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Sean Trane 
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19696
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 Posted: August 15 2006 at 03:31 |
 maani wrote:
Hmm....
As the person who argued most vociferously not include Queen on PA (and in fact all but left the site over that debate), I will say only this:
If Queen is re-categorized as Symphonic Prog, I will create and introduce into PA a powerful virus that will change the Yes page into the Barry Manilow page, the Genesis page into the Lionel Ritchie page, the King Crimson page into the George Michael page, the Dream Theater page into the Britney Spears page, and the Pink Floyd page into the Kenny G page - just to name a few!
Peace. (or maybe not...) |
And I, Sir, will be your first supporter in this matter 
GG page into Celine Dion
and VdGG into Mariah Carey
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: August 14 2006 at 22:53 |
maani wrote:
Hmm....
As the person who argued most vociferously not include Queen on PA (and in fact all but left the site over that debate), I will say only this:
If Queen is re-categorized as Symphonic Prog, I will create and introduce into PA a powerful virus that will change the Yes page into the Barry Manilow page, the Genesis page into the Lionel Ritchie page, the King Crimson page into the George Michael page, the Dream Theater page into the Britney Spears page, and the Pink Floyd page into the Kenny G page - just to name a few!
Peace. (or maybe not...) |
Don't need for virtual terroruism Maani
While this team is in charge of Symphonic, Queen won't pass into our beloved genre.
I believe they are OK in Prog Related, they had their proggy moments and a few really Prog songs, but not enough to pass that barrier.
Iván
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator
Joined: January 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2632
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Posted: August 14 2006 at 21:41 |
Hmm....
As the person who argued most vociferously not include Queen on PA (and in fact all but left the site over that debate), I will say only this:
If Queen is re-categorized as Symphonic Prog, I will create and introduce into PA a powerful virus that will change the Yes page into the Barry Manilow page, the Genesis page into the Lionel Ritchie page, the King Crimson page into the George Michael page, the Dream Theater page into the Britney Spears page, and the Pink Floyd page into the Kenny G page - just to name a few!
Peace. (or maybe not...)
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: August 14 2006 at 18:54 |
toolis wrote:
so the problem is that Queen instead of writing epics (irrelevant to being prog or not)
Epic is a term bad applied to long tracks, epic means much more. The term was taken from the Movie mostly the famous 1950's pictures by Cecil B De Mills, they were long (Most of them) but the term goes further an Epic has to be related to historic, religious or warrior issues, so a song IMO doesn't need to be long to be an Epic, I believe for example that Can-Utility and the Coastliners is a small epic.
Queen didn't had epics (Neither many long songs) and even when it's not mandatory for Symphonic bands to have Epics and long songs, an average of 12 tracks in 40 minutes is not common in Prog.
But this is only ONE of MANY characteristics that Queen doesn't have.
they presented all these elements of different genres spread to 10 tracks instead of three even though the total time of their albums is the same to all other 'prog bands'
You are mixing apples and oranges:
- If you blend multiple genres with Rock in one track, you probably are playing a Progressive song even when not all the bands that blend more than one genre are Prog, but this is one of the main characteristics of Prog, if you don't have it, you are not Prog.
- If you play different genres in different songs, you're nothing but versatile, this is not a blend or mixture of genres, just the capacity of playing different genres of music, Queen did this.
and that instead of keyboards had a looot of piano (you can't argue with that...)
Queen is a band that based their sound mainly in the vocals of Freddie plus the guitar of Brian May and an elaborate choral arrangement, piano (No synths) were only some extra ornament.
playing classical themes
Queen never had a Classical structure, they added some complex choral arrangements and orchestration but this doesn't make them Prog, Paul Mauriat, James Last and Ray Coniff played with full Orchestras and were nothing but Muzac even when one of them performed ELP songs (Heard Lucky Man by one of them and almost induced me to vomit).
and you fail to recognise the 'anti-commercial' Queen of the '73-'79 period but insist on the 80's when basically many bands that are considered prog in here went pop...
