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Topic ClosedPlease Self-Release Me, Let Me Go

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2010 at 21:57
Rubbish. I know from my own experience in rap that persistence counts more than talent. Trash rappers who won't take no for an answer end up signed a lot more than interesting ones who are laid-back about it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2010 at 22:07
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

From what I have seen through a couple decades of experience in the world of making music is that it boils down to this:
If your music is really good then people will flock to it, promotion will be easy. In the late 80s I worked with a band that was so powerful and creative that the good vibes from this band just oozed from the demo. The calls from clubs insisting that this band play on high profile nights were endless, Even up to over a year after the band broke up.
If your music isn't all that good you will find yourself having to promote yourself endlessly, jumping up and down and saying 'listen to me, listen to me', while those around you would probably rather talk about something else. It's not a lifestyle of much dignity.

I've got to disagree.
People are morons.  They flock to lots of things that are terrible.  The music industry kind of depends on this.


well yes but the reality is that they flock to things they like..  people may have bad taste, some may even be dumb, but they aren't sheep (evidence to the contrary)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2010 at 22:12
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Rubbish. I know from my own experience in rap that persistence counts more than talent. Trash rappers who won't take no for an answer end up signed a lot more than interesting ones who are laid-back about it.


Well, from my own experience good demos always got me better gigs than bad demos. Otherwise, why even bother making a good demo since making a bad one is so much easier.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2010 at 22:37
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

OK, let me re-phrase that. If your demo is no good it will not get you any gigs or much attention no matter how much you try to shove it in people's faces.


I think that's pretty much scripture.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 01:25
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 07:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 01:46
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

 
I've got to disagree.
People are morons.  They flock to lots of things that are terrible.  The music industry kind of depends on this.


I'd say people (the masses) eat what they're being fed and flock around what they have been conditioned to flock around. Imagine if all radio and TV stations would play only avant garde music. You can be sure people would start buying avant garde records.


I don't see it--  the assumption that people don't really like what in fact they do is a bit bizarre:  pop music is what it is because it most suits popular tastes, like it or not.  I occasionally enjoy fine dining but I much prefer a real, good old fashioned meal.  Does that mean I have an unsophisticated palate?   No, I've been cooking my whole life, had unbelievably great meals that cost $100 per person and grilled cheese sandwiches that were far better.

People consume what they enjoy most until they no longer enjoy it.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:01
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 07:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:10
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:


Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 I don't see it--  the assumption that people don't really like what in fact they do is a bit bizarre:  pop music is what it is because it most suits popular tastes, like it or not.  I occasionally enjoy fine dining but I much prefer a real, good old fashioned meal.  Does that mean I have an unsophisticated palate?   No, I've been cooking my whole life, had unbelievably great meals that cost $100 per person and grilled cheese sandwiches that were far better.People consume what they enjoy most until they no longer enjoy it.

Is it bizarre really? You're assuming that people choose freely between options. I don't believe that's the case. Let's say you've been growing up to listening to MOR all your life. What are the chances you plunge into progressive rock all of a sudden? Further, imagine traditional Indian, African or Asian traditional music. They're considered popular in their respective locations but how much do they have in common with each other and with Western traditional music? You would expect if there was common notion of "popular" there would be similarities.



I think you're talking about a situation where there is little or no choice or diversity from birth, whereas David is obviously choosing between $100 avant-garde and grilled cheese pop. Your described situation has no choice.

It would be an interesting experiment to raise some kids on nothing but Xennakis and Stockhausen, they would be super-humans who would enslave us all, ha.

Edited by Easy Money - February 03 2010 at 02:14
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:12
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 

I don't see it--  the assumption that people don't really like what in fact they do is a bit bizarre:  pop music is what it is because it most suits popular tastes, like it or not.  I occasionally enjoy fine dining but I much prefer a real, good old fashioned meal.  Does that mean I have an unsophisticated palate?   No, I've been cooking my whole life, had unbelievably great meals that cost $100 per person and grilled cheese sandwiches that were far better.

People consume what they enjoy most until they no longer enjoy it.

Is it bizarre really? You're assuming that people choose freely between options. I don't believe that's the case. Let's say you've been growing up to listening to MOR all your life. What are the chances you plunge into progressive rock all of a sudden? Further, imagine traditional Indian, African or Asian traditional music. They're considered popular in their respective locations but how much do they have in common with each other and with Western traditional music? You would expect if there was common notion of "popular" there would be similarities.


Do you genuinely believe that if avant-garde rock was played on the radio - let's say for, what, a year - that magically the music-listening world would somehow 'see the light'?  That in a fit of wisdom and sophistication  they'd throw out their Sting, Alanis Morissette, Pink, Van Halen, and Stevie Nicks, converted to some new Bohemianism that rejects all that has - or had - wide appeal?

I doubt it.  And besides, who is anyone to say they're wrong.  It takes a certain talent to songsmith, something most prog musicians wouldn't know if it bit them on their pale, bony asses.




