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Guldbamsen
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Posted: August 11 2013 at 12:07 |
I can't say that I know the evaluation process on either site, sorry Chris. I just find the individual tagging far more helpful, than what we have on here. I realise it would entail a monstrous overhaul of the site, but I can't help but think that it in the end would spare us from a lot of these threads.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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seventhsojourn
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Posted: August 11 2013 at 11:54 |
^ It would also be so much easier if, when someone suggested a new band, we simply said ''add the band.''
Seriously though, David, are you able to describe the evaluation process on JMA and MMA? I've had a cursory look at both sites and can't find the info.
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: August 11 2013 at 08:50 |
^Which is why it would be so much easier if we could use album tagging, thereby also getting rid of all the straight jazz albums that have nothing to do with this site. Then we could have The Seer listed as well as Histoire de Melody Nelson and Lonesome Crow. Works well on the metal n jazz archives.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Einsetumadur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 24 2008
Location: Germany
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Points: 265
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Posted: August 11 2013 at 08:44 |
Thank you for the explanation. I didn't know about the "one prog album" rule - that's a fair and adequate assessment.
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All in all each man in all men
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Dean
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Posted: August 09 2013 at 14:23 |
I don't see any benefit in changing how things are done to account for exceptions, in fact it could easily be argued that any changes should be made to exclude the exceptions rather than include them. We have discussed a catch-all category several times in the past and rejected the idea. The rule is "one prog album" - if accepted the entire discography is added regardless - this should not affect the evaluation, non prog albums are simply ignored for evalation purposes.
The indecision here is not whether they belong in Post Rock or some-other sub, but if they belong in PA or not at all - if the conclusion is that they belong then the particular sub should be obvious. If putting a band in a subgenre is so tenuous then there is a good case for not including them at all.
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What?
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Einsetumadur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 24 2008
Location: Germany
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Points: 265
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Posted: August 09 2013 at 12:44 |
Bonnek wrote:
Einsetumadur wrote:
3. The band is passed around from PA team to PA team for many months.
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Well that is not true.
Swans were very quickly moved from the Post-Metal chart because - as I hope you will agree - there's not a scrap of metal in any of the two albums that might warrant them a place on the site (Soundtracks For The Blind and The Seer) |
Of course, yes.
So in fact they've only been in the hands of the post-rock team and it's a tough one to decide there - as amply stated in this thread.
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Well, and that's the point I disagree with. I don't see decisions such as these as tough ones. The way I understand this thread there is a kind of dissent about where to put that band: either into PostRock, or into no category because there is none which matches the style of Swans. I think that this is just another facet of the problem. The more common case, of course, is the intersection area between post rock/metal/ambient/prog folk when bands fit into all of them/none of them. My point is that work, trouble and discussion could be reduced by: - generally regarding the categories less stiffly (as explained above) - generally maintaining the strictness of the inclusion criteria (!) - simply adding bands which 1. belong to this site, 2. have a considerable popularity, but which 3. no-one knows where to put into one category which fits, without thinking too much about the subjective question which genre the band identifies with most, which album is the most important one...etc.- creating a nice rule how to treat bands who recorded many albums which don't completely belong here but a few albums which clearly and definitely belong here. I don't think that such a procedure would result in the (of course, unfavorable(!)) situation that the PA are flooded with non-prog bands. It could, however, result in simpler solutions for the discussions about famous bands such as Motorpsycho/Trail of Dead/Swans etc. who 'converted' to progressive rock for some years, thus influencing the Prog genre due to the success/fame they established in earlier years. (To clarify things: I'm not informed about how the decisions are made here and watch the evaluation process from a certain 'distance'. As I said, it may be that some of the points I make describe the way how problems are already solved at the moment. Many of my aforementioned ideas may have proved senseless in the past. I've written them down nonetheless, just in order to use my 'neutral-bystander' point of view to write down some independent ideas, some of which might inspire someone to maybe reappraise certain routines - some of which might be useful, some of which might be improvable.)
Edited by Einsetumadur - August 09 2013 at 12:49
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All in all each man in all men
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Bonnek
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Posted: August 08 2013 at 17:04 |
Einsetumadur wrote:
3. The band is passed around from PA team to PA team for many months.
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Well that is not true. Swans were very quickly moved from the Post-Metal chart because - as I hope you will agree - there's not a scrap of metal in any of the two albums that might warrant them a place on the site (Soundtracks For The Blind and The Seer) So in fact they've only been in the hands of the post-rock team and it's a tough one to decide there - as amply stated in this thread. So as far as I know there's never been a dissent about which PA sub they fit, they fit in none at all, only - possibly - in post-rock, for only 2 out of the 13 something albums.
