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Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2012 at 15:06
^ Any tracks in particular? ... since I have a lot to choose from. I don't know if "The Wall" is something she will understand musically. There are lots of heavy tracks on it.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - May 29 2012 at 15:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2012 at 14:49
I would suggest to start with some not-very-complex Symphonic Prog tracks, I would albums, Camel & Mirage, Foxtrot or Selling England, The Wall and then we can go for Fragile, maybe. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2012 at 14:42
OK, how about this: my mother keeps listening to this guy Phillip Phillips from the American Idol, and she keeps listening to him out loud, and she even sent me an e-mail with a link to his performance. That's just being obtrusive. 

BTW, she enjoys Whitney Houston and, yeah, those freaking songs done by Phillip Phillips. She doesn't seem to care much for The Beatles. She heard Yes' "Your Move/I've Seen All Good People" several times and wasn't really impressed. She was very annoyed with Argent's "Hold Your Head Up". I played on YouTube that piano bit Tony Banks played during an interview that back in the day became the theme for the piano and flute from "Firth of Fifth", and she is all like, phlegmatically: "That's easy to play". Nor was she impressed with Banks' keyboard work in the intro of "The Lamb" (the title track): "Oh, yeah, that's tough to play". She also doesn't seem to care much for that famous memorable guitar line from SOYCD where the drums start. 

Oh, and yeah, I played Popol Vuh's "Ah!" off of "Hosianna Mantra" and PF's "A Saucerful of Secrets" (the title track), and she commented: "Madman's music".

Please, somebody help me out to get her freaking mind off of the freaking Phillip Phillips. It's becoming a real problem now. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 14:42
Still sucks.
Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 14:33
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Tarkus tells you everything about prog. Classic symph prog with a very easy to understand title track.

But then you have to skip Bitches Crystal, The Only Way, Jeremy Bender, Are You Ready Eddy...everything but the title track and Infinite Space.
 
Oh dear,  oh dear and Holy Bat Crap, Batman! Confused
 
I came across this Tarkus Side II bashing in another thread, and I just can't keep silent on this atrocity any longer..Wink
 
For the record:
 
Bitches Crystal is an amazing prog-hard rocker.  Lake's powerful singing yet forcefull screaming may have singlehandedly invented a whole genre of harder rock, a more quintessential song, you will not find.
(Oh and let's not forget the absolute wicked screaming moog lines in that tune.)
 
The Only Way: it may turn off some Bible thumpers, but it is keyboard masterfulness, and since ELP is a KEYBOARD driven band, lots of keys and a genuine pipe organ shouldn't be so hard to handle.Wink
 
Jeremy Bender: fun, yet very difficult to play ragtime ditty(done quite originally, mind you) whose words have left us wondering for decades, what was Jeremy Bender really all about??? I personally think it was written about Richard M. Nixon.LOL
 
Are You Ready Eddy?  Writen & recorded on the fly since the band ran out of compositions yet needed more songs for the record length, but still has some brilliant hard rock piano improv. despite being a last second tune Clap
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 14:09
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Tarkus tells you everything about prog. Classic symph prog with a very easy to understand title track.



Dude, how can you be so right on this one and so wrong on Chester Thompson fumbling his way through
live Dance On A Volcano???

I think you found the perfect prog introduction record.

ELP - Tarkus.  Cool
 
Thanks (I thinkConfused)
 
For the benefit of people who don't hang on every word I type (misguided fools that they beWink) I just said Chester Thompson was 'fine' on the Seconds Out version of DOAV and he is.Collins does give the toms a good battering on the studio version and it also seems slower and more stately..so its just different. I expect they upped the tempo on the live version so it just can't be played the same way. Funnily enough this also happened when ELP played Tarkus liveTongue
 
 
Well it was the way you said Chester plays just "fine" in your original post.  It kinda came off like a youngster standing
atop the stairs with their fists folded against their sides, elbows out, defiantly exclaiming "fine" send me to bed without
any desert, "fine" see if I care! (At least that is how it came across to me and my court appointed therapist.Wink)
 
So I thought it needed further discussion, which by the way, sure took you a long enough time to find that continuing discussion, here in this very thread! LOL
 
But yes, I agree a 2nd time, if there was only one record to show what prog is about, I dare say you can't go wrong with Tarkus! Big smile  Tongue  Smile  Clap
 
And for the jokers who said Are You Ready Eddie? was a track that killed an otherwise great record, I say again:
 
It was a last minute jam/composition when the band was told(after recording was completed) that the album was a few minutes short and they needed one more song.  Since ELP had no more songs written, they did a quickie improv and that was put at the end of Tarkus.  And yeah, Are You Ready Eddie? has some absolutely kick-ass piano in it.Approve
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 09:40
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Desert_Storm Desert_Storm wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I look forward to your future posts. You very eloquently put Moshkito in his place there whereas I would just have been rude tbhSmile

Thanks a lot for the eloquence compliment :) It wasn't my intention to put somebody in his place, I was just not sure if I understood what Moshkito said, and if I did, I disagree.


