Author |
Topic Search Topic Options
|
Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5101
|
Topic: When ELP Jumped the Shark Posted: March 03 2015 at 01:31 |
Well perhaps the tiger on stage was a bit of a shark-jumping...
|
|
richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26283
|
Posted: March 03 2015 at 01:06 |
I think its more a case of 'how many sharks can you jump?' as pointed out on the previous page . ELP were the shark jumping prog band of the seventies
|
|
Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15916
|
Posted: March 03 2015 at 00:39 |
This is very amusing to me - I don't think these guys ever 'jumped the shark' - some missteps along the way, they did change their approach with Works and Love Beach. Still within the Prog mould, but moving with the times. Their weakest for me is Hot Seat, of which only the title-cut held promise, the rest was an entire 'press next' exercise, and I HATE CD's. Loved the bonus Piccies recording though. Even Black Moon fared well with my ears. I think the shark in question was jumped with verve by Genesis, somewhere between Then There Were Three and Duke. Still, they paid lip-service to Prog-lovers, but in a more commercially viable 80's context. Many folks never knew of Genesis' existence before 'That's All'.......... Having said, I adore that Genesis S/T from 1983....................
|
|
geekfreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 21 2013
Location: Musical Garden
Status: Offline
Points: 9872
|
Posted: March 02 2015 at 14:09 |
M27Barney wrote:
Karn-Evil 9 (well 1st Impression anyway) WAS their finest work (although I think that Tarkus and Pictures at an Exhibition push it fairly close!) - However - Yes battered it into a top-hat with Tales from Topographic Oceans - surely THE TARGET for all those sneering mid 70's music critics, who (because they were PAID to do so) destroyed the musicians who were actually playing music for themselves (and to a certain degree the fans who weren't interested in being told what to like). TFTO - stands aloft - like those kings at the entrance to Gondor in Lord of the rings...spanning 70's prog.....Only in the last ten years have prog bands (again) begun to lengthen the songs and explore their virtuosity..... |
well said M27Barney my votes with you
|
Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake."
Music Is Live
Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed.
Keep Calm And Listen To The Music… <
|
|
M27Barney
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
|
Posted: March 02 2015 at 13:42 |
Karn-Evil 9 (well 1st Impression anyway) WAS their finest work (although I think that Tarkus and Pictures at an Exhibition push it fairly close!) - However - Yes battered it into a top-hat with Tales from Topographic Oceans - surely THE TARGET for all those sneering mid 70's music critics, who (because they were PAID to do so) destroyed the musicians who were actually playing music for themselves (and to a certain degree the fans who weren't interested in being told what to like). TFTO - stands aloft - like those kings at the entrance to Gondor in Lord of the rings...spanning 70's prog.....Only in the last ten years have prog bands (again) begun to lengthen the songs and explore their virtuosity.....
|
|
ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
|
Posted: March 02 2015 at 05:20 |
richardh wrote:
^Brain Salad Surgery was 1973 I think people often confuse 'cheesy' with 'tacky'. ELP were more the latter. BSS had more synths and that gives it a more tacky sound. In terms of music KE9 takes up most of the album and that was a 3 part rock symphony and the very point of being a prog band. I think that album would have been better if they could have incorporated Toccata into the main suite and only put out the rest out as an EP. That would have been a bold move and perhaps a step too far even for ELP. In the end Yes beat them to the punch. |
I think you're right and where people get 'cheesy' from ostentatious or at worst grandiose, beats me. ELP epitomised the stellar heights and dungeon depths that Prog was capable of but they were the antithesis of a cheapness or low quality that 'cheesy' implies. Strange how those innovators who actually invented the cliches exploited by those who followed in their wake, are accused of slavishly copying same. (Dylan is another example of this)
|
|
richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26283
|
Posted: March 02 2015 at 01:33 |
^Brain Salad Surgery was 1973 I think people often confuse 'cheesy' with 'tacky'. ELP were more the latter. BSS had more synths and that gives it a more tacky sound. In terms of music KE9 takes up most of the album and that was a 3 part rock symphony and the very point of being a prog band. I think that album would have been better if they could have incorporated Toccata into the main suite and only put out the rest out as an EP. That would have been a bold move and perhaps a step too far even for ELP. In the end Yes beat them to the punch.
|
|
dr prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2449
|
Posted: March 01 2015 at 15:35 |
1974 Pretty cheesy album with some cool moments on karnevil
|
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
|
|
richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26283
|
Posted: February 25 2015 at 14:27 |
RockHound wrote:
ELP at their best was capable of jumping the shark and making people love it. Pictures at an Exhibition was way over the top - kind of like showing up at a canasta tournament with a howitzer. Who else could have stuck cheesy lyrics on the Great Gate of Kiev and gotten away with it? The album is a completely ridiculous gesture of rebellion that turns a familiar and well-loved classic into a weapon against the establishment. What makes it great is that it is such reckless fun.
