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VanderGraafKommandöh 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
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Points: 89372
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 Posted: May 07 2010 at 07:35 |
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I thoroughly agree with you, David. Very well said.
Although there were many unpredictable results, both Swindon North and Swindon South were as expected. Which I am not happy about. Having said that, the "safer" labour seat of Swindon North had the larger swing to the Tories.
I knew the Lib Dems were untrustworthy. They maybe forming a coalition with the Conservatives. That's really against their own politics, really. They're closer to Labour than the Conservatives.
What do I think is the best plan?
Well, I hate to say it but Brown standing down and letting someone else take over, may mean the Lib Dems support Labour and also breathe new life into Labour and perhaps... force them into majority when we have another election.
Wishful thinking, I know.
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
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Points: 7028
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Posted: May 07 2010 at 05:25 |
LibDems on the decline....what a shame! Mind you looks like the Green Party got Brighton
Victory for a new Conservative Labour?
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: May 07 2010 at 05:16 |
^ sounds like after watching less than 5 minutes of anything election related I know as much as you 
Even though the Lib Dems have lost 11 or so seats, their share of the public vote has ever so slightly improved from 22.1% in 2005 to 22.8%. Looks like they will get 7.8% of the seats for 22.8% of the public vote - or to put it another way - 14.25 million people (6.5million voters) represented by 51 MPs - what a fantastic system we have. 
Our "traditional" polling station (the village hall) burnt down over winter, so they are using a temporary one in the Bowling club.... many people still turned up at the village hall and wandered around looking suitably confused as to why polling booths hadn't been erected in the wreckage, some went to the Cricket club, and others to the local primary school. Those people don't deserve to vote.
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The Hemulen
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 31 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 5964
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Posted: May 07 2010 at 04:52 |
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Well, I stayed up until half bloody five this morning, (the last hour spent swearing a lot and refreshing the results page for my constituency), watching "the drama unfold" as the BBC journalists would have me believe. Hours later and we're really none the wiser on how this country is going to be governed. I don't know whether to be excited or terrified.
I'm dismayed but not wholly surprised at the poor result for the Lib Dems. I don't know what the national vote share will look like (so many seats still to declare!) but I have a feeling it will paint a very different picture to the number of seats they've taken. The journalists are scratching their heads and saying "but we thought you all loved Clegg now?" but we never did. A sizeable minority in a lot of seats wanted to give him a chance, but under this stupid bloody system our votes count for nothing.
One crumb of comfort for us lefties is Caroline Lucas' win for the Green Party. Whilst I don't agree with them on absolutely everything (especially their funny relationship with science issues), having a Green MP or two in the House of Commons won't do this country any harm. I also think she has come across far better than any other party leader this election, and fought a truly positive and optimistic campaign throughout.
And as for the shambolic way the polling stations have operated in some areas... well, it's staggering, quite frankly. I have little sympathy for the people who cared so much about their vote that they thought they'd roll up a ten minutes before the stations are due to close and then get all uppity when they realise a hundred other people chose to do the same thing. Perhaps the polls should be closing an hour later, but we were all informed of the time for this election well in advance so there's no excuse, really. What does worry me is the tales of stations running out of ballot papers. WTF, quite frankly. WT friggin' F? YOU KNOW HOW MANY VOTERS ARE ON THE REGISTER. IS IT REALLY THAT HARD TO MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ENOUGH BALLOT PAPERS FOR ALL OF THEM?! Unbelievable.
But still, this has been a fascinating election. My one real hope is that it paves the way for electoral reform. This result is surely a testament to the fact that FPTP is a rotten way to conduct a supposedly democratic election, and blows the Tories claims that FPTP is the only way to deliver "a strong government" completely out the water.
Anyway, that's enough from me. Over to you, Mr Paxman.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: May 04 2010 at 12:58 |
It's Pimms o'clock! Jim, I didn't grow up on a Council Estate. I grew up in a village (more of a suburb now, to be honest) in my parents mortgaged house. Neither do I own my own house but I am currently renting. It could be a generational thing. My grandmother did have some bigoted viewpoints (which I think she got from her father, as he late husband and my grandfather apparently did not have these views) and if she was still alive today, I am sure she would still be saying the same thing. I've just noticed that there is no BNP candidate in the constituency I am voting in, which cheers me up no end. There is one standing in the actual constituency I am living in though. Hmm. However, it's looking very much like we'll have a Tory MP on Friday.  Maybe all us anti-Tories should threaten to emigrate? 
Edited by James - May 04 2010 at 13:04
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: May 04 2010 at 11:41 |
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What?
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
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Points: 14693
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Posted: May 04 2010 at 11:15 |
A couple of interesting points - James says she reminds him in a way of his grandmother who always had something to say about "The Coloureds" & a lot has been made of "class"; it could also be said it is a generational bias; the lady concerned grew up in a society where mass immigration was just coming in & prior to the introduction of the Race Relations Act, you could say anything you liked.