I've had a few run ins with Moshkito so I can give you the benefit of my experience on this. He doesn't like anything being labelled even though we are on a Prog website and not the 'freedom to all musical expression' website.Prog is a definable and identifiable genre but Moshkito will tell you otherwise. He will also take the opportunity to talk down to you if you don't agree. On the plus side he does have a fantastic knowledge of music and often posts interesting stuff. Basically he's pretty harmless if sometimes annoyingLOL
 
The only sad thing in all this, is that you all take the socialist part so seriously ... you have to agree with each other in order to express yourself!
 
You really think, that all the "progressive" music is about that? Do you have a conceptual understanding of what it really means, other than just a "hit" or another "song"? I don't believe so! 
 
You can call me a goon (that's an honor!) or an idiot (how sweet to be an idiot!), and anything else you like. But one thing I'm not lacking is ... individuality, and personality ... because those are the two things required and needed to get some attention out there in the world of the arts.
 
Go ahead .. be my guest ... do what everyone else already does ... and hope to get noticed! Good luck! Then come over here and call me something else when you only had 4 streams running and several friends never made it, or cared to bother! They already have the CD's and heard it hundred times! How "prog" that is!


Edited by moshkito - April 05 2012 at 09:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2012 at 01:48
Originally posted by Desert_Storm Desert_Storm wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I look forward to your future posts. You very eloquently put Moshkito in his place there whereas I would just have been rude tbhSmile

Thanks a lot for the eloquence compliment :) It wasn't my intention to put somebody in his place, I was just not sure if I understood what Moshkito said, and if I did, I disagree.


I've had a few run ins with Moshkito so I can give you the benefit of my experience on this. He doesn't like anything being labelled even though we are on a Prog website and not the 'freedom to all musical expression' website.Prog is a definable and identifiable genre but Moshkito will tell you otherwise. He will also take the opportunity to talk down to you if you don't agree. On the plus side he does have a fantastic knowledge of music and often posts interesting stuff. Basically he's pretty harmless if sometimes annoyingLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2012 at 21:11
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

What is the best record as an introduction to prog-rock?

I have a clue how to answer this question: something accessible, non-embarrassing, and quintessential of the genre. It all depends on the user: either "Dark Side of the Moon" or "Red." Gee, if I had to choose, ... let it be "Dark Side of the Moon."

What do you think?
 
I don't think there is a "best record". To whom are introducing prog-rock to? Your grandmother who thinks The Beatles are the devil's music? An eleven year-old girl who listens to the Disney Channel and Nickelodeon? Someone in a coma for the last 40 years who hasn't heard any? What are we talking about here?
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2012 at 16:08
From a Pop perspective - MAybe Peter Gabriel
MEtal perspective - DT
Rock perspective - Porcupine tree
Jazz - Santana perhaps

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2012 at 15:08
Marillion - Marbles
Future prosperity lies in the way you heal the world with love
(Introitus - The hand that feeds you)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2012 at 14:24
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I look forward to your future posts. You very eloquently put Moshkito in his place there whereas I would just have been rude tbhSmile

Thanks a lot for the eloquence compliment :) It wasn't my intention to put somebody in his place, I was just not sure if I understood what Moshkito said, and if I did, I disagree.

And it seems it doesn't get any better here Confused
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I would suggest that "after the initial movement" ... things changed to something else ... that (sometimes) we do not consider "progressive".
 

So the music those bands played can't be called progressive anymore?
Quote You know what it feels like to me sometimes? ... it's almost like we're telling folks that "progressive" is like ... if you want to go to San Francisco, be sure to wear flowers in your hair ... " and some folks are not going to like that and think that is stupid and crazy! I'm not a hippy!
So, in a way, I prefer to take that part out, with the inevitable problem that by being "quotidian" I am placing this in the middle of that "flowers in your hair" thing ...
Sorry, I completely fail to understand that
Quote there were a lot of people that did really good music ... and we just have not met those people, or that music

Of course there were, of course we haven't. What has that got to do with it?
Originally posted by Moshkito Moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Desert_Storm Desert_Storm wrote:

 After all the Thread Starter asked about an album as an introduction and not a detailed explanation of the whole movement?
It's like seeing a forest instead of one tree, or vice versa. I'm not sure that you can "exemplify" a concept with one album or one band. That is really an uneducated idea that your own professor and instructor is going to hammer you on.

