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Topic ClosedDoes it matter how music's sound is produced?

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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Does it matter how music's sound is produced?
    Posted: November 30 2006 at 22:30
The other night I was reading in a website from a contributor a comment about how Phil Collins' voice is so awful that when he sang in Genesis, they always added reberverance (sorry if mispelled) effect in the recordings, and if you listen closely, you'll notice it....
 
.... then off course, next time I put A trick of the Tail (marvelous by the way), today that is, I paid special attention to this fact... and I realized it MAY be true.... we can't deny that Collins' voice's flaws were always carefully hidden underneath a thick layer of reverberance....BUT...
 
does that detract from the music? I mean, having or not this in mind, that album is great, and the music you hear is great, and THE SINGING SOUNDS GREAT... Yes, we can say is "helped" by a console and studio-work, but, what I want to ask is, do things like this damage the experience you get with music? Better said, DOES IT MATTER THE WAY THE SOUNDS YOU LISTEN TO IN A RECORDING WERE PRODUCED OR JUST, well, THE SOUNDS THEMSELVES, THE MUSIC?
 
Another example: I once found myself with a copy (a LOONG TIME AGO, please, I made mistakes, tooBig smile) of a Rage Against The machine album in my hand.... in the booklet it said: "no keyboards, samplers, pedals or any other effect in the recording, only sounds produced by guitars, drums and bass".... At that time I said "yeah, those synth-loving b*****ds!!!" Embarrassed.... But now I say: WHAT??? Does it matter that a machine produces the sound? Does it matter whether the sound is produced by a string vibration or a hammer hitting metal strings or a wooden stick hitting drum heads, or if its produced by an electronic device? Does it take away from the musicians' vision and creation? Is it less worthy of recognition an album where the musician used a lot of pre-*made sounds BUT USED THEM SO WELL they actually produce music, or the true artist is the one that plucks ths strings, hit the heads and keeps away from stepping onto an effect pedal?  
 
It may sound stupid, but: does the end justify the means in art and music?
 
I, for one, think It does.
 
Opinions please....
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2006 at 23:01
production...

I agree with you, The T, in that if the artistic vision is good, who cares what tecnology is used to achieve it. On the other hand, many pop acts rely on production tricks alone to sound "good" with little or no artistic talent. I guess it's necessary to discern between the two cases.
Other way to put it is to say that electronic sounds- or any kind- are but part of a larger musical vocabulary. It's up to the artist to choose his/her form of expression. I read Trey Gunn stating that for him, Eno's biggest achievement was the use of the recording studio as a musical instrument.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2006 at 23:05
I think the computerized music is often far more engaging than that with "real instruments." It depends on what style and what effects.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2006 at 23:29
No -- as long as it's not "produced" by the likes of Michael Jackson, Celine Dion, Shania Twain, Abba, Mr Loboto, Nickleskwak, irritable bowel syndrome/growling....Angry
 
 
 Never use yer nether cheeks to produce music, either!  Pinch
 
 
 
Got that, Herr Farten? Dead
 
 
Ermm Butt seriously, any musical sound, natural or electronic, can be "good." (Though I really like to hear some beautiful acoustic instruments in my prog, too, as in classic Genesis, PFM, Giant, Tull, etc.)


Edited by Peter Rideout - November 30 2006 at 23:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2006 at 23:36
I used computer to bring my ideas to front of my eyes and ears but mix of two way is my better choice. The Organic references from guitars, basses and drums are fundamental to mix with electronic sounds, effects and synths and programming in search of good vibes and performances to compose songs that I imagine. Today both are essential for me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 00:16
Technology is fun and a judicious use of it has always been something I like. you can over do it (hell, you can over do anything), but for the most part I'm all in favor of it.

Reverb, BTW, is used on virtually every vocal track ever recorded by any singer since the early 1950's. it's purpose is to make it sound like the singer is not standing in a totally sound deadend room (the vocal booth in a recording studio), without having all the problems associated with recording in a larger space.

It's a bit funny; they record in a dead room to control the sound, then add reverb to make the dead room sound alive. Go figure.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 00:51
It depends on the reason the tech is implemented. If its done in order to innovate thats one thing. If its done to cover up crappy musicianship then it does matter. In that case, its not serving the music, but rather the person.

Edited by Deathrabbit - December 01 2006 at 00:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 02:03
great topic......i think yes, it IS impt how music is produced, esp when you look at the recorded album as a work of art in and of itself.  How could Joy Division's Unknown Pleasures be the classic it is without Martin Hannet's revolutionary production and engineering?  Pink Floyd's DSOTM w/o Alan Parsons?  Or the ECM sound w/o Manfred Eicher's sense of aesthetics?
 
of course the relationship bet artists and producers must be symbiotic where they compliment and bounce off one another to produce great art.   But production (and hey even mastering thereafter) is a critical input one cannot do wiithout for making records.     
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 02:22
Vocals can sound very different from album to album.For instance on ELP's Trilogy Greg Lake's voice is 'dry' (ie natural) while on the following album (Brain Salad Surgery) it was distorted and even speeded up by using production tricks.I actually like both.There are no hard and fast rules about this.As someone said it depends on your artistic vision and the needs of the music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 05:32
'Reverberance'? is that the same as 'Reverb'? I guess so, but then there are many different types of reverb; Dry Plate, Wet Plate etc. Phil Collins is far from a perfect singer, but there are all manner of effects that can be applied to a voice in a studio, that could make literally any singer sound half decent. The verses of 'One for the Vine' are a good example of where Collins sings with very little or no 'reverb' at all. Jon Anderson often sings with a lot of reverb (Turn of the Century' being a good example) to marvellous effect, but we all know he is a great singer, and doesn't really need anything to embellish his voice. The effects are there to enhance the overal feel of the music.