The flying piano stunt at California Jam was regarded at the time by many as an equivalent of ELP jumping the shark. What kind of rock and roll is this? It was yet another example of reckless fun that was adored by the fans and hated by, well, just about everybody else.
Works kind of stumbled over the shark - and it was no longer so much fun because the band began taking itself more seriously, and the cracks were obvious. But the tour was great (still lots of reckless fun).
And then there's the infamous Love Beach album cover. Reckless as hell, but no fun at all. As was the case for so many great bands around that time, things were same again. never the I guess there's a limit to how many sharks you can jump. |
Worth blowing up that comment (metaphorically speaking although ELP would have done it literally )
|
|
dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20491
|
Posted: February 25 2015 at 10:48 |
I suppose at Works Vol 1.....while there are some nice bits on that it has nothing to compare to the earlier albums. But I never really cared for all the silly 'beerhall' tracks they did on the earlier albums either.
|
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
|
|
Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 64533
|
Posted: February 24 2015 at 23:47 |
RockHound wrote:
ELP at their best was capable of jumping the shark and making people love it. Pictures at an Exhibition was way over the top - kind of like showing up at a canasta tournament with a howitzer. Who else could have stuck cheesy lyrics on the Great Gate of Kiev and gotten away with it? The album is a completely ridiculous gesture of rebellion that turns a familiar and well-loved classic into a weapon against the establishment. What makes it great is that it is such reckless fun. |
|
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
|
RockHound
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 03 2013
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 569
|
Posted: February 24 2015 at 21:07 |
ELP at their best was capable of jumping the shark and making people love it. Pictures at an Exhibition was way over the top - kind of like showing up at a canasta tournament with a howitzer. Who else could have stuck cheesy lyrics on the Great Gate of Kiev and gotten away with it? The album is a completely ridiculous gesture of rebellion that turns a familiar and well-loved classic into a weapon against the establishment. What makes it great is that it is such reckless fun.
The flying piano stunt at California Jam was regarded at the time by many as an equivalent of ELP jumping the shark. What kind of rock and roll is this? It was yet another example of reckless fun that was adored by the fans and hated by, well, just about everybody else.
Works kind of stumbled over the shark - and it was no longer so much fun because the band began taking itself more seriously, and the cracks were obvious. But the tour was great (still lots of reckless fun).
And then there's the infamous Love Beach album cover. Reckless as hell, but no fun at all. As was the case for so many great bands around that time, things were never the same again. I guess there's a limit to how many sharks you can jump.
|
|
SkeptiGal
Forum Newbie
Joined: February 24 2015
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4
|
Posted: February 24 2015 at 20:01 |
Yep- the bigger they are the harder they fall. ELP epitomized the rise and fall of prog. There was nowhere they could go but down after BSS. Definitely were targeted, unfairly, in many ways. Probably some of the most gifted musicians in rock, but loved and hated at the same time, even amongst themselves!
|
|
micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
|
Posted: February 24 2015 at 19:42 |
Gerinski wrote:
I don't think "jumping the shark" is the right expression for what ELP went through. As great as they were together it was always clear that they did not really fit naturally, like say, Lifeson Lee and Peart did in Rush. Emerson, Lake and Palmer were quite different musicians, they did some great stuff together but each had his own vision, and after their great success up to Brain Salad and the Welcome Back tour each of them felt powerful enough to demand his own vision to have a place, and Works I was the result. Not really a band album anymore but it still had plenty of top-class music. Works II was IMHO the turning point, and the Orchestral Tour failure had a huge negative effect especially on Emerson, he went into some depression because of that.
