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Joined: September 10 2010
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Points: 6253
Posted: February 24 2013 at 00:04
rogerthat wrote:
Holdsworth can play that fast too, and in legato with incredible chord changes.
DiMeola relies on what, tremolo picking, over a repetitive pattern? There are plenty of virtuosos I'd much rather listen to, someone like Larry Carlton plays the most interesting leads without ever relying on speed. Just listen to the chord changes on Kid Charlemagne. It's probably fair to say DiMeola paved the way for the annoying showboats of the 80s, who rendered the guitar God permanently boring for he has in common with them an obsession with speed.
Brill vid you posted Rogerthat however I should put you across my lap and smack you on your bottom coz Al is brillll too this is for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcsVOQ82wLA
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 23:48
Holdsworth can play that fast too, and in legato with incredible chord changes.
DiMeola relies on what, tremolo picking, over a repetitive pattern? There are plenty of virtuosos I'd much rather listen to, someone like Larry Carlton plays the most interesting leads without ever relying on speed. Just listen to the chord changes on Kid Charlemagne. It's probably fair to say DiMeola paved the way for the annoying showboats of the 80s, who rendered the guitar God permanently boring for he has in common with them an obsession with speed.
Joined: September 10 2010
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Points: 6253
Posted: February 23 2013 at 16:39
TODDLER wrote:
Kati wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
RBlak054 wrote:
Kati wrote:
Al DiMeola to me is certainly a virtouso, no one can play like him, he was voted the fastest guitarist in the world (this does not mean much to me but felt the need to mention to those who don't know him) but he didn't like to be classified as such. Al is a virtuouso and not commercial like Santana as he refused to conform to the pop culture, once your hear race with the devil on a spanish highway, you'll know what I mean and where I come from too the problem is what I mentioned above, he refuses to conform thus not known to the crossover fans
Glad to hear that you're an Al Di Meola fan! He has always been one of my favourite fusion players, and is a perfect example of a virtuoso who can play unbelievably fast and still keep things musical and interesting. The album Elegant Gypsy, in particular, really seems to capture his talent.
He is in no way the fastest guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player magazine or any other publication? They are not musicians but journalists and even if they were musicians who became journalists or judges on "American Idol" ..they are beyond questionable. Not that a guitarist playing at impeccable speed should logically give any journalist/music fan/record company a quest for comparison to others. Pat Metheny, George Benson, Pat Martino, John McLaughlin, can easily play at the speed of Al DiMeola. They don't choose to because they design their music differently. There are plenty of guitarists that hail from Mexico and Spain who could play just as fast or even faster ..but with their fingertips instead of a pick. Guitarists from the "Swing era played faster than the speed of light. ...so to speak...because seriously these votes are contrived and when they are not..they usually remain to be totally wrong from every stand point of so called intellectual observation. Whether it's a musician whose getting paid to say something false so that the industry can wave Eric Clapton under everyone's nose or a so called judge who uses fancy college words ...yet when it comes down to music...they know nothing of it and are role playing a host position like a moron who wants money and has no other alternative but to be ignorant about the art in music.
Toodler,
I will rephrase it, Al Di Meola is arguably the fastest TECHNICAL Guitar Player. Di Meola is known for his technical mastery and extremely fast, complex guitar solos and compositions. Al's technical ability and complex compositions on both electric and acoustic guitar are undeniable.
Your question and I quote “He is in no way the fastest guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player magazine or any other publication?”
My answer: In the 70's DiMeola held the Guinness World Record for Fastest Guitarist. Besides the above fact you can google search fastest guitarist and AL’s name will often appear on various music related sites including Guitar Player Magazine which has placed Al DiMeola in the Magazine’s Hall of Fame of The Greats and has brought him four straight wins as Best Jazz Guitarist in the Guitar Player Readers Poll, as well as three awards for the Best Guitar Albums.
The fastest guitar player is often disputed and currently two of the fastest players are Tiago Della Vega and Randall Padilla however DiMeola has more technical skills.
I can understand this being true in the 70's when he first hit the Jazz/ fusion scene as a solo artist. But..honestly? There are many guitarists from the 30's and 40's who played just as fast and more technical. That's all I'm saying really. There were jazz guitarists in the 50's, 60's and 70's also that ...if they desired they could play as fast as Al DiMeola. There were other masters who....if put on the spot...could give him a run for speed and definitely keep up with his gymnastics and even be more technical....but you have to research it or take up guitar and play every fast Jazz solo from every master dating back to the 30's and on. I mean...I don't trust those polls based on these facts. If you play this kind of music on an instrument, you would surely understand why I disagree with his rating over others of the Jazz world. I do agree that he could have very well been the fastest during a specific period of the 70's..but not compared to players from other decades before him....or actually some 70's Jazz guitarists who disliked playing fast ...but very well could...may have given him a spin during a jam session. They were never in the spotlight like he was and so music fans of the world don't even consider them as a comparison.
