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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: What's a fair price for a CD or download ?
    Posted: January 09 2016 at 10:05
I see Dream Theater are releasing a 4 CD set for $129. Which is pretty poor.

What's a fair price for 
- a high quality album download
- a CD 
- a concert ticket (small venue) 

?

You tell me, folks ! 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 10:44
^ Isn't that the 4 LP set at that price. The vinyl is 60 quid in the UK and the standard 2 Cd £11:99. I wont be paying £60 for the vinyl version that's for sure but can't complain at £11:99. I wouldn't pay anything for a download and small venue concert ticket - £20 seems fair.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 10:45
Just to clarify, this thread isn't about whether the Dream Theater (can't even spell ;-) ) release is a fair price.... it's asking "What IS a fair price for music in general ?" 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 11:02
Bandcamp says a fair price for a digital album download is around 7 dollars, but maybe it's only recommended for beginning artists.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 11:07
Coincidentally what I charge. :-)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 11:10
I'll talk about CDs first. Because CD's take resources to make, their price will depend on the availability of those resources. What's fair is ultimately determined by the artist. If it's priced too high, fewer people will buy it, thus rendering it still "fair" that they priced it beyond the financial reach of their audience. If it's priced too low, no profit can be made from it and it can also lead to a feeling of lack of value of the product.

Downloads are slightly different. I think, unless the artist decides otherwise, they ought to be paid for. However, the pay is mainly for labor and to fund future projects. Because they can be duplicated infinitely and take no resources other than a computer and internet connection, any money made off downloads is a profit. The price is usually considered relative to the physical copy. These days, bands charge $7 or $8 for downloads on bandcamp, when the CD is around $10-$15, and I can't really complain. It's similar to CDs in that their price may determine how many people buy it. 

Obviously, this is all concerning those who do buy albums. Most of my friends who like music do buy albums, but many of them also stream and sometimes illegally download. I don't believe that the customer is right in some of those cases, but the reality is that many are streaming to discover music and they are exposed to way more choices in the marketplace, so it takes a bit more to convince listeners to buy a single product. Overpricing as Dream Theater has done is just a bad move (under the assumption that these are CDs and not vinyl we're talking about). Then again, perhaps their fans are loyal enough to buy such a thing. But fewer new listeners will be interested and new listeners are the primary target for box sets anyway.


Edited by Polymorphia - January 09 2016 at 11:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 12:26
Hi,
 
I think a concert ticket depends on the venue and its size ... however, generally speaking, many folks take a percentage, rather than a set number, because a set number on a hall of 1200 is probably going to make the tickets so spendy that the ability to sell tickets might become prohibitive.
 
The DT thing is a special edition for fans ... I don't remember it stating that it was a regular release. Please ensure that your information is correct on this, because I did read their would be a special edition of the new which was to have a book and other goodies. I might not be totally correct here, but I remember reading something like this. 
 
The $7 to $8 dollars seems fair to me. What distorts that is the individual "songs" and their price.
 
I still buy the CD's ... I like the art in it and the information. Music, STILL, is not an "invisible" part of my life where it won't matter the name who does it and you will not remember many of the songs a few years from now, because you only heard one and not the "artist" or the "album".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 12:34
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

These days, bands charge $7 or $8 for downloads on bandcamp, when the CD is around $10-$15, and I can't really complain. It's similar to CDs in that their price may determine how many people buy it. 

Thought it would be fun to compare this CD price to what I remember paying for albums back when I was still buying albums. If I recall correctly around 1980 albums were going for about $7 US. Going to one of the standard CPI inflation calculators this converts to about $20 today. So, $10 to $15 is indeed quite a deal compared to what we use to pay.
He neither drank, smoked, nor rode a bicycle. Living frugally, saving his money, he died early, surrounded by greedy relatives. It was a great lesson to me -- John Barrymore
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 13:01
I was thinking along the same lines.

When I was a teenager first getting into prog (about 1979) full price albums in the UK were around £5. I didn't pay that, I'd pick them up when my local record shop had them on sale, usually £3.

I got my first job in 1981, and my salary now is roughly 20x more than it was then. Apply the same multiplier and I should be paying £60 now ($90).

£5 ($7) seems a steal compared to that, yet I rarely pay more than that, with £10 being the most I've ever paid. Something tells me musicians are not getting the same salary increase I've enjoyed.

