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debrewguy View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 20:00
another bunch of words of wisdom from my favourite music writer ( and B S detector) Bob Lefsetz
as quoted in full from his Feb 3 email

"ALBUMS  vs SINGLES


There was a space in my bookcase where I kept my cash, waiting for four bucks to accumulate...then I went and bought an album, which I played again and again until I knew every cut, until I accumulated enough money to buy another, when I repeated the process.  You see, music was scarce.

Now it's plentiful.

Albums didn't always rule.  Actually, I was one of the few people addicted to the long player back in the early sixties, most people bought singles.  Why buy the album?  You really only wanted the hit.  But somewhere in the Beatles' ascendance, that changed.  Maybe with the single-less "Rubber Soul", certainly with "Sgt. Pepper".  The album was a statement.  Suddenly everyone was buying albums, listening to FM radio to find out what to purchase, to experiment with.  And then when these acts came to town, you went to see them.  Tickets were cheaper, it was little more expensive than seeing a movie...but that's a whole 'nother issue.  No, it's not.  Let's ask that question, what makes someone go to the show?

Assuming it's not a has-been, not a classic rock act, what motivates the average person to overpay to go to the extravaganza?  The hit.  People didn't know much more than the Spice Girls' "Wannabe", they were caught up in the hoopla.  And hoopla still exists, especially if you're like GaGa and put together a string of hits, but how about everybody else?  How many people can have that many hits?  How many can have hits at all?

The listening experience is completely different from the sixties.  Today, there's too much choice.  I'm not starving for music at home, I've got a plethora of services, but anyone can listen to everything via MySpace/YouTube/LaLa.  What are they going to listen to?  Are they going to listen to the album?

Ever marvel at how a youngster multitasks, appears not to be overwhelmed by media?  That's because kids today are only interested in great.  They'll dig deep on something that fascinates them, otherwise they're just interested in the headlines.

There's too much information.  And the way today's youngsters deal with it is to separate the wheat from the chaff.  They're interested in the hit single, but they're not about to pay ten plus bucks for an album and play it over and over again to get it, that paradigm is THROUGH!

Really, don't see the album/single debate from the perspective of the artist, certainly don't look at it from the perspective of the record label, look at it from the perspective of the listener.

The listener wants great music.  He's building a library, a playlist, it's akin to the early sixties, when singles ruled.  Why buy the album?  What are the odds the rest of the tracks are great?  Very low.  Furthermore, the album's not a deal.  At least in the sixties there was an economic incentive to purchase the long player, that doesn't exist in the digital world.  Maybe if the album were five bucks instead of ten plus.  But then people still wouldn't listen to anything but the hit anyway.

In other words, the game we've been playing has died.  Almost completely.  And it's only going to get worse.  And if you're playing the old way and bitching, you're missing the point.

If you're satisfied with the audience you've got and you want to satiate this small coterie with a collection of ten tracks, be my guest.  But those not fans will ignore your long player, they don't care, it's too much music to penetrate, they're not convinced it's worth dedicating the TIME, if a single cut bubbles to the surface they're interested, but they're not going on a fruitless hunt.

So, if you're making an album as an economic vehicle, a product that can blow up and rain coin into your pocketbook, you're screwed, it just doesn't happen like that anymore, because almost no one has got the time to listen to anything but your best work.

A head-scratcher, I know.  I'll give you an example.

I love One eskimO's "Kandi".  I've listened to it at least fifty times, the same way we wore out singles in the days of yore.  But have I played the entire album?  Oh, I gave it a shot.  But it doesn't sound anything like "Kandi".  What I mean is it doesn't have that sly R&B sound, and with thousands of other cuts on my iPod, I gravitate to them.  In other words, our collections today are not albums, but a playlist of singles.

Now this has huge impact on the business, everything from acts to labels to concert promoters.

Acts are going to inherently make less money, after all, people want less of their music.  And those who are interested in a complete album are very few.  Those days of ten million people buying the album just to get the single are done, they died with Napster, they're never coming back, the cherry-picking world of iTunes rules.  If you want to last, you've got to super-serve a small coterie of fans.  Don't tour the world, don't go for world domination, just satisfy your fans, because a fan will come see you live, will buy your merch.

