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Yanns
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 25 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 999
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Posted: January 05 2006 at 23:23 |
BePinkTheater wrote:
How dare you... shame on you
I mean cmon, like seriously. This thread angers me.
A great band with brilliantly orignal ideas and f**king great playing being compared to emo basards you put 5 minutes of car noises on a song and call it innovative!
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I'm just wondering, how much TMV have you heard?
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captainbeyond
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 84
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Posted: January 05 2006 at 22:46 |
In case it's even close to necessary, let me reiterate what Pafnutij just wrote: they are TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT BANDS WITH TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT STYLES. MO were a jazz-rock band with some Indian influences. MV are a modern prog rock band an emo background with some vague Hispanic influences and almost no jazz influence.
I love MV and saw them play several years ago in front of 300 people and three times since. I love them and consider them to be possibly the best current exemplar of the prog essence. HOWEVER, their guitarist cannot hold McLaughlin's jockstrap. To even consider is simply absurd (check out not only the MO albums but also the Friday Night in San Francisco album with McLaughlin, Paco DeLucia and Al DiMeola). Moreover, after seeing them play several times, I think their ensemble interplay leaves much to be desired whereas MO are probably the greatest jazz-rock band to ever plug in.
If you're going to compare MV to any classic prog band, I think it would make more sense to compare them to Yes, in terms of their actually mixture of structure and soloing, high-pitched male singer, etc.
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Pafnutij
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: Russian Federation
Status: Offline
Points: 415
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Posted: January 05 2006 at 22:26 |
They're two totally different bands playing totally different stuff. Besides, Mahavishnu pwns Volta. I always thought the latter were innovative strictly on a mainstream level.
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liquidtheater
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 06 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 71
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Posted: January 05 2006 at 22:20 |
BePinkTheater wrote:
How dare you... shame on you
I mean cmon, like seriously. This thread angers me.
A great band with brilliantly orignal ideas and f**king great playing being compared to emo basards you put 5 minutes of car noises on a song and call it innovative!
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Dream Sequencer System Offline
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BePinkTheater
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1381
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Posted: January 05 2006 at 22:01 |
How dare you... shame on you
I mean cmon, like seriously. This thread angers me.
A great band with brilliantly orignal ideas and f**king great playing being compared to emo basards you put 5 minutes of car noises on a song and call it innovative!
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I can strangle a canary in a tin can and it would be really original, but that wouldn't save it from sounding like utter sh*t. -Stone Beard
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Crimsoner
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 20 2005
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 57
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Posted: January 05 2006 at 20:15 |
Out of touch (the first comment)
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Just BE!
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alan_pfeifer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 823
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Posted: January 05 2006 at 19:33 |
I fail to see how quantity holds sway over quality. Not that I'm denying the talent of those involved with the Orchestra, but the Volta-Mahavishnu link has been stated before. It's nothing new.
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Someo Therguy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 274
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Posted: January 05 2006 at 19:09 |
jtdotto wrote:
i don't think anyone is disbuting the fact that MO has more recorded music than the mars volta. MO started in the 70's, the mars volta started in 2001. MO has a good 30 years on the mars volta. all i was saying is that i know MO is an inspiration of the mars volta, and as far as contemporary music goes, the mars volta are the closest thing to them.
Actually what you said was "i think that the mars volta are a modern day mahavishnu orchestra"
oh wait, i forgot. lets see, i got all of the mars volta's full lengths, including their live album. i got their ep, and i have singles of live versions and weird improvisation stuff. i got omar's solo project and am working on getting his quintet cd, i one of the two de facto records, 2 of at the drive-in's records, you know, their 'punk' band before the mars volta, and have been to their key arena show. but i'm gonna count that show as 8 shows
I think you may have misunderstood here. By listing the various albums Ive heard by MO as well as the number of side projects and other settings I've encountered the members in I was trying to make it clear that I think a statement like your primary thesis is premature. TMV just does not have enough material to make such a statement, IMO.
just because i can. i can play all of deloused and frances on guitar (well) and am in a band that writes awesome music.