In first place I don't care for post "A Day At The Races Queen" or even mentioned it, News of the world had some moments but nothing else and Jazz is only Pop, but even in their early years Queen was a commercial band, lets see:
- Queen I: An eclectic Rock album "Keep Yourself Alive" is simply a Rock song; "Doing all Right" is a piano intro with guitar riffs (Excellent BTW), ballad structure and again piano closing good track with some Prog moments; "Great King Rat" is just Hard Rock with a lot of wah wah guitar; "My Fairy King" is a 100% Prog track but closer to Medieval Folk than to Symphonic; "Liar" is close to Metal; "The Night Comes Down" another weak Rock track with no Prog relation; "Modern Times Rock & Roll" has to be one of the worst Queen tracks a little mediocre Rock track; "Son & Daughter" is a controversial song for those days but nothing special 5 years later, they sounded like Led Zeppelin wannabes; "Jesus", I correct myself, this is the worst track of the album, Brian May sounds awful and "Seven Seas of Rye" is nothing special either, good song but plain Rock.
- Queen II: It's too long and boring to check song by song so lets say this is their most Prog album, but closer to some sort of operatic Hard Rock than to Symphonic, genre with which has absolutely no relation.
- Sheer Heart Attack: Great album but even heavier than the previous, absolutely no relation with Symphonic and again closer to Hard Rock than to Prog.
- A Night at the Opera: Wonderful album, well balanced, very eclectic and versatile, but no relation with Symphonic, "Death on Two Legs", "I'm in Love with my Car" and Sweet Lady" are pure hard rock, "Lazing on a Sunday Afternoon", "Seaside Rendezvous" and "Good Company" is almost Vaudeville or Music Hall tracks; "You're my Best Friend" is a simple tune enhanced by the incredible vocals of Freddie as well as "39"; "Prophet's Song" is a real Art Rock track, very heavy, obscure but again no connection with Symphonic; Bohemian Rhapsody is also a hard rock track with an extravagant operatic intermezzo and moments of Power Ballad; "God Save the Queen" is just a joke. Excellent album, deserves 4 stars (According to our guidelines because it's not a Prog album) but 5 stars in Rock history, despite this credentials, again NOT A SINGLE SYMPHONIC INSTANT.
- A Day at the Races: I rated this album with 4 stars, but again not a single Symphonic moment, if you want more info, check my review because I'm tired of writing . Just say that the closest they get to Symphonic is "Teo Torriate" a traditional Japanese track but due to their ethnic sound could be qualified as Prog Folk material, but only related because at the end is just a ballad. Before you mention it, no, not even "Millionaire Waltz" is Symphonic because they don't blend styles, just play a Vienna like Waltz with Rock instruments. Simply love this album, it was part of my youth but I can't find the slightest Symphonic connection.
All this albums are ESSENTIALLY commercial, great music of course but commercial and their latest albums get poppier each time.
So again; Where in hell can you find the Symphonic sound?
THIS IS LAME...
No, it's not lame, because I'm talking about musical influences and not about personal tastes I can say it's a fact (At least from my perspective and experience) and I guess most people would agree.
sorry you can't argue my case...
Sorry...What case????????
Iván
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: August 14 2006 at 12:28 |
toolis wrote:
sorry you can't argue my case... |
I'm sorry but, like Ivan says, you have no case. But then again, if you have no case, of course he can't argue it.
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aapatsos
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: November 11 2005
Location: Manchester, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 9226
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Posted: August 14 2006 at 10:04 |
one of the best Queen songs ever...
Now you realise from whom SOAD were influenced...
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toolis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 26 2006
Location: MacedoniaGreece
Status: Offline
Points: 1678
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Posted: August 14 2006 at 03:22 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
toolis wrote:
The main characteristics of Symphonic are the ones that defined all Progressive Rock: (There's nothing 100% new under the sun) which among others are: Mixture of elements from different genres: I don't think so, they were eclectic but most of their material is pure Rock with soime Orchestral or vocal arrangements, but the main structure was basically Rock, they also played diffeent genres like Blues and even some Ragtime but rarely mixed them, the most you can say it's that they were versatile.
