Overrated Genesis?

richardh wrote: Personally I think Trespass,Selling England By The Pound,Nursery Chryme and Lamb are all a bit overrated BUT Foxtrot is every bit as good as people say! Genesis (gabriel era) were a remarkably consistent band but not very innovative IMO.On balance I actually prefer the 4 studio albums they did post Gabriel if you take Foxtrot out of the equation.

Richardh I've bypassed the whole world  to get to this what on earth are you on about?Now I know your not daft but thatis one helluva statement.There is and cannot be a comparison with the later material especially after hacket left.I don't know what the other posts have said my braincells that still function went into frickin meltdown.Post Gabriel better your having a serious laugh.

Fragile wrote: richardh wrote: Personally I think Trespass,Selling England By The Pound,Nursery Chryme and Lamb are all a bit overrated BUT Foxtrot is every bit as good as people say! Genesis (gabriel era) were a remarkably consistent band but not very innovative IMO.On balance I actually prefer the 4 studio albums they did post Gabriel if you take Foxtrot out of the equation. Richardh I've bypassed the whole world  to get to this what on earth are you on about?Now I know your not daft but thatis one helluva statement.There is and cannot be a comparison with the later material especially after hacket left.I don't know what the other posts have said my braincells that still function went into frickin meltdown.Post Gabriel better your having a serious laugh.

 

I think a lot of it has to do with where you are from.  If you are an American or like American music, the later albums are more in line with 1970s American music.  One may really just miss the narrative of Gabriel's lyrics, which are very English on Selling England. (and vice versa.?) I enjoy Trick of the Tail more than Selling England, for example.  TotT has some great choruses and beautiful tracks.  I have felt that way for thirty years.  What are you going to do shoot me?

Foxtrot hit number 12 in England, Selling England number three and yet people talk about how obscure the band was. They also put out their first album in 69 just like Yes, so they were not the new kid on the block that fans seem to argue. Yes was pop in the beginning ,too. Genesis was at the forefront of the prog rock movement at least from 72 on. Of course they dd not reach an American audience in their Gabriel days but no Italian or French prog band did either. It's simple.  The other bands were playing American music, Yes was right out of CSN, Simon and Garfunkel and the Byrds. Floyd, ELP and Tull played a lot of blues. Crimson was jazzy as was Gentle Giant, though the later did not have a large American audience. 

Many respectable writers have talked about the inconsistency musically and lyrically of Selling England though for most fans it is the band's greatest album.  That is a huge dichotomy. The album seems to me like a pale comparison to Foxtrot. Get em Out by Friday is extemely well-crafted and Supper's Ready is one of the prog classics. Foxtrot was a hard act to follow, unless you want to enlighten us about what we are missing in Selling England.

 

I posted this as Ivan was posting but am still open to discussion about the significance of Selling England.

Edited by ken4musiq

I dunno about other people, but Genesis are my favorite band because of the reason that I rate their albums the way i think they should be related, not cuz of other people.

And I love all their albums.

 

 well if you don't line SEBTP there's always Foxtrot and TLLDOB or maybe if you don't like Peter Gabriel's voice there are still 2 great prog albums ATOTT and WAW. and if you don't like prog all that much there is Duke and ATTWT. Seems some are writing off the band because they don't like More Fool Me. The point is that Genesis' catalogue of great albums is much longer than any other.

^ Genesis is indeed a cool band. I think there is too much emphasis and adoration placed on the Gabriel era. The only Genesis album from that era that I like is SEBTP. Cannot see how Foxtrot and TLLDOB merit more than 4 stars. They do not impress me that much.

LAMB = 5

-Rael-

andrewkovacs wrote: The Music of Genesis is timeless from their Golden Era, which is when Collins started as precussionist up and till Steve Hackett left.  Anyone who knows music knows that the construct, delivery and 'movement' chnages are complex and layered. When I first heard "the Knife" I HATED it.  I thought, what kind of 'crap' is this?  I then LISTENED to it again after hearing Grand Funk Railroad's "T.N.U.C." and then realized that that was crap.  I returned to LISTENING to Genesis and started to appreciate their style and delivery.  I can truthfully state that only Intelligent People who LISTEN can appreciate and Intellectually enjoy Genesis and the Progressive Music Genre overall. Europeans were not raised on Afro-Slave music thats Gospel Music is based upon and which later American Rock and Roll was based upon.  I realized that being a European being raised in America had its advantages as I realized this when I was 17 years old.  The layered music of Genesis shows intelligent being inspired by Jazz/Romantic Classical/Impressionism and light elements of Rock for dynamisms sake. Genesis in my opinion during the Gabriel/Hackett years was some of the greatest music EVER written.  Rutherford's "Watcher of the Skies" is a statement about this planet and the corresponding music is symphonically beautiful, as is: "Supper's Ready" as is most everything presented from 1970 until Hackett left.  The Interaction between Banks, Hackett, Rutherford, Collins and Gabriel is wonderful, intelligent and music that like all great music is:  timeless.  That is why young individuals looking for something more esthetically colorful and challenging to their mind and spirit discover it and enjoy it 35 years later. That is also why still enjoy Beethoven, Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Debussy, Wagner and Genesis.

