's my take. ITCotCK is a complex album on many different levels and you have touched on just one of them.