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The court of the crimson king
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Mortte View Drop Down
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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I consider "Lizard" to be much better than "ITCOTCK". I actually wonder why "ITCOTCK" is so highly rated when one fourth of the album is considered to be utter crap by many
Happy Family (Possibly about the band)

"Happy Family" actually is a song about the Beatles, with Judas being Paul McCartney, Jonah being John Lennon, Silas being George Harrison and Rufus being Ringo Starr. there are several allusions to the Beatles in the song lyrics, like "whipped the world and beat the clock" (a wordplay with their name and their world-wide success), "silver Rolls from golden rock" (referring to the Rolls Royces they could buy due to their many golden records), "each to his revolving doors" (reference to the album "Revolver") and "let their sergeant mirror spin, if we lose the barber's win" (hints to "Sergeant Pepper" and "Penny Lane"). the wife nasty Jonah grew is of course Yoko Ono.

there is a picture of the Beatles on the album cover, with Yoko Ono coming out of a bottle as a smoke column. here it is:


All the pictures in the cover are taken from the album lyrics.
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Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

Itchycock is neither their best nor a masterpiece (although it has some masterpiece content). I think In the Wake of Poseidon is an improvement and Islands is their best. Nevertheless this album is an unevitable milestone in the history of prog.


I agree, it's an important prog album, rather than a masterpiece of prog. I also agree that ITWOP is a step up, and I've never really understood the dislike of it, that some people seem to have.
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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I don't know if ITCOCK is my favorite, but it certainly is a masterpiece. An essential album for anyone interested in progressive rock and how it originated. I don't care about the discussion "what was the first prog album".

I don't always listen to Moonchild in its entirety, but I don't think it makes the album less worth or less essential. An essential album doesn't have to be amazing in every second of it. Even if most people consider Moonchild crap, the rest is still excellent and way ahead of its time.

Compared to In The Wake of Poseidon, Lizard or Islands, I think ITCOCK is much better.


Edited by Junges - May 10 2018 at 06:27
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Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

Itchycock is neither their best nor a masterpiece (although it has some masterpiece content). I think In the Wake of Poseidon is an improvement and Islands is their best. Nevertheless this album is an unevitable milestone in the history of prog.


I agree, it's an important prog album, rather than a masterpiece of prog. I also agree that ITWOP is a step up, and I've never really understood the dislike of it, that some people seem to have.

itchycock - ROFLMAO
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dr wu23 View Drop Down
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^The Beaver borrowed that title ..I believe.. from Dean our past esteemed mod and former reigning board critic.

;)
ps...Dean also coined the word Metallicaca   
pss...Arguing about calling an album masterpiece is about as subjective as it gets and the same discussion can be had about any of the ones (Pawn Farts anyone..?) that have achieved that nomenclature on the review pages. I would love one of the 'old board collabs' to explain exactly how that happens. I have seen an album rated 4.39 get essential..a masterpiece yet one rated 4.27 not get called masterpiece...is it a numbers game...number of votes..what?
Opinions are like....well. you know the rest of that phrase.  ;)


Edited by dr wu23 - May 10 2018 at 08:17
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LTIA > Starless and Bible Black > Lizard > Deception of the Thrush > ItCotCK > Discipline > ...

ItCoCK is an important album, but it sounds very dated to me. I'm old, but still younger than many here, too young to have experienced it when it was new and fresh. It seems more like a museum piece to me, and I enjoy it in that fashion (museums are wonderful).

BTW, I love the second part of Moon Child. I appreciate noodling more than many on PA.

I can't stand I Talk to the Wind, though. Ugh!




Edited by HackettFan - May 10 2018 at 09:34
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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Dellinger View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Court is my favorite album too, but Red, Lizard, Larks & In the Wake are also really close in greatness, also Islands and Starless & Bible have grown really great to me during the years. I like all the Crimson albums, but after seventies albums still are not even close to the greatness of their seventies albums.


I also think their was something more special about their music in the 70's... by the 80's I feel it got colder and more mechanical.
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Points: 16526 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2018 at 14:22
Poseidon isn't a step up from Court imo only because it's too much of an imitation. Court is maybe their third or fourth best album behind LTIA, Red and possibly Lizard. I go back and forth as to whether I like Poseidon more or less but it's close. I'll take the devil's triangle over moonchild though. I actually heard the song portion of moonchild (ie the first two minutes)on an independent college station not too long ago. How cool is that? 
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^ I don't think, by any bit, that Poseidon is a step up from Court... but not so much because of the immitation thing... but rather because I like every single equivalent better... much better in Court. Actually, the only song I really like on Poseidon is the title one. And about The Devil Triangle... I like better the early live versions of Mars better, too.
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I would agree with many posters that ITCOTCK certainly sounds 'of its time' due principally to the Mellotrons, the erstwhile production values and Sinfield's much imitated 'Hippy Gothic' wordplay etc. 21st Century Schizoid Man, Epitaph and the title track are however, pretty much indispensable with regards any Prog pedigree lineage. The remainder, no matter how cute, were never going to be rescued from the pound by this listener. That said, there are contemporaneous albums by the Nice, Arthur Brown, the Doors and Floyd which are also very much date stamped 'state of the art 68/69' but seem to have aged more gracefully. 
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Points: 26369 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2018 at 02:49
Is this the 'discussing any KC record other than Red or Power To Believe' thread?!
ITCOTKC is important and put forward a template for others to follow. ITWOP is more 'ballsy' which is why I play that more often but creatively it's not on the same planet as the debut. The others are okay in my book but I haven't paid them enough attention to judge. Red is in my top five favourite albums and Power To Believe my second fave KC album.
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seems like an interesting thread, but no more time right now.
Sinfield's text until Lizard are mega interesting... Afterwards, I'm not so positive.