I haven't been to a concert by a well known artist in a few years. Back in the 80s I remember paying between £5 and £10 - not much more than an album price. This Christmas I suggested to my wife I'd like to go see Joe Bonamassa - not exactly a very well known artist in the UK - as he is coming to my home town in March. She got me a ticket for Christmas - £75. That seems a bit over the top to me, I might have expected £30 - £40 for a reasonably large venue.
However it's still not the 20x multiple compared to what I paid regularly in the 80s.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 18:15
I have no problem paying $15 for a CD (incl. tax). Anything less than $10 feels like a steal.

Album downloads should be less than $10. Anywhere between $5 and $10 seems reasonable to me.
when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 18:33
$12 is my "sweet spot" for CDs, but up to $15 isn't too bad.  Beyond that it better be really good.
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Belief is not Truth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 19:00
I pretty much won't buy a CD over 15 ^ So i agree there.

I'm happy with $10. Though im a student and money is tight. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2016 at 00:30
Fair or otherwise I use a $10 scale for what I'd like to/be comfortable paying. So...a single CD for $10, a 2CD set $20...and so forth. Obviously, I lose a bit on most single CDs (which I would guess have about a $14 or $15 average) but generally CD sets over 3 CDs fall below.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2016 at 00:53
I don't buy CDs anymore, maybe 2-3 per year. We do go to concerts both small and large venues. Small venue does not mean small price.
Just paid $60 a ticket for Dream Theater in May, same theater we saw Steven Wilson at for $35 a ticket. And paid $70 a ticket for Iron Maiden for April in a dome setting.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2016 at 05:48
Originally posted by timbo timbo wrote:

I was thinking along the same lines.

When I was a teenager first getting into prog (about 1979) full price albums in the UK were around £5. I didn't pay that, I'd pick them up when my local record shop had them on sale, usually £3.

I got my first job in 1981, and my salary now is roughly 20x more than it was then. Apply the same multiplier and I should be paying £60 now ($90). 
Your earnings potential has increased disproportionally because it is likely you are not doing the same job you were back in 1981. Using retail price inflation since 1981 the actual multiplier is around 2.84 from 1981 and 4.13 from 1979 (UK economy was in a high-inflation mess between 1979 and 1981) so your £3 in 1979 is the equivalent of £15.40 today.

From 1984:
Using the Historic Inflation Calculator that discount price of £4.49 is the equivalent of £13.55 in today's money.

So basically, despite format changes and several price-war battles that have occurred over the past 30 years, the Recommended Retail Price of albums has tracked inflation and the equivalent price has remained static, however, the actual (discounted) retail price has dropped considerably. The prices we now pay on Amazon or in the few remaining High Street retailers where you can buy CDs are discount prices, not manufacturers' recommended retail prices. (RRP on albums was scrapped in 2000 after legal ranglings between the Federal Trade Commission and the major labels).


The magic price of £9.99 (or $9.99 in the USA) at first appears to be a consumer set pricing, in that it seems to be maximum price the consumer is willing to pay for an album, however this price was actually set in the 1990s by supermarkets selling top-40 albums at just above cost-price (35% retail mark-up on albums means that an album with an RRP of £12.99 had a cost-price of £9.62, leaving 37p profit for the retailer, which in fine for top-40 albums when you can shift millions of the them each week). Once this price-point had been ingrained in the consumer the record stores had to follow to stay in business ... and as we now know few of them actually did with many of them seeing a marked decline in revenue long before downloading became an issue. Brick'n'mortar record stores couldn't make a living out of selling non-top-40 albums alone, they needed the revenue from the high-selling albums to stay profitable and there they were in direct competition from the supermarkets. I was in HMV Basingstoke yesterday and to be honest, apart from the admittedly impressive rack of vinyl albums (each stickered at £20 or more), it was a depressing sight of block-buster DVDs and non-music tat.

Amazon can make money out of selling non-top-40 albums because it is global and does not have chains of costly retail outlets, and as we have seen, the internet can only support one "Amazon" type retailer; even traditional retailers like HMV and Virgin and other online retailers such as CDNow could not compete once Amazon had established itself as the go-to place for music. CDBaby and their like survive because they are niche, but they are also very small by comparison. It could be argued that vinyl sales are a niche market that Amazon thus far has failed to capitalise on because (let's be honest here) it is a tactile product that leads to impulse buying, which is why HMV Basingstoke can stock so much of it. (Having said that, I walked out of HMV with a £9.99 CD of DBowie's Blackstar instead of the £23.99 LP because I couldn't justify to myself the extra £14 spend)

CD pricing is now a mix of "damned if you do and damned if you don't" and "monkey see, monkey do" regardless of the quality or desirability of the product being offered. The magic 9.99 price-point is something that even small producers have to live by because the consumer has come to accept (not "dictate") that pricing as the norm. Personally, I don't buy into the "it's what the consumer is willing to spend" argument, if everyone sold albums for £20 then everyone would pay £20 just like any other retail product, if we want it we will pay the price charged (re: LP sales). It is rare to the point of mythical that prices of non-essential items are consumer-driven.