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Einsetumadur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 24 2008
Location: Germany
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Posted: August 08 2013 at 09:34 |
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid this is a definite misinterpretation of my posting. Firstly, it is slightly polemic to state that my interpretation is (more or less) the opposite of the meaning of the guidelines. The claim that my posting is one of those attempts to sneak a favorite
band into the PA simply isn't true. I know the special focussing of the PR category, and I am interested in supporting a valid
opinion which doesn't only consider one particular case, but also those cases
which are yet to come. I explicitly recognized the need of drawing the line between 'favourite bands' and 'prog bands' in my previous posting, quoting the heavily-discussed examples of Proto-Prog and Indie/Alternative-vs.-Prog. Secondly, I mentioned clearly (maybe not clearly enough to have mentioned it explicitly) that the "no-one really knows where to put" point should suffice as the sole reason for neither a PR addition nor any other ProgArchives addition. If, however, the following three aspects apply to the situation at the very same time... 1. Recent magazines and notable reviews discuss the album/band in the context of progressive rock and acknowledge their prog content. (!) 2. The band has a considerable publicity. 3. The band is passed around from PA team to PA team for many months. ... I think that the PR category does fit very well. Of course, one can argue that Swans aren't important enough to the Progressive Rock genre as a whole. That's a justifiable opinion, for sure. (No-one would like to see the PR category filled with small semi-pro bands without a clear musical direction, of course!) And this is why I supported a more uncomplicated addition to the sub-teams in such a case. I just wouldn't appreciate the situation that a band which both experimented with a lot of genres and had a considerable prog output is rejected by the sub-teams due to 'genre discrepancies' and then rejected by the PR team due to 'lack of relevance for ProgRock as a whole'. I see that the band is currently under evaluation in PostRock, but otherwise I think that the following procedure could be reasonable: If there are doubts about the contribution of a band to 'prog rock history', if there's a consent about the prog content about a band, but a dissent about the exact genre, the band should be allowed to be added to any category which the serious music press attributes it to. (Swans are commonly attributed to post punk/post rock/noise/experimental/industrial/neo-folk - hence, post rock would be the place to go.)Passing a band from team evaluation to team evaluation because the genre names don't fit perfectly well appears to me like a fruitless and avoidable endeavour. (Perhaps that's how things by now are already sorted out 'backstage', but that's what I thought up while reading this thread today.  )
Edited by Einsetumadur - August 08 2013 at 09:46
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All in all each man in all men
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zravkapt
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Posted: August 07 2013 at 19:35 |
Without going into too much detail, Swans are still under evaluation for the Post-Rock Team. We recently gained a member and their say might have an effect on whether Swans gets added or not. They would be added to PR/MR based only on their last three albums. If they don't get added to PR/MR they will probably never get on PA.
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Gordy
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Posted: August 07 2013 at 18:25 |
"The Seer" is spectacular and inventive for sure, but I hope the PA powers that be take "Soundtracks for the Blind" into account, as it's a veritable post-rock album (its spiritual successor, Godspeed's "F#A#∞", followed a year later).
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pianoman
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Posted: August 07 2013 at 14:40 |
I guess prog fans *are* kind of their own race...haha
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Smurph
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Posted: August 07 2013 at 14:03 |
pianoman wrote:
I'd love to see them included, just because I want to see what all of you people write about them haha |
What do you mean "you people"
That's racist ;)
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pianoman
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Location: USA
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Posted: August 07 2013 at 13:59 |
I'd love to see them included, just because I want to see what all of you people write about them haha
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
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Location: Wales
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Points: 13918
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Posted: August 07 2013 at 13:37 |
VOTOMS wrote:
I think Swans deserves more attention here. |
Well, they have had four pages of this thread so far. Quite a lot of attention, methinks.
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VOTOMS
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Posted: August 07 2013 at 11:06 |
I think Swans deserves more attention here.
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Dean
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Posted: August 07 2013 at 07:52 |
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What?
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Einsetumadur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 24 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 265
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Posted: August 07 2013 at 07:32 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
Hi there Max  Don't worry - you're not the only one who thinks The Seer is (some kind of) prog. Plus, reading your reviews, I think your definitions of 'prog' and all that seem quite well founded.............. and you've got just as much to say as the next guy around here. The problem however of including an act like Swans is finding out just exactly where to put them(if indeed collabs would support the notion). Personally I put Swans in the same pot as Current 93, and while they're actually here under prog folk, it took a long time for folks to evaluate them. |
Thank you for the clarifications  - it seemed to me the evaluation process stopped somewhere for no reason. To me the solution is quite simple - and goes along well with your opinion, too. Simply because the given criteria basically allow a clear decision! Prog Related:
7) Common sense - Nitpicking over the above listed criteria is not
necessarily the correct way to evaluate a band for prog-related.
Sometimes you just have to use some common sense and look at the big
picture.
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Exactly the kind of place where bands could go which clearly belong to this website, but which no-one really knows where to put, isn't it?  In my opinion these sentences are a perfect tool to solve problems such as these. Things would be so much easier if these categories were regarded as what they should be: 1. a means to split the admins'/collabs' maintenance work, 2. a way to simplify the band research for the PA readers. Imposing more meaning and relevance to these categories, frankly spoken, appears to me like futile pigeonholing. 
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All in all each man in all men
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Electrocuted
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Posted: August 07 2013 at 06:47 |
Has anybody had progressive sex, post sex or proto sex to 'The Seer'? I personally couldn't find a difference in either, but I heard different intricacies on each listen/sex binge which makes it Prog for me.
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Progression doesn't happen unless it is new!
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: August 06 2013 at 07:01 |
Hi there Max  Don't worry - you're not the only one who thinks The Seer is (some kind of) prog. Plus, reading your reviews, I think your definitions of 'prog' and all that seem quite well founded.............. and you've got just as much to say as the next guy around here. The problem however of including an act like Swans is finding out just exactly where to put them(if indeed collabs would support the notion). Personally I put Swans in the same pot as Current 93, and while they're actually here under prog folk, it took a long time for folks to evaluate them. Just for the record, I support the inclusion of Swans as well(Prog Related perhaps? One could always highlight an album like The Seer in a review and call it whatever one wishes to from post krautrock to psychedelic metal)
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Einsetumadur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 24 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 265
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Posted: August 06 2013 at 06:28 |
bytor2112 wrote:
Okay, I understand. I guess Swans aren't PA's kind of "Progressive", that's fine. |
After listening to "Seer" by The Swans I was plainly shocked not to find them in the ProgArchives. The earlier albums might be different, but *this* album fits into all prog categories. It's justifiable to reject some ProtoProg bands or to draw a clear line between indie and 'prog' - that's a matter of opinion. But I don't see any scope of interpretation in the prog relevance of "The Seer". I suppose I'll never ever understand the addition criteria here.
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All in all each man in all men
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