Well thanks for calling my ideas uneducated. By the way, what you say my professor (whoever you mean, I didn't know you knew I study or what or with whom) would "hammer me on", I'm sorry to disappoint you, but picking examples to explain the big with the small or the general with the particular is exactly what we do where I study. A professor wants to explain the, let's say baroque variation form and he starts with showing us Bach's Goldberg Variations. After we analyse it, we look what it has in common with other variation works from that time and whats different, and thus get a picture how to stake off the respective genre. This is very common in music, I've read tons of books about musical morphology and analysis and about every author that comes to my mind uses this method. So you're still free to disagree with the complete methodology but if you want to do that and still be taken seriously I would like to know a little something about your background.
By the way, after typing this, it comes to my mind that it was absolutely superfluous. Taking examples to explain something is used all the time in all disciplines and in real life. Look at anything you want. In physics we teach gravity by throwing one example object on the floor and examine how it falls. In Language we pick one correct or incorrect example sentence to show what's grammatically/logically/whatever right or wrong. In biology we watch one example plant or animal develop and thus explain evolution. Look at the children: "Mommy, what are rocks?", and the mother will pick up some random rocks from the ground and say "those things". Should she better say "Well, that depends, there are many concepts regarding the definition of what is a rock and what not, and in each concepts there are many different materials in many different forms that qualify as rocks, so showing you one would not help you at all" ? Come on, it's ridiculous.
Quote You can use it as an example, But your professor is going to say ... that's one example ... let's have more showing this and this and this and that ... which you did not show.

Of course multiple examples are better than one, but that was not the point. The point is that if you don't have multiple, one is infinitely better than none.
Quote I get the issue ... make it simple stupid ...

That was not what I was doing (or anyone else here that I saw), it's not what anyone is asking you to do, and I take it as quite rude.


Edited by Desert_Storm - April 04 2012 at 14:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2012 at 12:52
Originally posted by Desert_Storm Desert_Storm wrote:

@ Moshkito:
While it's all nice and well to know the backgrounds, boundary-transcending influences and dynamics of any musical style I don't really understand what this has to do with the topic. Of course "progressive rock" was a movement of that time and it's good to see beyond the limits of music and look at the surroundings (like with any other musical period/genre), but in truth, after the initial movement passed, we put a label on it to make it easier to speak about certain bands that played a similar style of music (as we do with every musical period).
...
 
I would suggest that "after the initial movement" ... things changed to something else ... that (sometimes) we do not consider "progressive".
 
Originally posted by Desert_Storm Desert_Storm wrote:

...
So if one comes to me and asks me what this "progressive rock" thing is that people talk about, and what it sounds like, why not give him an album that you might consider more or less representative for what other such bands played at that time? And wasn't that what this topic was about in the first place?
...
 
I do this, even with my neighbor, who loves music and then saw all those LP's and CD's and he went ... wow ... what is all that? I told him that it was music, just like the stuff he likes, but it is from different places in the world, and sometimes called this or that or this or that ... and he said ... can I hear some?
 
And he liked YES, though he had heard "Roundabout" and had it in his collection, but did not know the band.
 
You know what it feels like to me sometimes? ... it's almost like we're telling folks that "progressive" is like ... if you want to go to San Francisco, be sure to wear flowers in your hair ... " and some folks are not going to like that and think that is stupid and crazy! I'm not a hippy!
 
So, in a way, I prefer to take that part out, with the inevitable problem that by being "quotidian" I am placing this in the middle of that "flowers in your hair" thing ... and the difference is ... there were a lot of people that did really good music ... and we just have not met those people, or that music.
 
Originally posted by Desert_Storm Desert_Storm wrote:

...
  After all the Thread Starter asked about an album as an introduction and not a detailed explanation of the whole movement?
 
It's like seeing a forest instead of one tree, or vice versa. I'm not sure that you can "exemplify" a concept with one album or one band. That is really an uneducated idea that your own professor and instructor is going to hammer you on. You can use it as an example, But your professor is going to say ... that's one example ... let's have more showing this and this and this and that ... which you did not show.
 