In other threads (i.e. here) I have detailed how much it cost for a small producer to manufacture a batch of CDs), and to that we have to add in recording and production costs which can be anything from zero to whatever, but this ignores the value of the content, (i.e. what the IP is worth to the consumer). With downloads you are essentially paying for the IP plus the recording costs since there are no manufacturing costs, but even here the pricing is a mess and is based upon what the "industry" expects the consumer will pay rather than on what the content is actually worth.


Edited by Dean - January 10 2016 at 07:26
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2016 at 05:59
I will never pay for a download.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2016 at 06:38
Hi Logos, unfortunately, if you do that... you stop smaller bands getting the money and the fanbase to release a CD. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2016 at 09:14
If its an album I'm buying out of interest rather than 'need' (I NEEED this album) then I'll go up to $15. Depending on how desperate I am for the disc I'll go up as far as $25 and anguish over it for a week. On downloads I'll go up to $10 unless its something I can't find on any other format and really want, then I'll go to $15.

Looking at my last bandcamp order I paid $12 for a Plaistow album and $11 for GoGo Penguins. Converted from Euros & Sterling respectively.

On my last CD order I bought Patrick Gauthier - Bebe Godzilla for $26 but I've been looking for that for about 3 years.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2016 at 09:49
"Fair" is relative. Shouldn't in principle rich people pay more, and shouldn't bands that sell a few thousand albums get more per album than bands that sell millions? I mean, it's fine by me that artists earn more money overall if more people listen to them, and that people who have earned more money can buy more stuff, but market economy just gets the relations wrong and magnifies inequalities.

I'm actually fine with the fact that bands publish expensive limited fan editions to make the people who can afford them pay more   as long as their regular releases are available at OK prices (and be it minus a few cutting room floor versions and remixes that could be sold to fans only).

Also I'm personally not too attached to material CDs and it is alright for me to pay as much money for a flac download as offered on Bandcamp, which often comes with a lyrics booklet etc. I'm happy to pay up to £10 but I rarely pay more. If I have to use channels that only offer mp3, I'd still pay £7.99 for something I'd pay £10 in flac or CD form. I compare prices, so I'm not going to pay x for something which I can get for x-1 legally elsewhere; I don't believe that the difference normally goes to the artist (although I am prepared to pay somewhat more on channels like Bandcamp where money goes more directly to them). I could afford paying more but would end up paying less on other music and other stuff the producers of which also deserve some money. I'm actually not a fan geek type of person, so I wouldn't spend a fortune for something "exclusive". At the end of the day, music is for the ears.


Edited by Lewian - January 10 2016 at 09:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2016 at 11:08
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Amazon can make money out of selling non-top-40 albums because it is global and does not have chains of costly retail outlets, and as we have seen, the internet can only support one "Amazon" type retailer; even traditional retailers like HMV and Virgin and other online retailers such as CDNow could not compete once Amazon had established itself as the go-to place for music. CDBaby and their like survive because they are niche, but they are also very small by comparison. It could be argued that vinyl sales are a niche market that Amazon thus far has failed to capitalise on because (let's be honest here) it is a tactile product that leads to impulse buying, which is why HMV Basingstoke can stock so much of it. (Having said that, I walked out of HMV with a £9.99 CD of DBowie's Blackstar instead of the £23.99 LP because I couldn't justify to myself the extra £14 spend)

I've noticed that music prices seem have increased on Amazon over the last year or so (especially the more obscure stuff) and along with them ditching the free delivery on orders over £10 and increasing it to £20 they're not as cheap as they once were. At one time the Amazon Partners were usually still more expensive than Amazon but these days they're generally considerably cheaper. Obviously Amazon get a cut of their sales (I'd be interested to know how much) and perhaps they now feel that if profit margins are so low on Cd's it's more cost effective to simply take a cut of their partner's sales. Some Amazon Partners also have their own website, Dodax for example who are usually one of the cheapest on Amazon, usually sell Music even cheaper on their own website than on Amazon as they wont have to pay them a cut of the profits. Amazon may find themselves losing out in the long run.

Interestingly, the Bowie album you mentioned is also selling for £23.99 on vinyl on Amazon with a number of Partners selling it for £14.50 (plus £1.26 postage).


Edited by Nightfly - January 10 2016 at 11:16
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