So, I dont really think it matters how the sounds were produced, as long as the effect is achieved. By the same token, a good song will always be a good song, even if the drums sound like old biscuit tins, and the singer is using execssive 'reverberance'
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 05:54
I dislike OVERproduced and cheesy-sounding albums - today almost every Doom-metal album sounds as if it was recorded in Justin Timberlake's studio few seconds after he left it .Where's the feeling, emotions, etc?

I've noticed some flaws on LZ's debut - they go wrong in I can't quit you baby - but that what makes the music ALIVE and BREATHING!

As for using samples and computer drums - if they sound satisfying for me, than no problem. I'm a one-man-band myself, and know the problems with "live" instruments during home recording
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 06:10
Originally posted by frippster frippster wrote:

production...

I agree with you, The T, in that if the artistic vision is good, who cares what tecnology is used to achieve it. On the other hand, many pop acts rely on production tricks alone to sound "good" with little or no artistic talent. I guess it's necessary to discern between the two cases....

 
I think the point of these detractors is:  "It may sound great as a studio-polish, but what about when I pay good hard cash to listen to it live - and the vocals suck!"  I am not saying this is the case for Phil - or any other prog lead vocalist - but I can see where such detractors would want to get their money's worth when seeing a prog band live and expecting the vocals to sound as good as they do on the studio recording....
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 06:18
I see little point in complaining about the use of reverb, double-tracking, overdubbing or other standard recording techniques. They have been an essential part of recording for decades. Without them, parts of SGT PEPPER or THE PIPER AT THE GATES OF DAWN would sound rather flat and uninteresting - and that was just the beginning!

But when it comes to live concerts, you can't hide every flaw. Tull fans will probably know that Ian Anderson doesn't have much of a voice left by now. When Ian wants to make a new album, he can probably record the vocals on a comparatively good day, and he could even WHISPER if he wanted to - the producer will put his words well forward in the mix. But when he needs to sing live, the audience will notice he just isn't up to it.

All the same, you can't imagine how refreshing it is to hear artists playing totally unplugged. Here in Oxford (U.K.) we've got several small auditoriums where I've experienced concerts that were almost 100% acoustic (only the bass players used amps), by contemporary jazz players such Tim Garland, the Tord Gustavsen Trio and Joyosa (with Markus Stockhausen and Arild Andersen). Such occasions are incredibly intimate. I've even heard Kenny Wheeler (the superb Canadian flugelhorn player) in one of the local college chapels, with only a guitarist and a saxophone accompanying him - it was JUST as if you were present at an ECM recording session!

The same with classical music. You go and listen to a lute or piano recital, a string quartet or a baroque orchestra with vocal soloists, and there's no room for fakery. It's all naked, direct, real!

Some weeks ago Sting gave a recital of Dowland songs in a London church. (I wasn't there but I read a review in a newspaper.) He was accompanied only by lute, and I'm fairly sure they didn't use microphones. Apparently Sting found the experience much scarier than singing at 'Live Eight'.

So modern recording techniques have their own charms, but as a listener you may feel a much more intimate connection with players who ignore such techniques altogether.
    

Edited by fuxi - December 01 2006 at 06:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 07:45
^ Good post fuxi.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 08:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 08:41
I think it's OK to get a little help from machines.

The problem is that when an album is overproduced it's hard to achieve the same quality on-stage.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 08:53
"Phil Collins' voice is so awful that when he sang in Genesis, they always added reberverance (sorry if mispelled) effect in the recordings"
 
Regardless of what you think of Mr Collins, technically speaking he's not a bad singer. And if he was, I don't see that reverb would cover it up. As someone else said, most singers use reverb to some degree.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 08:54
When it comes to production, I only worry if its poor production and dont bother about effects etc. For onstance I dont care about the production on Foxtrot as all the insrtruments and the overall sound is clear. But on Dream Theater's When Dream And Day Unite, the production is terrible and easily noticible as the album has a very muddy sound.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 09:57
What about electronic percussion in king crimson albums? we have it since the 80s, and in the Eyes Wide Open dvd we can see pat mastelotto playing with his drumsticks a half of the sounds that I thought he played in the albums. And I love this, I think that the music itself has more relevance than how it is produced. If it sounds good, and this sound canīt be produced by another device, its OK.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2006 at 10:09

I'll give an example from DT world...

If James LaBrie sounded on studio albums the way he does live, I would have probably hated dream theater.
His vocals are simply annoying Live.
Why does he sound good in the studio?
Probably because of the assistance he gets from machines...
Does that make me think less of him as a vocalist?
Hell Yeah.
Does it sound good to my ear?
Yep.
Do I love DT?
Yep.
 
Bottom line... I would think less of an artist that uses machines but probably still enjoy the music... I mean why not?
 
 
 
P.S - Using reverb is hardly what I see as "Assistance from Machines". Reverb is an effect singers (and any instrument basically) use to make them sound less dry. Assistance from Machines in our modern time, for example (there are dozens of examples like this), means using the likes of "auto tune", (plug a microphone into the input of an auto tune system, and output to the main console... then you can set it up that if you don't reach a specific note, or you sing off tune in certain places, the auto tuner will actually tune the pitch of your voice in real time), and you can do things like that with every good recording program, if your in a studio... auto tune is for live gigs...
 
 
And btw, Phill Collins is a great vocalist. Trick of the Tale, Wind & Wuthering, Seconds Out - GREAT VOCALS.


Edited by TheLamb - December 01 2006 at 10:25
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