Record labels...  Suddenly, they've lost most of their revenue, and it's never coming back.  You may be selling many more of one, but no one cares about the other nine cuts on the album.  You shouldn't even make them, shouldn't even bother.  Maximize revenue from the single.  And scale back, knowing that the glory days are done.

Concert promoters?  Who's going to come see the acts?  In quantity?

That's one reason festivals rule.  You get to graze.  Most of these acts can play to very few solo, aggregate them and people get to sample, immediately giving a thumbs-up or a thumbs-down.  Your festival appearance is crucial, you must kill, this is where you convince people to come see you again, but odds are most people won't.

But none of this is bad for music.  In the aggregate, people are listening to more music than ever before.  It's just that rather than being limited to three networks, there are five hundred channels.  Rather than being limited to what's in the theatre, they've got Netflix.

And when the CD dies?  And no matter what you read, it's on its way out, there's not going to be anywhere to buy it, sure there will be some indie stores, but so many of those have died, people will start wondering why you ever aggregated ten tracks together, the same way a kid today doesn't understand an 8-track or a cassette.  Once the physical format dies, the whole construct is kaput.

So what's a new act to do?

First question its dedication.  Do you want to play in this new world?  Where a few beat-infused tracks can get airplay on Top Forty and succeed but people don't have to listen to Top Forty?  Are you willing to work really hard for far less, knowing that mass success is not in the offing?

If so, woodshed until you create that one listen track.  That's your main hope of your music spreading.  A cut so good people will tell others about it.  Will put it in their playlist and keep it in rotation.  Then you've got to come up with another.  And another.

And chances are, you can't.

Which is why you read about scenes in Brooklyn and the bands never reach ubiquity, because the average joe just doesn't care, doesn't get it.  But people like Owl City's "Fireflies".  As for the rest of the album, do you even need it?

This isn't about Apple.  This isn't about the labels.  It's not about the acts.  It's about the audience.  We've got incredible sh*t detectors.  More music at our fingertips than we can ever listen to.  And believe me, we want to listen.  But only to what's great.  Can you blame us?
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 15:27

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I think in some respects, the DIY prog artists who do not have all of the criteria you've described in your original post are gaining more currency for me than much of the major label stuff, and I partly think it is because they are not trying to figure what is going to sell the most units or try to achieve some unestablished standard.

I don't know of many Prog artist who are trying to figure out what is going to sell the most units, even those few who are signed to a major label (ie Roadrunner, given that they are owned by WMG) - but what of Cuneiform, Musea, ReR, Tzadik, Inside/Out, Mellow, BTF, Black Widow, Lizard, Burning Shed, Cherry Red, Magna Carta, Intact, ProgRock and all the other small independent labels that feed our selective market? Are any of those labels releasing commercially oriented albums, or albums that haven't achieved this unestablished standard? Now consider all the single band labels like DGM, Toff, Firefly and Fei! that are essentially artists self-releasing their own music, what of them? They have set an unestablished standard and proved that it can be done on a budget.

As you can gather, I despair of the prevalent attitude that labels are big bad monsters that are bent on limiting an artists creativity in order to sell albums - sure those things happen to some mainstream artists on really major labels, but frankly, those artists aren't that interested in being creative and even when those labels release Prog artists (eg VdGG and EMI) they don't interfere with the artist's creative output anything like as much as people here seem to think.
 
I'll say it again - Self Release is great and if you sell less than 15K, or even 20K, albums in a lifetime (let alone a year) it is certainly the best way and probably the only way to make any money in this "business". And even if an artist is not interested in making money or dislikes the uncomfortable reality that peddling their art is a business, then they still must want some recognition and desire to reach as many people who would like their music as they possibly can or they wouldn't waste time energy and effort pushing their self-released material out into the world. And if that is not true either then don't call it Self-released.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 13:09
Originally posted by redorchid redorchid wrote:

Wonderful post!! And I have to agree 100% with the author. It may sound odd coming from another independent artist but what Dean mentioned up front is the brutal truth of the industry. You really need to cover all your basis in order to go anywhere. Unfortunately a product does not end when it is created, it is how its delivered. I am learning a lot myself, specially the internet ways which is new to me. In process you do some dumb f**k things Wink but its all part of learning and a step forward. It is also clear from his post that he is not against indie bands, the point is that to be recognized with the best you need to deliver the same or close enough quality. Nothing wrong with that..


