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Magog2112 View Drop Down
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    Posted: July 30 2023 at 08:20
I've noticed this pattern with many of the bands or artists that I listen to: The third album from a band is when many bands release their first masterpiece or find their "sound." That's not to say the two albums that preceded the third album are bad by any means, but you still get a sense that the band or artist are finding their footing, musically speaking. I know this doesn't apply for every band, but I thought it would spark an interesting discussion. Here are some bands that I think this phenomenon applies to:

Arena - The Visitor
Captain Beefheart - Trout Mask Replica
The Flower Kings - Stardust We Are
Genesis - Nursery Cryme
Haken - The Mountain
Kate Bush - Never for Ever
Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin III
Pain of Salvation - The Perfect Element, Pt. I
Pendragon - The World
Peter Gabriel - Peter Gabriel III
Porcupine Tree - The Sky Moves Sideways
Radiohead - OK Computer
Supertramp - Crime of the Century
Yes - The Yes Album

I'm curious to hear what you all think of this.
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It would be just as easy to come up with a list of bands who hit the ground running with their first or second album!

Sorry if that sounds a bit grumpy but I’m tired today…
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Stressed Cheese View Drop Down
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Originally posted by essexboyinwales essexboyinwales wrote:

It would be just as easy to come up with a list of bands who hit the ground running with their first or second album!

Sorry if that sounds a bit grumpy but I’m tired today…

No, I agree. Most bands will find their sound early on in their career, so in the first three or four albums or so, and a lot of them will record their most acclaimed album early on as well. So 3rd albums might be overrepresented, but not any more than 1st or 2nd albums. If anything, I find that in my personal music collection 3rd albums might be underrepresented a bit.

Also, Kate Bush's first album is already a big one for her, and Led Zeppelin III is the least acclaimed of their four numbered albums. For some it's surely correct (Yes, Genesis, though Trespass is arguably acclaimed enough), and you can add, IMO, Todd Rundgren, Huey Lewis and the News, and King Gizzard. But idk if it's much of a "phenomenon".
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It's correct for some artists (imo of course) - Yes, The Jam, Kate Bush - but then there will always be some people who prefer the early stuff (I've met people who think Yes "disappeared up their own arses" after the first two albums). I really can't agree with Led Zep though, brilliant though III is, it's not as good as the two that preceded it (imo). 
There are also bands that made brilliant debut albums but never managed to improve on them (imo) - The Beat and Hootie and the Blowfish for example.


Edited by chopper - July 30 2023 at 08:56
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The Dark Elf View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Magog2112 Magog2112 wrote:

I've noticed this pattern with many of the bands or artists that I listen to: The third album from a band is when many bands release their first masterpiece or find their "sound." That's not to say the two albums that preceded the third album are bad by any means, but you still get a sense that the band or artist are finding their footing, musically speaking. I know this doesn't apply for every band, but I thought it would spark an interesting discussion. Here are some bands that I think this phenomenon applies to:

Arena - The Visitor
Captain Beefheart - Trout Mask Replica
The Flower Kings - Stardust We Are
Genesis - Nursery Cryme
Haken - The Mountain
Kate Bush - Never for Ever
Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin III
Pain of Salvation - The Perfect Element, Pt. I
Pendragon - The World
Peter Gabriel - Peter Gabriel III
Porcupine Tree - The Sky Moves Sideways
Radiohead - OK Computer
Supertramp - Crime of the Century
Yes - The Yes Album

I'm curious to hear what you all think of this.
You're looking for a pattern that isn't there.

In regards to Led Zeppelin, the masterpiece is IV, not III, and I would suggest that elements of I, II and III were necessary to make IV, not to mention subsequent albums Houses of the Holy and Physical Graffiti. Peter Gabriel III was a masterpiece, certainly, but it bears little resemblance to the albums that followed, Security or So (Gabriel being a chameleon). 