Totally disagree! Genesis music is very easy to play! That is why so many neo-prog bands sound like them. Countless tribute bands! There arn't many musicians around that could reproduce the playing calibre of the Howe's, Emerson's, Wakeman's, Squire, Fripp, Palmer's of this world. I'll agree that Genesis music is difficult to create but to play? No way hosey!!!

Supper's Ready is the only Genesis piece that has stood the test of time IMO!

Oh! and please do not defamate those classic composers by comparing them to Genesis

Progger wrote: andrewkovacs wrote: Totally disagree! Genesis music is very easy to play! That is why so many neo-prog bands sound like them. Countless tribute bands! There arn't many musicians around that could reproduce the playing calibre of the Howe's, Emerson's, Wakeman's, Squire, Fripp, Palmer's of this world. I'll agree that Genesis music is difficult to create but to play? No way hosey!!! Supper's Ready is the only Genesis piece that has stood the test of time IMO! Oh! and please do not defamate those classic composers by comparing them to Genesis

If 'Supper's Ready' is the only Genesis album that stood the test of time, Then why the hell have they got FOUR albums in the top ten, FOUR!!!!!!

And if Genesis music is "So easy to play", Then lets see you play the guitar parts to 'The Musical Box'!! Or if your a drummer, (I'm assuming you are) Have a bash at 'The Waiting Room', And let's test your vocal abilities by singing 'Dancing with the Moonlit Knight'

Progger, Genesis were an extremely talented group of individuals, A lot of Neo Prog bands tried to recreate Genesis' music because they had a very unique and grabbing sound, Not because it was easier to play! If that was the case they could've just sat down and wrote pop songs!

Edited by Winter Wine

Not going to shoot you. it's your taste, as valid as anybody's else.>>>

 

Not to open up any old debates, but just to clarify, music is not about taste, musical appreciation is about taste.  My favorite jazz singer is Johnny Hartmann and I don't like Frank Sinatra; that's taste.  But Hartmann modeled his total singing style after Sinatra, and loved him.  So does Placido Domingo.  So although I like Hartmann, I recognize that Sinatra's contribution to jazz singing are significant whether or not I like him. 

Supper's Ready is a beautiful piece of music.  I can tell you why I think it is outstanding and a prog classic.  I like Trick of the Tail.  It is not a great album.  Ripples, for example has a great chorus but that whole piano solo is just out of place and does not set up the return of the chorus. Selling England has an important concept but that does not make it a great album.  The lyric writing is not equal to what one sees on Foxtrot and the musical design of the songs, not as interesting. This is often noted by authors who write about the album.

Genesis was doing something very different than the other prog bands, as a matter of fact we lump them together but they are all quite unique. 

ELP references classical culture but is in no way making any allusions to being classical giants, if anything just the opposite. Emerson is writing in the tradition of English operetta  with its satire and mixture of popular and classical elements.  (He is more G and S than Elgar.) He is trying to rediscover the lost genre of popular classics. His piano concerto is more Saint Saens or Grieg than Mozart or Beethoven. Karnevil 9 and Pirates are in the tradition of popular classics. Wakeman is doing the same thing with Journey to the Center of the Earth.

Jethro Tull is Ian Anderon as a songwriter.  He is a great one, has written 20+ albums and several hundred songs.  His contributions to English songwriting will definitly be remembered one hundred years down the line. He is barely considered prog because he is writing from the tradition of blues rock of the late 1960s and its always there in his music, even on the Celtic/pagan Songs from the Woods and Heavy Horses. 

Yes is using pop music to create a sense of cosmic ritual and spiritual discovery.  After Fragile, Anderson is preoccupied with this quest for the musical grail, to create something transcedent through the contruct of popular music.  He wants to use large scale musical forms to do it and references classical sluture to bring about the grandeur associated with it not to define himself as a classical composer. Yes uses a lot of chorus, which is the reason many criticize them as too pop.  Genesis does not use alot of choruses.  I think Foxtrot and Selling engladn both have one chorus. But when they do they are great; unique and quite haunting.

Genesis in those early days is the most artsy of all the big wigs.  With Gabriel they are making a play at doing something significant, which I would argue they accomplish on Supper's Ready with its artsy pretense. The artsy pretense of Foxtrot is left behind for the more socio-political narrative of Selling England and The Lamb. By the time you get to The Lamb, most of the symbology is gone.  It may be that you have to expunge it to write in a popular style.

Pink Floyd is really writing out of the same narrative of The Beatles, Sinfield. and Gabriel. They tend towards concern for the growing centralization of power in the world and the new materialism/Imperialism.   Pink Floyd musically is arguably more influenced by the avant-garde than the other bands mentioned. That brings them closer in line with the Beatles. The other bands are really concerned with songwriting craft in a very traditional fashion, structures and modulations, although that is important for Floyd, they are more interested in the texture and mood of a piece of music.

 

feel free to disagree . .. but please be civil about it.

 

Edited by ken4musiq

Foxtrot - the best prog album ever made IMO
Selling England..., Nursery Cryme - 5 stars
Tresspass - 4,5 stars
A Trick Of The Tail, Wind & Wuthering, The Lamb - 4 stars (the last one doesn't have the magical Genesis sounding, as someone has said before)

Edited by Harold Demure