Complex time signatures. In a few cases but not common in them either.
Lush keyboards For God's sake, they rarely used piano and until Jazz (I believe) they included proudly a phrase "No Synths used in this album". Explorative and intelligent lyrics, in some cases close to fantasy literature, Sci Fi and even political issues. Intelligent yes but excplorative no way, mostly Love songs with good arrangements.Non commercial approach Oh man, Queen is the commercial band for excelence, their approach was totally commercial, good music but you can't close your eyes.Longer format of songs Hey man, they have an average of 10 songs per album in LP format (40 to 45 minutes) , their average was 4 minutes at the most being that they used to have one longer songIn this specific case the main characteristic is the influence of Classical music.... : Using Orchestral arrangements or Operatic vocal extravaganzas is not Classical, the structure of Genesis songs was pure Rock and in cases as S0omebody to Love just Blues.i rest my case....
Sorry, you don't have a case.
Iván
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so the problem is that Queen instead of writing epics (irrelevant to being prog or not) they presented all these elements of different genres spread to 10 tracks instead of three even though the total time of their albums is the same to all other 'prog bands' and that instead of keyboards had a looot of piano (you can't argue with that...) playing classical themes and you fail to recognise the 'anti-commercial' Queen of the '73-'79 period but insist on the 80's when basically many bands that are considered prog in here went pop... THIS IS LAME... sorry you can't argue my case...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 18:06 |
toolis wrote:
The main characteristics of Symphonic are the ones that defined all Progressive Rock: (There's nothing 100% new under the sun) which among others are:
Mixture of elements from different genres: I don't think so, they were eclectic but most of their material is pure Rock with soime Orchestral or vocal arrangements, but the main structure was basically Rock, they also played diffeent genres like Blues and even some Ragtime but rarely mixed them, the most you can say it's that they were versatile.
Complex time signatures. In a few cases but not common in them either.
Lush keyboards For God's sake, they rarely used piano and until Jazz (I believe) they included proudly a phrase "No Synths used in this album".
Explorative and intelligent lyrics, in some cases close to fantasy literature, Sci Fi and even political issues. Intelligent yes but excplorative no way, mostly Love songs with good arrangements.
Non commercial approach Oh man, Queen is the commercial band for excelence, their approach was totally commercial, good music but you can't close your eyes.
Longer format of songs Hey man, they have an average of 10 songs per album in LP format (40 to 45 minutes) , their average was 4 minutes at the most being that they used to have one longer song
In this specific case the main characteristic is the influence of Classical music.... : Using Orchestral arrangements or Operatic vocal extravaganzas is not Classical, the structure of Genesis songs was pure Rock and in cases as S0omebody to Love just Blues.
i rest my case....
Sorry, you don't have a case.
Iván
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Sacred 22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1509
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 17:05 |
Philéas wrote:
Queen had many Prog tendencies in their music between their eponymous debut and A Day at the Races, though not enough to be included in any other category than Prog Related. There's nothing symphonic about them really, if there is one "real" Prog sub genre they would fit into it would be Art Rock, but even that is quite a long stretch.
I'm not even sure that Queen had enough relations to the Progressive Rock movement to be included as Prog Related. Until anyone proves otherwise, I'd like to see them out all together. Don't get me wrong though, I really love them, but they don't really belong here. |
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 09:50 |
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Queen had many Prog tendencies in their music between their eponymous
debut and A Day at the Races, though not enough to be included in any
other category than Prog Related. There's nothing symphonic about them
really, if there is one "real" Prog sub genre they would fit into it
would be Art Rock, but even that is quite a long stretch.
I'm not even sure that Queen had enough relations to the Progressive
Rock movement to be included as Prog Related. Until anyone proves
otherwise, I'd like to see them out all together. Don't get me wrong
though, I really love them, but they don't really belong here.
Edited by Philéas - August 13 2006 at 09:50
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 02:19 |
Queen Symphonic?????
