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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: September 19 2011 at 08:59 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Of course theory means nothing since according to another, a war with the US and China is inevitable but I don't buy that one either.
| Since China has such a huge chunk of our debt and our independent manufacturing capabilities have been pretty much compromised and they want us to continue buy all the stuff they make, the dynamic isn't there. We may spend more on the military than several of our potential rivals, but that's all been run up on credit.
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Well yeah, that's why I don't buy it amongst other reasons as well, but I wont go into it now because I'm kinda tired and also dont feel like poli sci nerding this place up! But also depends on your semantics and definitions. I've heard the 7 years war described as a "world war" which I could understand, and there was of course the Cold War which some also call one, so maybe we've had 4! If you believe the "War on Terror" is one as well then we're in our 5th. But that's silly since it's hardly a global effort, nor on a global scale really. We can't call everything world wars now people
Edited by JJLehto - September 19 2011 at 09:05
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 19 2011 at 06:12 |
By the way, it's a big lie that nothing is made in the USA anymore. I went to the refrigerator to confirm that my bottle of sriracha chili sauce was made here.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: September 19 2011 at 06:02 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Of course theory means nothing since according to another, a war with the US and China is inevitable but I don't buy that one either.
| Since China has such a huge chunk of our debt and our independent manufacturing capabilities have been pretty much compromised and they want us to continue buy all the stuff they make, the dynamic isn't there. We may spend more on the military than several of our potential rivals, but that's all been run up on credit. |
Indeed, although China doesn't own quite as large a chunk of US debt as is sometimes thought. They have also been in the process of dumping some of it already. They have also invested some of it in hard assets, like land and property in Africa. The Chinese are already drilling for mineral resources in Africa and western Australia. This is one of the reasons, in my opinion, why NATO is working to establish a permenant military presence in North Africa.
Lets remember though, that the Chinese economy, while it's GDP is growing by around 9% + a year, is not immune to global economic downturn. If the west slips into a deep depression, and can't afford to buy China's crap products, then their exports will fall sharply, and in a short space of time. If the crisis in the Eurozone precedes another major banking crisis, then that could mean a collapse of our monetary system; worldwide. In short no customers = no vendors. A complete re-setting of the global monetary system will be required; a kind of 'year zero' approach.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
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Posted: September 19 2011 at 05:49 |
I sure hope so - otherwise what to do with all that C-4 that I got for Christmas?
Seriously though, to think that we´re going to be peaceful on a global scale for the rest of our existence seems a bit far fetched. In a little while we´re going to be 9 billion people...
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 19 2011 at 05:43 |
JJLehto wrote:
Of course theory means nothing since according to another, a war with the US and China is inevitable but I don't buy that one either.
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Since China has such a huge chunk of our debt and our independent manufacturing capabilities have been pretty much compromised and they want us to continue buy all the stuff they make, the dynamic isn't there. We may spend more on the military than several of our potential rivals, but that's all been run up on credit.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: September 19 2011 at 05:37 |
aginor wrote:
i hope the world is spared for Timothy Mcveigh and Anders Behring Breivik copycats |
Sincerely hope I've misread this, but did you mean to type: I hope the world is spared from Timothy McVeigh and Anders Behring Breivik copycats?
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34055
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Posted: September 19 2011 at 05:28 |
i hope the world is spared for Timothy Mcveigh and Anders Behring Breivik copycats
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: September 18 2011 at 21:31 |
There have been world wars far before the ones during the 20th century, so I won't doubt that there would be some war that could be dubbed as a third ww.
Some of the most important before the 20th century:
Mongol invasions; Timur conquests/Timurid invasions; 30 year war.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: September 18 2011 at 21:01 |
Well agreed it would most likely not be a Europe/US centered one because, well that's ridiculous in today's world. Given how integrated the world is #3 may truly be a world war..maybe no "center" at all. I could see that as well since traditional wars havn't been fought since..Korea?
Since there is only yes and no I'll say no, but really there's of course a chance but I highly doubt it.
2 theories exist about what will happen in the post cold war world: Fukuyama & Huntington and I'm much more inclined to believe the first. Of course theory means nothing since according to another, a war with the US and China is inevitable but I don't buy that one either. end poli sci rambling
Edited by JJLehto - September 18 2011 at 21:02
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: September 18 2011 at 20:49 |
Blacksword wrote:
James wrote:
I wasn't referring to anything specific.We're experiencing a new kind of war though but we're just not told about it.
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I think this is the most accurate description so far.
Firstly lets look at a definition of world war:
From Wikipedia (I know, not gospel!):
"A world war is a war affecting the majority of the world's most powerful and populous nations. World wars span multiple countries on multiple continents, with battles fought in multiple theaters"
If we take this literally, you could argue that world war is already underway. The 'war on terror' has seen attacks in the UK, US, EU, Bali, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Israel/Gaza and possibly soon Syria and Iran too. The Russians and the Chinese are already implicated by the technical and economic assistance to Irans nuclear program, believed by the west to be a weapons program, and of course both countries reticence to support the west at the UN, when dealing with the likes of Iran.