Obviously when it comes to Al DiMeola we will both have to agree to disagree.
Al DiMeola to me is certainly a virtouso, no one can play like him, he was voted the fastest guitarist in the world (this does not mean much to me but felt the need to mention to those who don't know him) but he didn't like to be classified as such. Al is a virtuouso and not commercial like Santana as he refused to conform to the pop culture, once your hear race with the devil on a spanish highway, you'll know what I mean and where I come from too the problem is what I mentioned above, he refuses to conform thus not known to the crossover fans
Glad to hear that you're an Al Di Meola fan! He has always been one of my favourite fusion players, and is a perfect example of a virtuoso who can play unbelievably fast and still keep things musical and interesting. The album Elegant Gypsy, in particular, really seems to capture his talent.
He is in no way the fastest guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player magazine or any other publication? They are not musicians but journalists and even if they were musicians who became journalists or judges on "American Idol" ..they are beyond questionable. Not that a guitarist playing at impeccable speed should logically give any journalist/music fan/record company a quest for comparison to others. Pat Metheny, George Benson, Pat Martino, John McLaughlin, can easily play at the speed of Al DiMeola. They don't choose to because they design their music differently. There are plenty of guitarists that hail from Mexico and Spain who could play just as fast or even faster ..but with their fingertips instead of a pick. Guitarists from the "Swing era played faster than the speed of light. ...so to speak...because seriously these votes are contrived and when they are not..they usually remain to be totally wrong from every stand point of so called intellectual observation. Whether it's a musician whose getting paid to say something false so that the industry can wave Eric Clapton under everyone's nose or a so called judge who uses fancy college words ...yet when it comes down to music...they know nothing of it and are role playing a host position like a moron who wants money and has no other alternative but to be ignorant about the art in music.
Toodler,
I will rephrase it, Al Di
Meola is arguably the fastest TECHNICAL Guitar Player. Di Meola is known for his technical mastery and extremely fast,
complex guitar solos and compositions. Al's
technical ability and complex compositions on
both electric and acoustic guitar are undeniable.
Your
question and I quote “He is in no way the fastest
guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player
magazine or any other publication?”
My
answer: In
the 70's DiMeola held the Guinness World Record for Fastest Guitarist. Besides
the above fact you can google search fastest guitarist and AL’s name will often
appear on various music related sites including Guitar Player Magazine which
has placed Al DiMeola in the Magazine’s Hall of Fame of The Greats and has brought him four straight wins as Best
Jazz Guitarist in the Guitar Player Readers Poll, as well as three awards for
the Best Guitar Albums.
The fastest guitar player is often disputed and currently two of the fastest players are Tiago Della Vega and Randall Padilla however DiMeola has more technical skills.
I can understand this being true in the 70's when he first hit the Jazz/ fusion scene as a solo artist. But..honestly? There are many guitarists from the 30's and 40's who played just as fast and more technical. That's all I'm saying really. There were jazz guitarists in the 50's, 60's and 70's also that ...if they desired they could play as fast as Al DiMeola. There were other masters who....if put on the spot...could give him a run for speed and definitely keep up with his gymnastics and even be more technical....but you have to research it or take up guitar and play every fast Jazz solo from every master dating back to the 30's and on. I mean...I don't trust those polls based on these facts. If you play this kind of music on an instrument, you would surely understand why I disagree with his rating over others of the Jazz world. I do agree that he could have very well been the fastest during a specific period of the 70's..but not compared to players from other decades before him....or actually some 70's Jazz guitarists who disliked playing fast ...but very well could...may have given him a spin during a jam session. They were never in the spotlight like he was and so music fans of the world don't even consider them as a comparison.
Joined: June 04 2012
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 15:07
I have just realized what my problem with Guthrie Govan and the Aristocrats is: they play way too fast for the amount of musical contents they deliver while doing that
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 14:45
Al DiMeola? Ha ha. Fast yes he is. BUT.. he never liked that kind of fan worship of speed. My fave Meola was the early days. Accoustic and electric. One thing he did that nobody else did back then was play all the notes. No tricks, no blurring. Incredible melodic content to my ears and also playing faster than it sounded like he was. He was how a fast guitarist should be in my opinion. Race with the Devil on Spanish highway remains one of my 2 fave "rock" tracks of all time. The other is Hocus Pocus. Neither of them are proper rock but they are truly original and leave me with my mouth gaping. They still do.