I get the issue ... make it simple stupid ... but sometimes, all you are doing is hurting the very lover and thing you want to protect and love ... and you have to help it better than that ... and I like to say ... "educate" ... rather than sound like some expert that thinks they know music better than anyone else ... none of us do ... besides suggesting that the musicians are too stupid to create their own work and not use a pre-defined process to create something ... and that is another story!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2012 at 01:13
Originally posted by Desert_Storm Desert_Storm wrote:

@ Moshkito:
While it's all nice and well to know the backgrounds, boundary-transcending influences and dynamics of any musical style I don't really understand what this has to do with the topic. Of course "progressive rock" was a movement of that time and it's good to see beyond the limits of music and look at the surroundings (like with any other musical period/genre), but in truth, after the initial movement passed, we put a label on it to make it easier to speak about certain bands that played a similar style of music (as we do with every musical period).

So if one comes to me and asks me what this "progressive rock" thing is that people talk about, and what it sounds like, why not give him an album that you might consider more or less representative for what other such bands played at that time? And wasn't that what this topic was about in the first place?

Or maybe I'm getting it all wrong, I'm not even sure if I completely understand your posts, e.g. the Beethoven comparison (if you want to label him he was late classical/first Viennese school). Of course the boundaries were all imposed on the music later on, but we still use them, and they're IMHO useful. Like if somebody doesn't know Domeniconi Scarlatti, you can tell him he was from the classical period, and he'll know more. Or if somebody wants to get to know the music of that period better, you can give him the second Beethoven Symphony, or Mozart's c-minor mass, or an early Haydn string quartet, and he'll have a clue of how it could sound the next time somebody mentions music from that period. Of course it would be nice if he knew about the influences from architecture and painting and enlightenment as well, but he has a nice point to start with with the works above, why not do the same with prog?  After all the Thread Starter asked about an album as an introduction and not a detailed explanation of the whole movement?
I look forward to your future posts. You very eloquently put Moshkito in his place there whereas I would just have been rude tbhSmile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2012 at 01:10
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Tarkus tells you everything about prog. Classic symph prog with a very easy to understand title track.


But then you have to skip Bitches Crystal, The Only Way, Jeremy Bender, Are You Ready Eddy...everything but the title track and Infinite Space.
They are very easy to skip thoughWink
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2012 at 16:09
@ Moshkito:
While it's all nice and well to know the backgrounds, boundary-transcending influences and dynamics of any musical style I don't really understand what this has to do with the topic. Of course "progressive rock" was a movement of that time and it's good to see beyond the limits of music and look at the surroundings (like with any other musical period/genre), but in truth, after the initial movement passed, we put a label on it to make it easier to speak about certain bands that played a similar style of music (as we do with every musical period).

So if one comes to me and asks me what this "progressive rock" thing is that people talk about, and what it sounds like, why not give him an album that you might consider more or less representative for what other such bands played at that time? And wasn't that what this topic was about in the first place?

Or maybe I'm getting it all wrong, I'm not even sure if I completely understand your posts, e.g. the Beethoven comparison (if you want to label him he was late classical/first Viennese school). Of course the boundaries were all imposed on the music later on, but we still use them, and they're IMHO useful. Like if somebody doesn't know Domeniconi Scarlatti, you can tell him he was from the classical period, and he'll know more. Or if somebody wants to get to know the music of that period better, you can give him the second Beethoven Symphony, or Mozart's c-minor mass, or an early Haydn string quartet, and he'll have a clue of how it could sound the next time somebody mentions music from that period. Of course it would be nice if he knew about the influences from architecture and painting and enlightenment as well, but he has a nice point to start with with the works above, why not do the same with prog?  After all the Thread Starter asked about an album as an introduction and not a detailed explanation of the whole movement?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2012 at 14:48
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

...
A tiny bit of what you've said is a bit over my head, but I think I got the general idea. And I very much like your point. However, I think you can throw us a name, answer to the best of your ability, even if it won't work for everyone. You may consider any standards you want since it looks like there are lots of things I haven't foreseen when writing the
....
 
Then I failed.
 
Again, one album or piece of music did not change the sun and the moon on a given day ... and for us to think that it did is ... weird!
 
It was a product of the time and place, and you can go as far back as the mopheads and what not ... but too many other arts had already been doing the progressive thing to a very extreme degree. You never saw the "Living Theater" do live experiments like only the Grateful Dead and Allman Brothers did .... you never saw the "National Theater of the Deaf" ... do improvisations in mime to rock music .... you never saw the ETC La Mama group ... use film for their "set" with the story in front of it for Carmilla ... talk about multi-media! And of course, you may know Tarantino, but you never saw Godard (or Weekend so you can appreciate Pulp Friction even better!) who was the ultimate free form spokesperson for film with more weirdness than anything you ever heard on vinyl, cassette or cd! But then, not many folks appreciate the incredible musicianship required for DT to do what they did with an Orchestra ... only master musicians have that ability ... but it doesn't matter ... only "prog" matters!
 