Iiiiii'll be back.
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someone_else View Drop Down
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Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

ah, I found my post about "ITCOTCK". this is what I wrote in it:

"In the Course of the Crimson King" is considered to be the first full-fledged prog album by many people. let me first make it clear that I don't believe such a claim can be made by any album. prog was, like any other musical form, something that gradually developed, and it makes no sense at  all to define a clear point for saying "this is where it all starts".

that being said let's have a closer look at ITCOTCK track by track:

"21st Century Schizoid Man" has all the trademarks  we expect from a prog song, even if it keeps the traditional song structure. there are unusual time signatures and lots of complicated stuff going  on. conclusion: a full-fledged prog song.

"I Talk to the Wind" is most definitely a pop song. a beautiful one with a nice instrumental midsection, but nevertheless a pop song. not prog at all

"Epitaph" really is a tearjerker sung by a crooner, including the funeral march in the middle. the heavy use of mellotron only serves to emphasize the tearjerker qualities of that song. not prog at all.

"Moonchild" can be divided into two parts, a song part and an experimental part that hardly anyone listens to; it is usually skipped (not by me though). what is being  done in the instrumental section is in my opinion trying to express the song lyrics word for word with instruments only, and it succeeds in this regard. this second part is highly prog; the first part however is a simple pop song. verdict: prog, but since the second part is skipped by most people this has to be taken with a grain of salt. the first part is not prog at all.

"In the Court of the Crimson King". this song  has all  the hallmarks of true prog, though it has to be noted that this song still more or less keeps the traditional song structure.

so what do we have in the whole? a pop song, a tearjerker, two prog songs and one half-and-half (which taken as a whole has to be considered fully prog). now decide for yourself: is that enough  to make up a full-fledged prog album?

oh, and so you don't get me wrong: I like the album  very much, and all of it, including "Moonchild". I just don't think it's status as "first full-fledged prog album" is justified. and don't forget the  statement I made in the second sentence of this post.

I am completely aware that this post is extremely heretical, and I fully expect to be subjected to the Spanish inquisition for it Wink

that's my five cents about the album. and no, I don't want to start another discussion; I just want to point out that there can be different opinions about the album. and I really like it; what I don't like is all the myth surrounding it

Nice post and I can agree with its content for at least 90%. Clap
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I thought the OP was asking for suggestions - records or bands that sound like ITCOTCK.
Good luck with that.

As far as its historical significance, etc. all that's been covered and everyone is correct: It IS the first Prog album. It ISN"T the first Prog album. Both are accurate statements.
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Remember i did not say it is the best kc album ,just what i find the most listenable ,i must have a least 950 listening s, that i can recount
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Only 950?!?!
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I don't think I've heard the album in it's entirety more than 20 times. Do I have catching up to do? Tongue
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grantman View Drop Down
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i first listened to the record 25 years ago then the cassette 20 years ago ,and then the cd 15 years ago and now the remastered version about 7 years ago at least 950 times in my life similar to DARK SIDE OF MOON cannot hear is one track but it,s entirely, same with EMERSON ,LAKE and PALMER first album ,also GENESIS FOXTROT one more YES CLOSE TO THE EDGE not just one track but the complete album.
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Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

I thought the OP was asking for suggestions - records or bands that sound like ITCOTCK.
Good luck with that.

As far as its historical significance, etc. all that's been covered and everyone is correct: It IS the first Prog album. It ISN"T the first Prog album. Both are accurate statements.


Perhaps The Moody Blues? Days of Future Passed?
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Originally posted by grantman grantman wrote:

i first listened to the record 25 years ago then the cassette 20 years ago ,and then the cd 15 years ago and now the remastered version about 7 years ago at least 950 times in my life similar to DARK SIDE OF MOON cannot hear is one track but it,s entirely, same with EMERSON ,LAKE and PALMER first album ,also GENESIS FOXTROT one more YES CLOSE TO THE EDGE not just one track but the complete album.
It´s same to me, I very rare overall listen single tracks, I am album guy, but really haven´t got any reason listen for example Aqualung-song, I very rare listen that album just because I must have listened it at least over hundred times, but anyway always listen the whole album. Not long ago I listened In the Court and it sounded again so great!
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