But "jumping the shark" implies that they went so far as to become ridiculous, and I don't think we can say that from ELP, they just got victims of their musical discrepancies and the period when the interest for that kind of music quickly vanished.
|
well said... ELP could be said to be the group that summed up 70's prog rock. What people loved about it....and more to the point.. they were the group that DEFINTELY summed up everything that people (i.e. critics and idiots with safety pins in their noses) hated about prog rock. They were the brightest flame.. thus had the biggest target painted upon them and when prog fell out of favor.. ELP was the obvious (and easy ) target. Thus they became perhaps the world's most reviled group. Why? not because they are bad. Hardly.. it is just because they (and prog rock) was such an easy target and since ELP was a band that everyone knew. It made more sense to sh*t all over them than groups like King Crimson or Genesis that had loyal but fringe fanclubs. ELP weren't prog rockers.. they were on the same level as Floyd, Zep and the Who in terms of notoriety, fame, popularity... what ever you want to call it.
Edited by micky - February 24 2015 at 19:44
|
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
|
|
SkeptiGal
Forum Newbie
Joined: February 24 2015
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4
|
Posted: February 24 2015 at 19:24 |
Works I was the beginning of the end. The whole concept of the individual sides for each was portentous. Then the whole orchestra fiasco. Cringeworthy, really. Compared to the glory of 1970-1974? I shake my head in disbelief how a band as marvelous as they were on their first five (6 if you count Welcome Back...) came out with stuff I really dislike in the late 70s. I compare it to the Moody Blues. Their essential 7 were sublime (my opinion) and I love most of what they did in that time period '67-'72. After that I can't even hear one note without cringing. They did a couple songs in 80s that were ok, but the 70s? Yuk. And yet I consider them, and ELP, to be in my top five fav bands. Rush- same thing. Their 80s 90s stuff I can't get into, but give me their good time 70s classics and I'm good to go.
Maybe my tastes stay the same but the musicians move on and I can't get over it. My problem then. I'm still listening to stuff from my youth (60s-70s) and loving that great music even more now! Once in a while I'll find a great "new" band (like Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson) but I can't help but go back to the old stuff.
|
|
Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5101
|
Posted: February 24 2015 at 17:29 |
I don't think "jumping the shark" is the right expression for what ELP went through. As great as they were together it was always clear that they did not really fit naturally, like say, Lifeson Lee and Peart did in Rush. Emerson, Lake and Palmer were quite different musicians, they did some great stuff together but each had his own vision, and after their great success up to Brain Salad and the Welcome Back tour each of them felt powerful enough to demand his own vision to have a place, and Works I was the result. Not really a band album anymore but it still had plenty of top-class music. Works II was IMHO the turning point, and the Orchestral Tour failure had a huge negative effect especially on Emerson, he went into some depression because of that.
But "jumping the shark" implies that they went so far as to become ridiculous, and I don't think we can say that from ELP, they just got victims of their musical discrepancies and the period when the interest for that kind of music quickly vanished.
|
|
Rednight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 18 2014
Location: Mar Vista, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 4807
|
Posted: February 24 2015 at 15:34 |
Wanorak wrote:
In the Hot Seat wasn't great so that would be my vote. Personally, Hallowed Be Thy Name is a great song!! | If you like bad, off Broadway show tunes.
|
|
cemego
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 18 2010
Location: Philadelphia PA
Status: Offline
Points: 498
|
Posted: February 24 2015 at 15:10 |
Definitely after Brain Salad Surgery it was going down hill fast. Although I really didn't think Love Beach was as bad as some would say. I think Love Beach was derailed by the stupid album cover and the title track. The officer and a gentleman bit wasnt bad. Canario is awesome. To be honest, I dont find Love Beach any better or worse than Black Moon or Hot Seat. I think Emerson, Lake and Powell album was possibly the only good thing they did after Brain Salad Surgery.
I still like the episode of Cheers where Rebecca Howe said she worked for the prestigious law firm, Emerson Lake & Palmer. HAHAHAHA! Maybe you've heard of them?!
|
listen to streaming stuff! no commercials!
http://wmom.servemp3.com:8000/listen.pls
|
|
richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26283
|
Posted: February 24 2015 at 14:20 |
Michael678 wrote:
when they reformed in 1977, based on what i know from their history. |
The Orchestral Tour? They lost a million dollars a gig and had to stop after 4. The music press certainly tore into them about that time but in my opinion the music was still largely intact and Works has some great tracks. Probably with hindsight they should have only released a single album maybe mixing up Volume One and Two and it might have played better with the public at least.
|
|
Michael678
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 02 2013
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2466
|
Posted: February 24 2015 at 14:09 |
when they reformed in 1977, based on what i know from their history.
|
Progrockdude
|
|
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.