Now in support of such bands, there is the other side to it i.e. the lack of means, finances and support structure to deliver this product.  So what do you do? The question they need to ask is why are they creating music in the first place. And I am pretty confident most do it for pleasure and love of it, the monetary gains if any may come later, specially for a prog artist otherwise you would be busy making radio friendly hits and dream to be another Nickleback. Let's face it, the money from sales would probably not even cover the most basic equipment cost, forget about living a decent living. The moment you start otherwise, you are all messed up...seriously.

 



Well put, and to that I would add that some of us like to stay busy and will play creative stuff for less money and/or less creative stuff for more money, or sometimes something in between or any combination of the two. Likewise there is no garuntee that playing something creative is definitely going to mean no money, sometimes you can have it both ways.

What I personally find almost impossible to do is play something I really don't like just for money, I'd rather do some other work entirely. Likewise I also find it impossible to work in a musical situation where certain standards aren't being met, I just can't do it.

Edited by Easy Money - February 03 2010 at 13:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 11:52

Wonderful post!! And I have to agree 100% with the author. It may sound odd coming from another independent artist but what Dean mentioned up front is the brutal truth of the industry. You really need to cover all your basis in order to go anywhere. Unfortunately a product does not end when it is created, it is how its delivered. I am learning a lot myself, specially the internet ways which is new to me. In process you do some dumb f**k things Wink but its all part of learning and a step forward. It is also clear from his post that he is not against indie bands, the point is that to be recognized with the best you need to deliver the same or close enough quality. Nothing wrong with that..

Now in support of such bands, there is the other side to it i.e. the lack of means, finances and support structure to deliver this product.  So what do you do? The question they need to ask is why are they creating music in the first place. And I am pretty confident most do it for pleasure and love of it, the monetary gains if any may come later, specially for a prog artist otherwise you would be busy making radio friendly hits and dream to be another Nickleback. Let's face it, the money from sales would probably not even cover the most basic equipment cost, forget about living a decent living. The moment you start otherwise, you are all messed up...seriously.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 08:39
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Rubbish. I know from my own experience in rap that persistence counts more than talent. Trash rappers who won't take no for an answer end up signed a lot more than interesting ones who are laid-back about it.
Well, from my own experience good demos always got me better gigs than bad demos. Otherwise, why even bother making a good demo since making a bad one is so much easier.



 

 

What constitutes "good", and what constitutes "bad"?

 

Tongue



Both words can be found in the dictionary in case there is any confusion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 08:33
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I've got to disagree.

People are morons.  They flock to lots of things that are terrible.  The music industry kind of depends on this.

Actually they don't, but that is neither here nor there. We're not "people" or morons and Prog don't work like that.


Present company excluded.  Embarrassed 

All I meant by that comment was that the lowest common denominated is very often what is catered to.  It is what sells.  The Bachelor is in its fourteen season for crying out loud.  Dead 

Or movies: Did you get a chance to see the Mike Myers live-action rendition of Cat in the Hat?  I didn't know Dr. Suess's work needed farts, pee, and double-entendres about "hoes" to make it work.  Even Giesel's widow, owner of the rights to his work, won't allow any other live action films to be made due to this.

I think in some respects, the DIY prog artists who do not have all of the criteria you've described in your original post are gaining more currency for me than much of the major label stuff, and I partly think it is because they are not trying to figure what is going to sell the most units or try to achieve some unestablished standard.