But your theory doesn't work for King Crimson (where their debut was a masterpiece, but the sound of antecedent albums didn't arrive until album 4, Larks Tongue in Aspic -- a direct precedent to Starless and Bible Black and Red), or Jethro Tull (their 2nd album Stand Up was the template that was then expended upon), or David Bowie (Hunky Dory, his 4th, was more a template than his 3rd The Man Who Sold the World). Gentle Giant? Again, probably their 4th album Octopus was the primary launching pad for In a Glass House, Power and Glory and Free Hand. 

Yes and Genesis did hit their stride at albums 3, but did it really take ELP to get their sound or release a masterpiece with their 3rd album, Pictures at an Exhibition? I would suggest Tarkus, their 2nd album, makes more sense for an album from whence all others followed.

But it's all subjective and piecemeal to make such proclamations. Every band is different, as are the listeners.
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richardh View Drop Down
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Points: 26471 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 10:08
I think Haken found a lot of other bands sound on their 3rd album and took to their 4th and 5th albums to get something really interesting out. Generally if bands arent doing it by the 5th album then they are just not doing it at all!
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Queensyryche's Operation: Mindcrime was the third album. It was a masterpiece.
Rage for Order was the second album, a masterpiece too...😉


Edited by UnderGround - July 30 2023 at 11:08
https://antonisadelfidis.bandcamp.com/album/zantea-chronicles-the-nightmare-awakens
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Points: 49161 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 12:53
I suppose someone with a significant amount of time that likes to play with data could perform a statistical analysis of a wide swath of bands to determine where, for a typical prog band, one might find the average peak of creativity within a discography based on album ratings. I'm sure there are probably many variables to consider (such as personnel changes, peak brain performance, etc.) and there likely will be outliers (like those mentioned in comments before mine).

They already do something similar in baseball statistics, where peak performances tend to happen around the ages of 26 to 28, but even there outliers exist. I'm not saying that there is any correlation between baseball and prog rock, but I think you can understand the similarities. It would be a curious project. I'm not volunteering.

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Back in the day (1970s), British bands often would live together in London flats or country houses.  This gave them a chance to improve their musical communication, work on ideas with each other, etc. 

If you search around online, you'll find quite a few stories about this era!  I know that my friend Ray Bennett, bassist from Flash, was a flat-mate with Chris Squire, perhaps explaining how they both developed a nearly identical lead-bass Rickenbacker style. 

Bob Fripp and Peter Banks also shared a flat, and I detect many crossovers in style, particularly in the use of devices (volume pedal etc.).   It's a topic worth looking into! 
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Simon Says - Tardigrade. Sadly this turned out to be their final album. :-:
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a lot of people (not me)  regard UFO's 3rd album Phenomenon as the true first album. 
I personally prefer UFO2 Flying 
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If trying to investigate this "phenomenon" on an inter-subjective basis, one could look at a larger number of randomly picked artists 
and see whether their third album is the highest rated.
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Originally posted by UnderGround UnderGround wrote:

Queensyryche's Operation: Mindcrime was the third album. It was a masterpiece.
Rage for Order was the second album, a masterpiece too...😉

And their full-length debut, The Warning? Masterpiece. Wink
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I've often thought it takes at least a couple of albums under their belt for an artist to really hit their stride and creativity, but there is really no hard and fast rule of thumb to this. Some artists make a magnificent debut and little else of similar calibre, and others take a much longer journey to get to their masterpiece - remember DSotM was Pink Floyd's eighth studio album (and that's not counting the Zabriskie Point recordings or the London 66-67 stuff).


Edited by Progishness - July 31 2023 at 10:04
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This, or something like it, was common in the 70s. It is possible that the record companies signed the bands based on potential rather than the idea of getting an immediate hit. This allowed a good band to grow and develop. On the sales side, it would take a while for a band to gain wide notice, so they would tour and perform often. At the time, this was one of the few ways a band could broaden its popularity. By the third or fourth album, most had hit their stride, even if the earlier albums were good. For example, one of my favorite Queen albums is Queen II (and their first is one of my favorite debuts), but they only got attention on the U.S. west coast with Killer Queen, from their third. Their fourth album, of course, was their big breakthrough. By that time, they were seasoned enough to take full advantage of the situation.
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Soft Machine - Third

Edited by Tuzvihar - July 31 2023 at 12:06
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