Like Dean/James/Chris above, I grew up on a council estate (got to be careful here before this sounds like the Four Yorkshiremen sketch), never went to university, but now own my own home outright, have 2 cars etc etc, so I consider myself (sort of) "middle class"... that said, I don't think it's a class thing here - I think 'Bigot-gate' is a combination of generational bias & (as I said earlier) her being unable to articulate her concerns (a bit like my inability to express what I mean here very well, but I hope you get the point )
However:
 Dean wrote:
of late have preferred to order a G&T rather than a pint of ale |
CLASS TRAITOR!
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 09:57 |
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True but she could have made a statement on her doorstep rather than getting convinced to sell her story for money by whoever offered her the most.
And personally, I had a good chuckle at Gordon. I felt it actually made him look more human and has actually made me respect him more.
But then I'm weird.
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Syzygy
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Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 7084
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 09:32 |
James wrote:
How do you feel about her selling her story, Chris?
Unfortunately, Mrs. Smeg reminds me of my late grandmother who always had something to say about the "coloured".
She always came out with comments that sounded bigoted.
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Actually I don't have a problem with her selling her story - it will probably help to make her old age a bit more comfortable, and given the amount of column inches she's generated for the press she might as well get something for it. It's not as though she asked to be thrust in the media spotlight.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 07:18 |
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How do you feel about her selling her story, Chris?
Unfortunately, Mrs. Smeg reminds me of my late grandmother who always had something to say about the "coloured".
She always came out with comments that sounded bigoted.
Edited by James - May 03 2010 at 07:19
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 7084
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Posted: May 03 2010 at 07:12 |
Dean wrote:
^ Working Class is an accident of birth and a social stigma, not an ethic and I am at a loss to work out how anyone can give the working class a worse name than they already have - I was born working class, grew-up on a council estate and had spagettii 'oops for tea. I am deemed middle class because I have a degree, I am in professional employment with a salary in the upper quartile and own my own home in a idyllic rural setting in the home counties, shop at M&S and Waitrose and of late have preferred to order a G&T rather than a pint of ale. As I rise for work each morning and schlep home every evening I seldom feel particularly middle class. Somewhere in the midst of all this I failed to gain ownership to the means of production. The class system in the UK is complete b**locks and when all the people who have to work for a living wake up and realise this then may be we'll get somewhere.
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I'm pretty similar to you in that respect, Dean (background, current financial/professional status) and I agree with you all the way.
As regards Mrs Smeg from Rochdale - being an elderly Northern working class widow doesn't make it inevitable that you'll express yourself like a cabbie whose proudest moment was having Nick Griffin in the back of his cab. My mother and several aunts fit that demographic and I'm confident that any of them could have raised the issue of immigration policy without sounding like they were quoting Richard Littlejohn verbatim. Whether she's a bigot or not, she expressed herself in a bigoted way that would have been deemed unacceptable had it been uttered by any of the 3 leaders and Gordon Brown was quite right to be concerend about that.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 23:19 |
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Billy Bragg made some great points on BBC News' Hard Talk programme earlier. I'm not sure if it'[ll be repeated as it's a part of News 24, I think.
He was basically saying that Immigration isn't really the full issue but it's rather the lack of jobs and housing. People are blaming it on the immigrants who are supposedly taking their jobs when it really isn't the issue at all. Everyone is having the issue; immigrants included.
He's in full favour of multi-culturalism. He also thinks there should be some kind of written constitution and also disagrees with the first-past-the-post system. He also has no issues with the proposed Lib Dem Amnesty but disagrees with a cap on immigrants.
He has actually voted Lib Dem the past three elections due to tactical voting in his constituency in West Dorset. He is still very much a left-of-centre voter though.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13867
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 13:50 |
Dean wrote:
^ Working Class is an accident of birth and a social stigma, not an ethic and I am at a loss to work out how anyone can give the working class a worse name than they already have - I was born working class, grew-up on a council estate and had spagettii 'oops for tea. I am deemed middle class because I have a degree, I am in professional employment with a salary in the upper quartile and own my own home in a idyllic rural setting in the home counties, shop at M&S and Waitrose and of late have preferred to order a G&T rather than a pint of ale. As I rise for work each morning and schlep home every evening I seldom feel particularly middle class. Somewhere in the midst of all this I failed to gain ownership to the means of production. The class system in the UK is complete b**locks and when all the people who have to work for a living wake up and realise this then may be we'll get somewhere.
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As a political activist all of my adult life, all I can really say to this is a big HEAR HEAR 
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 11:45 |
akamaisondufromage wrote:
Dean- You saying there is no such thing as the British Class System or that there are only two classes - those that own the means of production and those that don't ?
I still think that our 'Class System' has a lot to do with what school Daddy sent you to - oh and the fact we still have a Royal Family  |
Well, obviously there is such a thing as a British class system, but it's a well screwed archaic system rooted in the Industrial Revolution that is not reflected in the political system that is supposed to represent it.
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akamaisondufromage
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
Status: Offline
Points: 6797
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 11:18 |
Dean- You saying there is no such thing as the British Class System or that there are only two classes - those that own the means of production and those that don't ?