Joined: September 10 2010
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 13:35
Argonaught wrote:
I don't know if the max. playing speed per se is a good measure of virtuosity and/or comparison criteria. I can hit the "=" button on my calculator 12 times a second; shall I claim the next year Nobel Prize in maths?
hahaha!! Argonaught Yes true playing fast and being a virtouso are two different things. I gave an example of Al DiMeola because he held the Guinness World Record for being the fastest but doesn't want to be known as the fastest guitarist either because he much prefers to be known for his technical mastery, complex guitar solos and musical compositions.
Joined: September 10 2010
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 13:13
TODDLER wrote:
RBlak054 wrote:
Kati wrote:
Al DiMeola to me is certainly a virtouso, no one can play like him, he was voted the fastest guitarist in the world (this does not mean much to me but felt the need to mention to those who don't know him) but he didn't like to be classified as such. Al is a virtuouso and not commercial like Santana as he refused to conform to the pop culture, once your hear race with the devil on a spanish highway, you'll know what I mean and where I come from too the problem is what I mentioned above, he refuses to conform thus not known to the crossover fans
Glad to hear that you're an Al Di Meola fan! He has always been one of my favourite fusion players, and is a perfect example of a virtuoso who can play unbelievably fast and still keep things musical and interesting. The album Elegant Gypsy, in particular, really seems to capture his talent.
He is in no way the fastest guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player magazine or any other publication? They are not musicians but journalists and even if they were musicians who became journalists or judges on "American Idol" ..they are beyond questionable. Not that a guitarist playing at impeccable speed should logically give any journalist/music fan/record company a quest for comparison to others. Pat Metheny, George Benson, Pat Martino, John McLaughlin, can easily play at the speed of Al DiMeola. They don't choose to because they design their music differently. There are plenty of guitarists that hail from Mexico and Spain who could play just as fast or even faster ..but with their fingertips instead of a pick. Guitarists from the "Swing era played faster than the speed of light. ...so to speak...because seriously these votes are contrived and when they are not..they usually remain to be totally wrong from every stand point of so called intellectual observation. Whether it's a musician whose getting paid to say something false so that the industry can wave Eric Clapton under everyone's nose or a so called judge who uses fancy college words ...yet when it comes down to music...they know nothing of it and are role playing a host position like a moron who wants money and has no other alternative but to be ignorant about the art in music.
Toodler,
I will rephrase it, Al Di
Meola is arguably the fastest TECHNICAL Guitar Player. Di Meola is known for his technical mastery and extremely fast,
complex guitar solos and compositions. Al's
technical ability and complex compositions on
both electric and acoustic guitar are undeniable.
Your
question and I quote “He is in no way the fastest
guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player
magazine or any other publication?”
My
answer: In
the 70's DiMeola held the Guinness World Record for Fastest Guitarist. Besides
the above fact you can google search fastest guitarist and AL’s name will often
appear on various music related sites including Guitar Player Magazine which
has placed Al DiMeola in the Magazine’s Hall of Fame of The Greats and has brought him four straight wins as Best
Jazz Guitarist in the Guitar Player Readers Poll, as well as three awards for
the Best Guitar Albums.
The fastest guitar player is often disputed and currently two of the fastest players are Tiago Della Vega and Randall Padilla however DiMeola has more technical skills.
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970
Posted: February 23 2013 at 11:03
Argonaught wrote:
I don't know if the max. playing speed per se is a good measure of virtuosity and/or comparison criteria. I can hit the "=" button on my calculator 12 times a second; shall I claim the next year Nobel Prize in maths?
Look, I attended MUS121 (music appreciation class) in community college, and we were told that "[a] virtuoso [is a] master of his own instrument", ... and that does not necessarily imply speed, but just the knowledge of a number of aspects of the instrument or the ways in which the instrument can be used.
Joined: May 25 2011
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Points: 10970
Posted: February 23 2013 at 10:54
The Dark Elf wrote:
Getting back to wherever it was in the discussion that folks were actually commenting on the role of virtuosity in Progressive music, ...
The discussion we were having was actually very crucial to helping the forum members understand and get clarification on a number of things, so that they could look at the topic of this thread with a different (if at all) perspective. For instance, I was reminded that the role of virtuosity in progressive music (I presume RBlak means prog rock, not just progressive music (as it says in the title), but I may be wrong) really depends on what is important to the listener or to the artist, not just a group of listeners as a whole. We can't make a general statement about the listeners.
As for the discussion that is going on between Gerinski, TODDLER, rogerthat, and others, ... I'm not quite sure if it falls under "relevant" as I haven't read it in its entirety.
That said, I think I'm gonna stand by what I believe in as an individual: that art and entertainment are mutually exclusive and were never perceived by me while acting as a whole single unit at any single timeframe, and that technical proficiency is only important to me in entertainment (think prog rock, and that's where I'm hitting the nail of relevance here), but never important to me in art. However, I was given the opportunity to infer by myself, on my own terms, that virtuosity and technical proficiency are two different animals, which means that virtuosity may have a place in art for me, be that in prog or not.