And wait...we're not people?  Shocked
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 05:16
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 06:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 04:26
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:



I've never believed in this line of reasoning re the fledgling listener. You might get say, 1 in a 100 kids who respond positively to hearing nothing but avant-garde music but you're left with 99 little pups who never want to hear any music ever again if it all sounds like daddy strangling a balloon animal . The core elements (in the west) that make certain musical effects satisfying to the untrained ear, are not arbitrary i.e. they are all contained and reinforced heavily in mainstream pop music:

A steady pulse
Short melodic phrases that are easy to remember (erm...catchiness ?)
Repetition
simple harmonies that resolve quickly to the tonic
The damn stuff is usually heavily compressed so that even the quieter dynamics are loud etc

I'm not qualified to say if any of the above phenomena are culturally or socially defined but such 'hooks' have been around far longer than any particular musical genre and despite the best efforts of progressive musicians since Robert Fripp was in short pants, will surely outlast them all.


The hooks you are talking about are cultural. They are conventions, standards and agreements between people. Just like languages. You won't see a Chinese child stand up and say "I don't like this language, the characters are too complicated, I'm gonna try English" (in Chinese). How can you question the only thing you know?

I lived in Crete for a period and they have a very limited import of foreign music:

For some reason it reminds me of a trapped insect and I find it very hard to enjoy. This was, however, the music that the vast majority of people, old as well as young, was into.

I DO however agree with you that you will not likely enjoy music that you associate with unpleasantness.


The Cretan ? music was actually OK (not a single creepy crawlie in bondage to my earsWink)
However, apart from the alien textures of the instrumentation and ethnic scales it employs, it also obeys to the letter, all the 'hooks' I alluded to before (although it hardly ever bothers to move from the tonic at all)

Sorry to be so contrary but I'm always suspicious of direct comparisons between an abstract aesthetic phenomenon (instrumental music) and one which codifies sounds to signify concepts (language)

Perhaps I should have stated that something like the 'steady pulse' or 'resolution to the tonic' are somehow psychologically satisfying to we human critters (and yes agreed, this unanimity would manifest itself as a convention or standard in the culture)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 03:56
Ok Lets try this
 
Your'e not gonna like the song you once liked if YOU ARE HUNGRY

assume the power 1586/14.3
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 03:54
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Rubbish. I know from my own experience in rap that persistence counts more than talent. Trash rappers who won't take no for an answer end up signed a lot more than interesting ones who are laid-back about it.


Well, from my own experience good demos always got me better gigs than bad demos. Otherwise, why even bother making a good demo since making a bad one is so much easier.
 
 
What constitutes "good", and what constitutes "bad"?
 
Tongue
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 03:42
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 07:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 03:39
I think that artists, any artist, should be able to promote their music through theses channels. To believe that you are good, to want acceptance is good,. It makes the artist believe that their dream is real. I am an artist, but I fear rejection and therefore I don't subject myself to that rejection. Take Epignosis for example, his music is him. If I don't give it a five-star rating on the music, I sure would give it high marks because he produced the whole thing and I know He has taken some ribbing for it, but it IS beautiful to hear. That progarchives can do this for any artist is, for the first time, righteous.  People have their humanlike tendencies> They'll do whatever they think they can get away with and, yeah its all avain, to the extent that we ENJOY our recreations and we want to be told we are good. The members of Progarchives are all extremely gifted and this is a GOOD website.  Thanks Max,etc
The Library of Progressive Archives reminds us, or should anyone, that great great talents are out there, not "In Here'.
 
But, by all means, Let the children Play 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 03:37
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I would say that personal taste can define what group one finds themself in

It's probably a combination of both, and quite age-dependant too as to which has the greater effect.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 03:00
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 

Do you genuinely believe that if avant-garde rock was played on the radio - let's say for, what, a year - that magically the music-listening world would somehow 'see the light'?  That in a fit of wisdom and sophistication  they'd throw out their Sting, Alanis Morissette, Pink, Van Halen, and Stevie Nicks, converted to some new Bohemianism that rejects all that has - or had - wide appeal?

I doubt it.  And besides, who is anyone to say they're wrong.  It takes a certain talent to songsmith, something most prog musicians wouldn't know if it bit them on their pale, bony asses.