I don't see how your ability to play awesome music has any bearing on the topic at hand.
just had to list my share of personal accomplishments.
Thanks.
cuz you know, thats what this topic is about. anyone else care to share?
Boast? No.
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jtdotto
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 29 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 18
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Posted: January 05 2006 at 18:13 |
Someo Therguy wrote:
A quick look in the archive shows 10 albums by Mahavishnu Orchestra (I own 4), 5 by John McLaughlin with Shakti are listed (I've got 2) and who knows how many solo CDs he has? I've got at least 8 Billy Cobham albums in my collection and I've seen him in concert 7 times - also a drum clinic. I know I've got 3 Jan Hammer discs, I have Jerry Goodman on the Maha discs as well as 3 Dixie Dregs CDs and I've seen him perform with the Dixie Dregs three times.
There are only three full leangth albums listed of The Mars Volta.
| i don't think anyone is disbuting the fact that MO has more recorded music than the mars volta. MO started in the 70's, the mars volta started in 2001. MO has a good 30 years on the mars volta. all i was saying is that i know MO is an inspiration of the mars volta, and as far as contemporary music goes, the mars volta are the closest thing to them. oh wait, i forgot. lets see, i got all of the mars volta's full lengths, including their live album. i got their ep, and i have singles of live versions and weird improvisation stuff. i got omar's solo project and am working on getting his quintet cd, i one of the two de facto records, 2 of at the drive-in's records, you know, their 'punk' band before the mars volta, and have been to their key arena show. but i'm gonna count that show as 8 shows just because i can. i can play all of deloused and frances on guitar (well) and am in a band that writes awesome music. just had to list my share of personal accomplishments. cuz you know, thats what this topic is about. anyone else care to share?
Edited by jtdotto
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RoyalJelly
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 29 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 582
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Posted: January 05 2006 at 07:48 |
Let's not forget one of the greatest keyboardists of the 70s, Jan Hammer...his Moog soloing was probably the best of any of his compatriots next to Moraz and Emerson, and much more influential in the fusion world. I'll also plug his brilliant solo album from 1976 The First Seven Days, IMHO the best multi- keyboard album ever made.
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Someo Therguy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 274
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Posted: January 05 2006 at 03:31 |
A quick look in the archive shows 10 albums by Mahavishnu Orchestra (I own 4), 5 by John McLaughlin with Shakti are listed (I've got 2) and who knows how many solo CDs he has? I've got at least 8 Billy Cobham albums in my collection and I've seen him in concert 7 times - also a drum clinic. I know I've got 3 Jan Hammer discs, I have Jerry Goodman on the Maha discs as well as 3 Dixie Dregs CDs and I've seen him perform with the Dixie Dregs three times.
There are only three full leangth albums listed of The Mars Volta.
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FRIPP HOW?
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 22 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 39
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Posted: January 05 2006 at 00:12 |
all of this is new and interesting. thanks/nice post!
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"Mention this to me. mention something, anything.. and watch the weather change."
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Hierophant
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 11 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 651
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Posted: January 04 2006 at 20:48 |
Eh...sorry i'm not seeing the connection
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alan_pfeifer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 823
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Posted: January 04 2006 at 20:34 |
Jon has said Numerous times that he lloks up to Cobham alot.....and Billy did 4 sticks on a set? Flipping awesome.
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BleedingGum
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 257
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Posted: January 04 2006 at 20:30 |
TMV is great.. but MO, it is not as neat as Mahavishnu...
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...this is called....BleedingGum ... !
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Yanns
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 25 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 999
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Posted: January 04 2006 at 20:16 |
I don't see many similarities in the music for each band.
In playing, maybe.
But I do prefer The Mars Volta at this point. MO are great, but it's all a matter of taste.