I don't know if the max. playing speed per se is a good measure of virtuosity and/or comparison criteria. I can hit the "=" button on my calculator 12 times a second; shall I claim the next year Nobel Prize in maths?
Joined: February 17 2013
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 09:14
TODDLER wrote:
RBlak054 wrote:
Kati wrote:
Al DiMeola to me is certainly a virtouso, no one can play like him, he was voted the fastest guitarist in the world (this does not mean much to me but felt the need to mention to those who don't know him) but he didn't like to be classified as such. Al is a virtuouso and not commercial like Santana as he refused to conform to the pop culture, once your hear race with the devil on a spanish highway, you'll know what I mean and where I come from too the problem is what I mentioned above, he refuses to conform thus not known to the crossover fans
Glad to hear that you're an Al Di Meola fan! He has always been one of my favourite fusion players, and is a perfect example of a virtuoso who can play unbelievably fast and still keep things musical and interesting. The album Elegant Gypsy, in particular, really seems to capture his talent.
He is in no way the fastest guitarist in the world. Wherever this information was printed ...Guitar Player magazine or any other publication? They are not musicians but journalists and even if they were musicians who became journalists or judges on "American Idol" ..they are beyond questionable. Not that a guitarist playing at impeccable speed should logically give any journalist/music fan/record company a quest for comparison to others. Pat Metheny, George Benson, Pat Martino, John McLaughlin, can easily play at the speed of Al DiMeola. They don't choose to because they design their music differently. There are plenty of guitarists that hail from Mexico and Spain who could play just as fast or even faster ..but with their fingertips instead of a pick. Guitarists from the "Swing era played faster than the speed of light. ...so to speak...because seriously these votes are contrived and when they are not..they usually remain to be totally wrong from every stand point of so called intellectual observation. Whether it's a musician whose getting paid to say something false so that the industry can wave Eric Clapton under everyone's nose or a so called judge who uses fancy college words ...yet when it comes down to music...they know nothing of it and are role playing a host position like a moron who wants money and has no other alternative but to be ignorant about the art in music.
Kati was claiming that Al Di Meola was voted the fastest guitar player, so perhaps the attacks against music publications are not relevant here (although I too agree that their quality and "expertise" leaves more than a little to be desired).
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 08:16
Indeed it is not. Might be easier to repeat a note very fast than to play chromatic notes very quickly. Then play it over an odd time sig and it gets even harder.
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 08:12
I don't know if the max. playing speed per se is a good measure of virtuosity and/or comparison criteria. I can hit the "=" button on my calculator 12 times a second; shall I claim the next year Nobel Prize in maths?
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 08:09
Hey, can't curb the enthusiasm of people. For that matter, how many would know that U Shrinivas can match step with McLaughlin on mandolin? I can attest to that, having watched both in concert. He's a child prodigy, a celebrated genius here but doesn't have a high profile worldwide where India begins and ends with Ravi Shankar. People are quick to have opinions about everything and perhaps a touch less eager to find out something new.
RBlak054 and Kati have every right to their opinion but on the other hand, Comparing DiMeola to Shane or if they...(who work for the publications industry) or whatever they do for a living...maybe they are a plumber or pick up trash for the city have no musicial knowledge to make such analogy. They are out of bounds and have no idea whatsoever what it would be like to devote their life to an instrument. They hear a fast note passage and feel overwhelmed. They come across having knowledge of technical playing and pointing out flaws, speed control...yet they lack the ability to conceive if one fast and long extensive passage of notes might be really easy to play or if another passage of speed demon playing notes could, would? be more complex than Al Dimeola because it's being played by a guitarist who chooses not to play fast that often. That's moronic. That is truly farce. That is sub-moronic. Who do these people think they are? They know nothing.
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Posted: February 23 2013 at 07:45
^^^ Certainly, DeLucia had no problems playing at DiMeola's pace in the San Francisco concert. As good as DiMeola is, he is not quite a monster (on electric) like Shawn Lane, imho.
On a similar note, some magazine once voted Geddy Lee the best keyboardist in prog, a result which would have probably embarrassed even him. I mean, that's got to be a joke.
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Posted: February 24 2013 at 00:12
however I should put you across my lap and smack you on your bottom coz Al is brillll too 
this is for you 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcsVOQ82wLA
Yes true playing fast and being a virtouso are two different things. I gave an example of Al DiMeola because he held the Guinness World Record for being the fastest but doesn't want to be known as the fastest guitarist either because he much prefers to be known for his technical mastery, complex guitar solos and musical compositions. 
The Role of Virtuosity in Progressive Music
Topic Options
rogerthat wrote:
the problem is what I mentioned above, he refuses to conform thus not known to the crossover fans 