They have some relation with Prog as they have with Blues, Pop and Classic Rock, they are outstanding but they never released a Symphonic track, not even Bohemian Rhapsody which is a Rock song with some stravaganzas.
Their music is great, maybe too good for Prog Related, but they are not Symphonic that's why I don't want The Who to be added, I don't want to see them as related.
Iván
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toolis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 26 2006
Location: MacedoniaGreece
Status: Offline
Points: 1678
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Posted: August 13 2006 at 01:58 |
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The main characteristics of Symphonic are the ones that defined all Progressive Rock: (There's nothing 100% new under the sun) which among others are:
Mixture of elements from different genres.
Complex time signatures.
Lush keyboards.
Explorative and intelligent lyrics, in some cases close to fantasy literature, Sci Fi and even political issues.
Non commercial approach
Longer format of songs
In this specific case the main characteristic is the influence of Classical music....
i rest my case....
Edited by toolis - August 13 2006 at 01:59
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 19957
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Posted: August 11 2006 at 11:21 |
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Can I suggest a glass of water and a quiet lie down in a darkened room?
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24392
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Posted: August 11 2006 at 09:59 |
Ivan is back... I can only imagine the fit he would have, should he get wind of the proposal of moving Queen to Symphonic! 
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19696
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Posted: August 11 2006 at 09:57 |
chopper wrote:
OK Mike, I'll start saving my pennies.
I do have a copy of Jazz though and nobody will ever convince me that it's progressive rock. |
It is not prog. None of the Queen album can be called prog, just songs here and there.
The last good Queen album is Jazz.
I am in the process of writing reviews of 10 CC albums , which I consider Queen's closest rivals and I draw up lots of similarities with their respective careers/discographies until 81, when Mercury did his coming out
>>> the first three 10CC albums reviews are in. Check out next week for the following three.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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toolis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 26 2006
Location: MacedoniaGreece
Status: Offline
Points: 1678
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Posted: August 11 2006 at 07:35 |
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is 'progressive' a different approach of rock or just a stiff term, anyway?
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 19957
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Posted: August 11 2006 at 07:35 |
OK Mike, I'll start saving my pennies.
I do have a copy of Jazz though and nobody will ever convince me that it's progressive rock.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 20616
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Posted: August 11 2006 at 06:33 |
chopper wrote:
toolis wrote:
ok, i won't argue with what kind of prog Queen are... but prog related? IMHO, from Queen II to Jazz, their music could only be characterized as PROGRESSIVE ROCK...
progression? tech? innovation? which adjective that we use for any 70's prog rock monster doesn't fit?
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I don't know Queen II which seems to be the album people quote as their most prog but I don't see anything in their other albums that qualify as prog. They may be innovative and ANATO has progressive elements in some songs but can you seriously say that "Jazz" is progressive rock? Is Fat Bottomed Girls prog? |
No, but Mustapha.  You should really try to get a copy of Queen II ... the only way to find out why we consider it to be progressive is listening to it!
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 19957
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Posted: August 11 2006 at 06:30 |
toolis wrote:
ok, i won't argue with what kind of prog Queen are... but prog related? IMHO, from Queen II to Jazz, their music could only be characterized as PROGRESSIVE ROCK...
progression? tech? innovation? which adjective that we use for any 70's prog rock monster doesn't fit?
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I don't know Queen II which seems to be the album people quote as their most prog but I don't see anything in their other albums that qualify as prog. They may be innovative and ANATO has progressive elements in some songs but can you seriously say that "Jazz" is progressive rock? Is Fat Bottomed Girls prog?
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toolis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 26 2006
Location: MacedoniaGreece
Status: Offline
Points: 1678
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Posted: August 11 2006 at 03:04 |
Cygnus X-2 wrote:
So then why symphonic?
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i said ok about the 'symphonic' thing... but not prog related... i don't know who decides about this... maybe, i'm wrong, but to me Queen feel like prog...any prog...
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Queen?Prog Related?