I still think that our 'Class System' has a lot to do with what school Daddy sent you to - oh and the fact we still have a Royal Family
Anyway as regards to Duffygate . It just seems a shame to me that many people will decide who they vote for based on this (Adittedly idiotic) slip. And not on ,ability, local MP and the fact that were up to our necks in doodoo (Economically speaking). I think this election was much more interesting b efore this happened. Oh well!
Edited by akamaisondufromage - May 02 2010 at 11:20
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Help me I'm falling!
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 10:17 |
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Oh I do agree with that, Dean.
My family are was is deemed working class too. It's not about money as such. We've not been brought up on a council estate though.
However, we're atypical to what most people would call working class too. My mother, myself and one of my brother's have degrees. Some of us are bookish and well read. Yet none of us have really gotten anywhere in life to say we're middle class.
We try to be good at saving money though and aren't really materialistic.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 10:09 |
^ Working Class is an accident of birth and a social stigma, not an ethic and I am at a loss to work out how anyone can give the working class a worse name than they already have - I was born working class, grew-up on a council estate and had spagettii 'oops for tea. I am deemed middle class because I have a degree, I am in professional employment with a salary in the upper quartile and own my own home in a idyllic rural setting in the home counties, shop at M&S and Waitrose and of late have preferred to order a G&T rather than a pint of ale. As I rise for work each morning and schlep home every evening I seldom feel particularly middle class. Somewhere in the midst of all this I failed to gain ownership to the means of production. The class system in the UK is complete b**locks and when all the people who have to work for a living wake up and realise this then may be we'll get somewhere.
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What?
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 09:16 |
Surely the working class ethic is to work your way up and hope you one day are able to be finanically secure by working hard, not earn a few thousand (I have no idea how much she got for selling her "story") in one day by selling a mostly uninteresting story to the press? Maybe I'm atypical in this respect? I personally think she gives many working class people are bad name now. I guess she could have just won the lottery though. 
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TGM: Orb
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Joined: October 21 2007
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Points: 8052
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 08:47 |
Dean wrote:
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
I agree with Trouserpress. If she has sold her story, she is just doing what the rest of the population in UK would had done. That is how the society has become. A Max Clifford driven society. Which is fair enough.
I think any attack on this lady is hypocritical and a contempt for the working class. Anyone from the working class would had sold their story to the press if given the chance. So Mrs. Duffy has just done the working class thing by aspiring to better her life. |
...and she said nothing that the average British voter wasn't thinking - everybody is naturally xenophobic, (whether the "foreigners" come from the next tribe, hamlet, village, town, city, county, country or the next continent), that doesn't make them racist or bigotted - they have to act on those fears to be that. I hear comments like the ones Mrs Duffy made every day but when you challenge them on specifics, like the foreign workers they've worked alongside for several years all you get is "Well, they're not like the others, they're one of us". I also don't believe that Mr Brown is out of touch, hypocritial or has contempt for the working class any more than any other politician before him, regardless of political party. No politiican or journalist would get what that really means because all politicians and journalists have political agendas. This story lost all meaning the moment Sky News used it for political ends ... after that it didn't matter what either of them said.
Mrs Duffy should have told the press she would sell her story on the 7th May.
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| I think any attack on this lady is hypocritical and a contempt for the
working class. Anyone from the working class would had sold their story
to the press if given the chance |
Fairly daft argument... just because 'anyone from the working class' (and I think that's a vast over-generalisation?) would do it doesn't make it morally acceptable. It only appears patronising and insulting to me to judge the working class by a moral standard distinct from the standard by which you judge others. Much the same way as claiming that cheating on expenses is 'the upper class thing' would be an inane argument. I wouldn't say her selling her story was wrong, though I do think that what she said is basically bigoted, I believe what she was trying to say was bigoted and I don't think the fact she's from the working class excuses that at all.
| she said nothing that the average British voter wasn't thinking |
Still, she expressed her thoughts in a manner that was at best implicitly xenophobic and explicitly incomprehensible. I fail to see how Brown's remark is unjustifiable. Curiously enough, I'm mostly around 20ish, middle class, fairly well educated people at the moment (the excitements of university), and they have without exception so far thought Brown's remark was completely justified. Perhaps the word bigoted has different strengths of connotation to different generations...
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: May 02 2010 at 08:43 |
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It's just mud slinging, really.
I wouldn't personally sell my story to the paper. Sorry, that's just not something I would do. It doesn't matter how critical such articles are and how loved by the nation you are. You'll get the likes of The Now Show and Frankie Boyle making witty comments about you regardless. Now that wouldn't bother me personally but it may of lesser people.
Some people probably are unaware of over the consequences of selling their story.
I realise it's a five-minute fame thing and it'll blow over but at the next election, it'll likely be brought back up again.
Besides, what Dean said is likely correct. The article (which I have not read) likes does not say anything of much importance anyhow.
Last week she didn't even know she'd be on television talking to Brown and now she's earnt a few (thousand) pounds selling her story. I hope she feels satisfied.
Edited by James - May 02 2010 at 08:43
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