No, that would be quite ridiculous of course. LOL  But my guess is that it would take less than a few decades to "turn things around". Many kids nowadays don't know what a vinyl record is. Why? Because no one has told them. If you grow up (passively) listening to avant garde and avant garde only, that will be your point reference. Just like you learn to speak English if you grow up in America and Chinese if you grow up in China.


I've never believed in this line of reasoning re the fledgling listener. You might get say, 1 in a 100 kids who respond positively to hearing nothing but avant-garde music but you're left with 99 little pups who never want to hear any music ever again if it all sounds like daddy strangling a balloon animal . The core elements (in the west) that make certain musical effects satisfying to the untrained ear, are not arbitrary i.e. they are all contained and reinforced heavily in mainstream pop music:

A steady pulse
Short melodic phrases that are easy to remember (erm...catchiness ?)
Repetition
simple harmonies that resolve quickly to the tonic
The damn stuff is usually heavily compressed so that even the quieter dynamics are loud etc

I'm not qualified to say if any of the above phenomena are culturally or socially defined but such 'hooks' have been around far longer than any particular musical genre and despite the best efforts of progressive musicians since Robert Fripp was in short pants, will surely outlast them all.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:49
^ I would say that personal taste can define what group one finds themself in

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:44
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

 
I've got to disagree.
People are morons.  They flock to lots of things that are terrible.  The music industry kind of depends on this.


I'd say people (the masses) eat what they're being fed and flock around what they have been conditioned to flock around. Imagine if all radio and TV stations would play only avant garde music. You can be sure people would start buying avant garde records.


I don't see it--  the assumption that people don't really like what in fact they do is a bit bizarre:  pop music is what it is because it most suits popular tastes, like it or not.  I occasionally enjoy fine dining but I much prefer a real, good old fashioned meal.  Does that mean I have an unsophisticated palate?   No, I've been cooking my whole life, had unbelievably great meals that cost $100 per person and grilled cheese sandwiches that were far better.

People consume what they enjoy most until they no longer enjoy it.



I think it is more accurate to say that people like what their friends like, that to some extent personal taste can be overwritten by the need to fit in with the group.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:40

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I've got to disagree.

People are morons.  They flock to lots of things that are terrible.  The music industry kind of depends on this.

Actually they don't, but that is neither here nor there. We're not "people" or morons and Prog don't work like that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:30
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Rubbish. I know from my own experience in rap that persistence counts more than talent. Trash rappers who won't take no for an answer end up signed a lot more than interesting ones who are laid-back about it.
Are you putting this forward as a good system worth emulating in Prog Rock circles? Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:26
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 07:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:12
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 

I don't see it--  the assumption that people don't really like what in fact they do is a bit bizarre:  pop music is what it is because it most suits popular tastes, like it or not.  I occasionally enjoy fine dining but I much prefer a real, good old fashioned meal.  Does that mean I have an unsophisticated palate?   No, I've been cooking my whole life, had unbelievably great meals that cost $100 per person and grilled cheese sandwiches that were far better.

People consume what they enjoy most until they no longer enjoy it.

Is it bizarre really? You're assuming that people choose freely between options. I don't believe that's the case. Let's say you've been growing up to listening to MOR all your life. What are the chances you plunge into progressive rock all of a sudden? Further, imagine traditional Indian, African or Asian traditional music. They're considered popular in their respective locations but how much do they have in common with each other and with Western traditional music? You would expect if there was common notion of "popular" there would be similarities.


Do you genuinely believe that if avant-garde rock was played on the radio - let's say for, what, a year - that magically the music-listening world would somehow 'see the light'?  That in a fit of wisdom and sophistication  they'd throw out their Sting, Alanis Morissette, Pink, Van Halen, and Stevie Nicks, converted to some new Bohemianism that rejects all that has - or had - wide appeal?

I doubt it.  And besides, who is anyone to say they're wrong.  It takes a certain talent to songsmith, something most prog musicians wouldn't know if it bit them on their pale, bony asses.




Edited by Atavachron - February 03 2010 at 02:13
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