You have to see a bit beyond the "music" ... as people are not that isolated from the arts ... it's like me saying that you don't know movies, books or theater, or tv or anything ... you only know "progressive" ... and that is not true at all.
 
There is a lot more to life than just ... one thing! ... or we're definitly in a time warp of some kind! And a time warp on one word/idea? ... goodness ... you know how many writers have written about that in the last couple of thousands of years?


Edited by moshkito - April 03 2012 at 14:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2012 at 23:57
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Tarkus tells you everything about prog. Classic symph prog with a very easy to understand title track.


But then you have to skip Bitches Crystal, The Only Way, Jeremy Bender, Are You Ready Eddy...everything but the title track and Infinite Space.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2012 at 23:45
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

What is the best record as an introduction to prog-rock?

I have a clue how to answer this question: something accessible, non-embarrassing, and quintessential of the genre. It all depends on the user: either "Dark Side of the Moon" or "Red." Gee, if I had to choose, ... let it be "Dark Side of the Moon."

What do you think?
 
I would probably start with ... NONE!
 
It will shock the audience and then you can move along ... the progressive movement is not something that came and went by our whims or some weird design of what music was or was supposed to become in the future ... like you and I already "knew" ...
 
This didn't start then, and the "progressive" phenomenon is not arbitrary based of one album, but was about the time and place, the music, the arts, the literature, the movies, the theater ... and what was happening at the time.
 
Anything else is superfluous and ... I think it reduces everything to Cliff Notes mentality for the masses! And the bad part? ... you can't have progressive music in a state of Cliff Notes! All of us would start the revolution all over again and probably call it Revolution #10 now ...
 
I think you have to make people aware of history better ... otherwise ... let's see ... do you go around saying that you listen to Beethoven because he was from the "romantic period"? .... and do you know anything, history wise about that time that helps you define that term and definition? ... now you know why I would like a much more quotidian study and definition for the term. You know the word, and you don't even know what it refers to or it means!
 
I say, EDUCATE ... instead of giving them just words and make it look like we know something ... that sometimes we don't ... we just have favorites!


A tiny bit of what you've said is a bit over my head, but I think I got the general idea. And I very much like your point. However, I think you can throw us a name, answer to the best of your ability, even if it won't work for everyone. You may consider any standards you want since it looks like there are lots of things I haven't foreseen when writing the OP.

So far these are perhaps the best answers that I've read:

Originally posted by Stool Man Stool Man wrote:

Choosing just one record means omitting all the others.  I'd say choose the best compilation out there, whatever that may be. 
It'd work as an introduction (which is what the OP asked for), and then afterwards the listener could hear other albums based on which compilation tracks they preferred.

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I say, EDUCATE ... instead of giving them just words and make it look like we know something ... that sometimes we don't ... we just have favorites!




Edited by Dayvenkirq - April 02 2012 at 23:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2012 at 14:45
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

What is the best record as an introduction to prog-rock?

I have a clue how to answer this question: something accessible, non-embarrassing, and quintessential of the genre. It all depends on the user: either "Dark Side of the Moon" or "Red." Gee, if I had to choose, ... let it be "Dark Side of the Moon."

What do you think?
 
I would probably start with ... NONE!
 
It will shock the audience and then you can move along ... the progressive movement is not something that came and went by our whims or some weird design of what music was or was supposed to become in the future ... like you and I already "knew" ...
 
This didn't start then, and the "progressive" phenomenon is not arbitrary based of one album, but was about the time and place, the music, the arts, the literature, the movies, the theater ... and what was happening at the time.
 
Anything else is superfluous and ... I think it reduces everything to Cliff Notes mentality for the masses! And the bad part? ... you can't have progressive music in a state of Cliff Notes! All of us would start the revolution all over again and probably call it Revolution #10 now ...
 
I think you have to make people aware of history better ... otherwise ... let's see ... do you go around saying that you listen to Beethoven because he was from the "romantic period"? .... and do you know anything, history wise about that time that helps you define that term and definition? ... now you know why I would like a much more quotidian study and definition for the term. You know the word, and you don't even know what it refers to or it means!
 
I say, EDUCATE ... instead of giving them just words and make it look like we know something ... that sometimes we don't ... we just have favorites!
 
 


Edited by moshkito - April 02 2012 at 15:17
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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