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jtdotto
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 29 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 18
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Posted: January 04 2006 at 19:30 |
definitely, i will be checking these guys as soon as i get to a record store. and i would agree mclaughlin is the better player...techinique wise...i think omar is a more creative writer...but hey only one song heard (MO) to literally everything (TMV) so i can't really say. i'm just saying, i can hear who omar tries to be, at least live. by the way jon theodore mentions billy cobham as his top influence. not a bad one i say. i would say 'meeting the spirits' has a definite amount of feeling and depth into the song. i only hope that amount of feeling and depth is put into the other songs on the album, whichever i get. taking into account all contemporary music, i think TMV are the closest thing to MO. and you know omar is gonna be a huge influence on future guitar players. just my opinion.
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12803
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Posted: January 04 2006 at 10:44 |
There was an interesting article about TMV in Mojo in the last 18
months, which included (in chronological order) a brief
discography/review of artists/albums which have influences: KC's
ITCOTCK and MO's BoF were the first two albums listed. Great prog rock
which can hybridise such a desparate range of musics into one.... I
still have a sneaking regard for the phrase one Amazon.UK writer, who
titled his Francis The Mute piece 'The Cuban King Crimson' - works up
to a point.
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12803
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Posted: January 04 2006 at 09:36 |
meurglysIII wrote:
^We musn't forget the keyboard playing of Jan Hammer either. His work
with MO is really great. I haven't heard any of his solo material
though.
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Jan Hammer produced a fine
range of jazz rock going pop before the fall and Miami Vice (but I
guess it pays the pension). The best jazz rock not on CD is Jan Hammer Group's Oh Yeah, but most other stuff is out on CD:
An album which possibile pre-dates MO, issue don the German label BASF.
Early Days is sampler of the earlier Nemperor LP recordings by JH
Melodies
(Wounded Bird) finds Hammer shifting out of jazz rock into funky pop.
(There is an obcure live Melodies album, issued to radio stations
origially, which can be found with difficulty)
Black Sheep/Hammer
has been just issued remastered by JH on Wounded Bird - a bit of
a demonstration that keys could equal Hendrix style guitar ????!!!!
(Colin Hodgkinson on vocals and eventually bass).
Like Children (pop rock, fusion etc.) done immediately after leaving MO with Jerry Goodman, was supposed to have been issued on CD last year but.......
Jan Hammer is on several of the Al DiMeola earlier albums - Tour De Force and Scenario (some critic suggested this was the last good jazz-rock album of the 70's) are suggested.
Again strong presence on both Tony Williams' Joy Of Flying and Stanley Clarke's
eponymous second album (with Tony Williams and the neglected Bill
Connors, a great one-off quartet of jazzrock/funk). Part of the reason
for the timelessness of Billy Cobham's Spectrum, (also check out the T ommy Bolin Archive recordings for other unexpected guest appearances by Hammer -e.g. a great alternative to MO's Sister Andrea on Vol 1 with Bolin/Hammer recording of the demo version)
Replaced Max Middleton as Jeff Beck's jazz mentor during Wired and then thru' to There & Back. Middleton btw was on 3rd and 4th Jeff Beck solo albums, 3 albums with Hummingbird, and
an album with Robert Awai before becoming Chris Rea's keyboardist for 15
years. Toured with Beck last year as it happens.
And last time doing jazz rock fusion on record?? Present on one track of a Steve Clarke's Network recording made in the late 90's ; also check out the Network compilation - a strange hybrid of death metal and fusion....
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Phil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 17 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1881
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Posted: January 04 2006 at 04:12 |
Interesting thread. I pretty much agree with what's been said....I like
both, but especially am a fan of early Mahavishnu Orchestra. Mahavishnu
were really jazz-rock or "fusion" based whereas TMV are less easy to
categorise. If it hasn't been said before, the Mahavishnu Orchestra
were entirely instrumental, at least in their first (and IMO best)
incarnation. John McLaughlin was big into improvisation, especially in
the first incarnation of the band, with Jan ("Miami Vice") Hammer on
keyboards and Jerry Goodman on violin. Not forgetting the excellent
Billy Cobham on drums though it must be said that Jon Theodore is no
slouch! I would try to get hold of their first album, "Inner Mounting
Flame", which has a looser feeling about it than its more structured
follow up, "Birds of Fire".
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