As I said earlier though, I don't think we'll see the kind of conflicts that defined the last two world wars. This new type of war, will entail the collapsing of currencies and the subsequent ram raiding and impoverishment of nations by the IMF, who buy up public infrastructure of countries to whom they have issued loans, and channel the wealth up the pyramid to the global elites. All the while, the Muslim extremist, and the "right wing nut job" will be waiting in the wings, to be wheeled out every time the people need reminding why they must give up their liberties. The new type of war is not nation against nation. It's a battle of perspectives, and the two sides are not defined by the left wing/right wing paradigm.
The war is between the people of the world and their ruling masters. |
This. Pretty much. War doesn't necessarily have to involve physical conflict and ergo no deaths. Obviously death is happening though in certain places. In Greece people died. People died or were badly injured in London recently. Then of course you have Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq and many other middle eastern countries. You then get situations like Norway. Yes that was an isolated incident but the current economic climate will potentially mean even more problems arising. Lots of mini civil wars. Plus the constant fighting between the west and the middle east. Then as Andy said, an economic war too.
Edited by James - September 19 2011 at 02:45
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yanch
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 03 2010
Location: Lowell, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 3247
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Posted: September 18 2011 at 08:04 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
yanch wrote:
Probably yes. Unfortunately, as long as ideology is so divisive around the world and there is the insistence that one ideology is "better" than others, the potential for a massive war is possible. |
I have trouble believing that you honestly believe all ideas are equal. |
Hi Henry, I don't believe all ideas are equal, just that at this point there are "ideas" followed strongly enough to prevent total national and global cooperation. There are still enough groups with just enough power to cause enough conflict to keep things unstable. As long as that exists, the possibility of WW lll will exist. It's an over-simplification, but I believe it is true. Just my opinion.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: September 18 2011 at 07:19 |
I think it's about time we declared victory on the war on drugs and send everyone home. The Islamic and Christian extremists are certainly itching for a war. I say we lock them all in a cage somewhere and let them settle it and keep us out of it.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: September 18 2011 at 05:28 |
James wrote:
I wasn't referring to anything specific.We're experiencing a new kind of war though but we're just not told about it.
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I think this is the most accurate description so far.
Firstly lets look at a definition of world war:
From Wikipedia (I know, not gospel!):
"A world war is a war affecting the majority of the world's most powerful and populous nations. World wars span multiple countries on multiple continents, with battles fought in multiple theaters"
If we take this literally, you could argue that world war is already underway. The 'war on terror' has seen attacks in the UK, US, EU, Bali, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Israel/Gaza and possibly soon Syria and Iran too. The Russians and the Chinese are already implicated by the technical and economic assistance to Irans nuclear program, believed by the west to be a weapons program, and of course both countries reticence to support the west at the UN, when dealing with the likes of Iran.
As I said earlier though, I don't think we'll see the kind of conflicts that defined the last two world wars. This new type of war, will entail the collapsing of currencies and the subsequent ram raiding and impoverishment of nations by the IMF, who buy up public infrastructure of countries to whom they have issued loans, and channel the wealth up the pyramid to the global elites. All the while, the Muslim extremist, and the "right wing nut job" will be waiting in the wings, to be wheeled out every time the people need reminding why they must give up their liberties. The new type of war is not nation against nation. It's a battle of perspectives, and the two sides are not defined by the left wing/right wing paradigm.
The war is between the people of the world and their ruling masters.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: September 18 2011 at 01:07 |
I wasn't referring to anything specific.
We're experiencing a new kind of war though but we're just not told about it.
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: September 17 2011 at 21:29 |
I find another "World War" like the two previous ones to be unlikely but, as the world topples into Great Depression II, more widespread military conflicts between nations seems likely. The United States' unnecissary military and monetary presence in so many nations understandably ratchets up tensions but engaging in a traditional war with the US for almost any country would be suicidal.
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Time always wins.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: September 17 2011 at 20:50 |
CPicard wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
You only need a mad messianic and charismatic leader.
Chavez was dangerous, luckily his own contradictions make him a clown more than a leader.
If it starts probably will be in Middle East.
Iván
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No, you don't need a "mad messianic and charismatic leader": see World War I. You just need nations and imperialisms.
And the war won't start in Middle East... Or only if the USA want it. And I hardly see Obama as a "hawk".
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Imperialism will always exist, but a mad charismatic leader could pull the trigger as in WWII (I don't know how we survived Bush, maybe because he lost his charisma too soon), not Obama, but in USA you have the power and some really mad men, just imagine a Fred Phelps in the Government....That's a scary thought..
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 17 2011 at 20:52
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: September 17 2011 at 17:17 |
One could only hope and pray that the third major whorled cornflak't e-laminates us awl from this more tall coy-ole.
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
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Posted: September 17 2011 at 16:49 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
You only need a mad messianic and charismatic leader.
Chavez was dangerous, luckily his own contradictions make him a clown more than a leader.
If it starts probably will be in Middle East.
Iván
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No, you don't need a "mad messianic and charismatic leader": see World War I. You just need nations and imperialisms. And the war won't start in Middle East... Or only if the USA want it. And I hardly see Obama as a "hawk".
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: September 17 2011 at 16:39 |
CPicard wrote:
James wrote:
We're already experiencing it.
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The Pepsi/Coca-Cola war doesn't count. |
I think he is referring to Microsoft vs Apple.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: September 17 2011 at 16:36 |
You only need a mad messianic and charismatic leader.
Chavez was dangerous, luckily his own contradictions make him a clown more than a leader.
If it starts probably will be in Middle East.
Iván
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