Edited by Atavachron - February 03 2010 at 02:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:26
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 07:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:30
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Rubbish. I know from my own experience in rap that persistence counts more than talent. Trash rappers who won't take no for an answer end up signed a lot more than interesting ones who are laid-back about it.
Are you putting this forward as a good system worth emulating in Prog Rock circles? Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:40

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I've got to disagree.

People are morons.  They flock to lots of things that are terrible.  The music industry kind of depends on this.

Actually they don't, but that is neither here nor there. We're not "people" or morons and Prog don't work like that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:44
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

 
I've got to disagree.
People are morons.  They flock to lots of things that are terrible.  The music industry kind of depends on this.


I'd say people (the masses) eat what they're being fed and flock around what they have been conditioned to flock around. Imagine if all radio and TV stations would play only avant garde music. You can be sure people would start buying avant garde records.


I don't see it--  the assumption that people don't really like what in fact they do is a bit bizarre:  pop music is what it is because it most suits popular tastes, like it or not.  I occasionally enjoy fine dining but I much prefer a real, good old fashioned meal.  Does that mean I have an unsophisticated palate?   No, I've been cooking my whole life, had unbelievably great meals that cost $100 per person and grilled cheese sandwiches that were far better.

People consume what they enjoy most until they no longer enjoy it.



I think it is more accurate to say that people like what their friends like, that to some extent personal taste can be overwritten by the need to fit in with the group.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:49
^ I would say that personal taste can define what group one finds themself in

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 03:00
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 

Do you genuinely believe that if avant-garde rock was played on the radio - let's say for, what, a year - that magically the music-listening world would somehow 'see the light'?  That in a fit of wisdom and sophistication  they'd throw out their Sting, Alanis Morissette, Pink, Van Halen, and Stevie Nicks, converted to some new Bohemianism that rejects all that has - or had - wide appeal?

I doubt it.  And besides, who is anyone to say they're wrong.  It takes a certain talent to songsmith, something most prog musicians wouldn't know if it bit them on their pale, bony asses.


No, that would be quite ridiculous of course. LOL  But my guess is that it would take less than a few decades to "turn things around". Many kids nowadays don't know what a vinyl record is. Why? Because no one has told them. If you grow up (passively) listening to avant garde and avant garde only, that will be your point reference. Just like you learn to speak English if you grow up in America and Chinese if you grow up in China.


I've never believed in this line of reasoning re the fledgling listener. You might get say, 1 in a 100 kids who respond positively to hearing nothing but avant-garde music but you're left with 99 little pups who never want to hear any music ever again if it all sounds like daddy strangling a balloon animal . The core elements (in the west) that make certain musical effects satisfying to the untrained ear, are not arbitrary i.e. they are all contained and reinforced heavily in mainstream pop music:

A steady pulse
Short melodic phrases that are easy to remember (erm...catchiness ?)
Repetition
simple harmonies that resolve quickly to the tonic
The damn stuff is usually heavily compressed so that even the quieter dynamics are loud etc

I'm not qualified to say if any of the above phenomena are culturally or socially defined but such 'hooks' have been around far longer than any particular musical genre and despite the best efforts of progressive musicians since Robert Fripp was in short pants, will surely outlast them all.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 03:37
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I would say that personal taste can define what group one finds themself in

It's probably a combination of both, and quite age-dependant too as to which has the greater effect.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 03:39
I think that artists, any artist, should be able to promote their music through theses channels. To believe that you are good, to want acceptance is good,. It makes the artist believe that their dream is real. I am an artist, but I fear rejection and therefore I don't subject myself to that rejection. Take Epignosis for example, his music is him. If I don't give it a five-star rating on the music, I sure would give it high marks because he produced the whole thing and I know He has taken some ribbing for it, but it IS beautiful to hear. That progarchives can do this for any artist is, for the first time, righteous.  People have their humanlike tendencies> They'll do whatever they think they can get away with and, yeah its all avain, to the extent that we ENJOY our recreations and we want to be told we are good. The members of Progarchives are all extremely gifted and this is a GOOD website.  Thanks Max,etc
The Library of Progressive Archives reminds us, or should anyone, that great great talents are out there, not "In Here'.
 
But, by all means, Let the children Play 

assume the power 1586/14.3
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 03:42
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 07:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 03:54
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Rubbish. I know from my own experience in rap that persistence counts more than talent. Trash rappers who won't take no for an answer end up signed a lot more than interesting ones who are laid-back about it.


Well, from my own experience good demos always got me better gigs than bad demos. Otherwise, why even bother making a good demo since making a bad one is so much easier.
 
 
What constitutes "good", and what constitutes "bad"?
 
Tongue
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 03:56
Ok Lets try this
 
Your'e not gonna like the song you once liked if YOU ARE HUNGRY

assume the power 1586/14.3
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