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Poll Question: Should Boston be given a spot in prog related?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
12 [29.27%]
29 [70.73%]
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Slartibartfast View Drop Down
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 16:08
Chowduh, anyone?
Perhaps we can settle this over a nice steaming bowl?


Edited by Slartibartfast - November 12 2007 at 16:13
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 15:58
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

  A BAND MUST BLEND AT LEAST SOME PROG ELEMENTS....BOSTON DOESN'T BLEND THEM....AS CLEAR AS WATER, NOT ONLY FOR ME BUT FOR THE HUGE MAJORITY OF THIS FORUM MEMBERS.
 
 
I don't believe that's the case on either count. I won't get into details about their albums but I believe the evidence is there on all their releases.
 
27 votes in total so far. Hopefully that's not a majority of our forum members!
 
(By the way, I don't have my admin hat on in this threadWink)
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:40
oh well... I tried people LOL
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:40
Ghost of Morphy wrote:
Quote
And yet you still persist in your obtuse insistance that to be prog-related something must sound like prog. 
 
Just one more thing Micky before i stop this.
 
Something that shouldn't be done is changing my words, Ghost of Morphy has said i claim that to be Prog related, a band must sound luike Prog.
 
I checked the 10 posts I wrote in this thread, and never said that:
 
I have used the terms:
 
1.- Related
2.- Close
3.- Similar (just as a pleonasm)
4.- Influenced
5.- Influential
 
But I never said that Prog Related has to sound like Prog.
 
So please, if you are going to quote me Ghost of Morphy, please use thje words i use, ddon't invent phrases that I never said.
 
BTW: You never documented anything in your first post, you only gave your opinion, that for me and 7 out of each forum members is wrong.
 
That's all.
 
Iván
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 12 2007 at 14:43
            
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:33
hahahhahah....  let me step in between you two, here before someone's head explodes here LOL

You don't... we don't.... admins define PR... you all are just getting yourselves worked up for nothing.  I don't... and  you don't have any say in this....  if someone proposes it to the admins... they should and will hopefully evaluate them.   Let's give it rest.. for your sakes.. and ours as well.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 14:23
Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

 
Skipping all of the other obtuseness, this is extremely clear.   Boston received clear musical influence from this genre, which has been thoroughly documented, and which I cited in my original post.
 
The "or" in the above thread is  a conjunction that signifies that if one of the conditions (such as the one mentioned above) is true, then the statement is true regardless of the other conditions.  Boston received clear musical influence, hence Boston is prog-related.
 
If you support the definition you cite, you support Boston's inclusion.
 
And yet you still persist in your obtuse insistance that to be prog-related something must sound like prog.  That's silly.  What sounds like prog IS prog!!!!  Not prog-related, prog!!!!  If you don't like the sound of Boston, that's fine, but don't pretend that you are following the definition instead of your whims and preferences.
 
Seems the only obtuse are you, I don't believe Boston received Prog influence,Boston is AOR = Classic Rock + POP, as simple as that.
 
I don't say a band must sound like Prog to be prog Related (PLEASE QUOTE ME), that's what you add because of your lack of understanding, A BAND MUST BLEND AT LEAST SOME PROG ELEMENTS....BOSTON DOESN'T BLEND THEM....AS CLEAR AS WATER, NOT ONLY FOR ME BUT FOR THE HUGE MAJORITY OF THIS FORUM MEMBERS.
 
But who cares, probably they will be added and each time our identity will be more lost.
 
Iván
 
BTW: Don't try to teach me to uinderstand the definition of Prog Relater, I WROTE IT!!!!!


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 12 2007 at 14:45
            
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Points: 2755 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 13:48
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

[ 
The obnly one that sees the Paradox are you, the definition is clear:
 

Quote Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:

- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, OR
Phil Collins received Motown influence, he never played a singgle Prog chord in his solo career, neither Toto or Boston
 
Skipping all of the other obtuseness, this is extremely clear.   Boston received clear musical influence from this genre, which has been thoroughly documented, and which I cited in my original post.
 
The "or" in the above thread is  a conjunction that signifies that if one of the conditions (such as the one mentioned above) is true, then the statement is true regardless of the other conditions.  Boston received clear musical influence, hence Boston is prog-related.
 
If you support the definition you cite, you support Boston's inclusion.
 
And yet you still persist in your obtuse insistance that to be prog-related something must sound like prog.  That's silly.  What sounds like prog IS prog!!!!  Not prog-related, prog!!!!  If you don't like the sound of Boston, that's fine, but don't pretend that you are following the definition instead of your whims and preferences.
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 13:47
^ they didn't make Bob an admin just for his looks alone you know LOL
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Points: 2755 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 13:40
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

I hear what you say Ivan, and thankfully this thread has so far been devoid of such comments. In times past though, even though the wording of the question was clear, we still got posts saying "no because they are not prog".
 
For me, the question here is would adding Boston to the site bring in people who would be interested in prog? I believe the answer to that is a definite YES.
 
This may be the most interesting comment in the whole thread, as it provides a clear and concise reason why Boston should be included, why Toto should be excluded, and why Phil Collins solo should probably be excluded as well.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 13:15
Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

 
You are engaged in a paradox of massive proportions here.   You claim that prog related is NOT progressive music, but you justify rejecting music because it isn't related musically (i.e. doesn't sound like prog.)  Well, what is progressive music except something that sounds like it?  
 
The obnly one that sees the Paradox are you, the definition is clear:
 

[quote]Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:

- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, OR

Phil Collins received Motown influence, he never played a singgle Prog chord in his solo career, neither Toto or Boston

- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, OR
 
Clear as water, Phil solo career, Bioston or Toto have influenced no Prog band.

- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.
 
This is wehere your confusion starts, a prog band is one that has most of the elements of the genre of the genre and is accepted by the community as that, a Prog Related one is a band that is not part of the Progressive Rock genre, but blends some elements with mainstream music.
 
Not the case of Phil Collins who played bland POP and nothing else during hiiw whole careeror Boston that played AOR neither Toto who blennded Pop with diluted Jazz.
[quote]
 
It's transparent.
 
The fallacy should be quite apparent to anyone.  You are refusing to let in bands to a genre that is there for music that doesn't sound like prog because the music doesn't sound like prog
 
No is not, I, as 73% of the voters in one poll and 66% of the voters in the other Poll   agree with adding a  band that is not Prog, and
  1. Is not influenced by Prog
  2. Is influential for Prog
  3. Blends Prog elements with other genres.

If you still have problems, well isd futile trying to explain to you.

Iván
            
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 12:55
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

[ 
Toto is ridiculoyus, after Roxana, Hollyana, Hold the Line, Africa, Georgy Porgy, etc etc etc, that are simple POP tracks blended with diluted Jazz, they released one  song that could be considered remotely related and that's Child's Anthem, one song in more than 20 albums doesn't justify their inclusion.
 
Neither Boston, not a single Prog or similar to prog or related to prog track.
 
Check Prog bands, this is a Prog site.
 
Iván
I think the Dune soundtrack was as close as Toto got to prog.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 2755 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 12:07
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

It would be clearly idiotic to claim that a guy who PLAYED in one of the seminal progressive rock bands was not the slightest bit influenced MUSICALLYy by what he had spent a decade playing., and no doubt Phil Collins fans, should there be any, could point out exactly where those influences manifest themselves.  So condition #1 is clearly fulfilled for Collins, and a strong argument could be made on that basis for the Pocaros' as well.
 
 
In first place, if nobody tells you, I won't accept to qualify my opinions of idiotic, this is disrespectful.
 
Second: In his SOLO CAREER Phil Collins din nothing related to Prog, we don't add a musician because he played in a Prog band, if not Billy Joel would be here because he played in a semi Prog band called Attila.
 
Focus in his solo carrer. noty a single Prog or Prog Related song.
 
BTW;: For the person who accused me of having heard all Toto, I stated before, I have all Toto albums because my sister is a fan, and I don't see anything Prog in them.
 
And saying Prog Related is not Prog doesn't mean the artist doesn't has at least to be related MUSICALLY.
 
Iván
 
You are engaged in a paradox of massive proportions here.   You claim that prog related is NOT progressive music, but you justify rejecting music because it isn't related musically (i.e. doesn't sound like prog.)  Well, what is progressive music except something that sounds like it?   The fallacy should be quite apparent to anyone.  You are refusing to let in bands to a genre that is there for music that doesn't sound like prog because the music doesn't sound like prog.
 
You probably need to read that a couple of times so that what you are really saying has a chance to sink in.
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 11:50
Ivan, I was not suggesting for a minute that you had misunderstood the poll question!
 
Looks however like you may not be reading mine though.Wink I said "bring in people who would be interested in prog".
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 11:44
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

I hear what you say Ivan, and thankfully this thread has so far been devoid of such comments. In times past though, even though the wording of the question was clear, we still got posts saying "no because they are not prog".
 
Seems you're not reading my posts Bob, I clearly said No because Boston IS NOT PROG RELATED, I repeated 5 or 6 times the term Prog Related and i know what it means.
 
For me, the question here is would adding Boston to the site bring in people who would be interested in prog? I believe the answer to that is a definite YES.
 
Is this the new requirement to add  a band to Prog Related?
 
Then lets bring Michael Jackson, Elton John, Europe, ABBA, they will bring more people to the site.
 
If it's already decided,. i'm wasting my time un this thrad, sorry for concerning about the credibility and accuracy of the site.
 
 
Now the second:
 
Originally posted by Lady In Black Lady In Black wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

[
 
Neither Boston, not a single Prog or similar to prog or related to prog track.
 
Check Prog bands, this is a Prog site.
 
Iván
 
Improper sentence Ivan, because if PR isn't a genre this sentence isn't totally correct because It seems to make understand that PR is a genre, thing that isn't.
 
This is the motive for which they made these proposals of inclusions.  It isn't clear the concept of family, to apply, according to me, also to true genres. 
 
Surely my English is not as good as a native born USA or British, but I believe I was clear, I said Boston doesbn't have a similar or nearly similar or Related Prog Track.
 
BTW: If you read the Prog related definition, my name is in the botton, because I wrote it and was approved by the Adms and M@X so I believe i know what Prog Related means.
 
The last sentence, is a request for people to worry for Prog bands not for doubious related bands.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 12 2007 at 11:45
            
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 11:22
Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

It would be clearly idiotic to claim that a guy who PLAYED in one of the seminal progressive rock bands was not the slightest bit influenced MUSICALLYy by what he had spent a decade playing., and no doubt Phil Collins fans, should there be any, could point out exactly where those influences manifest themselves.  So condition #1 is clearly fulfilled for Collins, and a strong argument could be made on that basis for the Pocaros' as well.
 
 
In first place, if nobody tells you, I won't accept to qualify my opinions of idiotic, this is disrespectful.
 
Second: In his SOLO CAREER Phil Collins din nothing related to Prog, we don't add a musician because he played in a Prog band, if not Billy Joel would be here because he played in a semi Prog band called Attila.
 
Focus in his solo carrer. noty a single Prog or Prog Related song.
 
BTW;: For the person who accused me of having heard all Toto, I stated before, I have all Toto albums because my sister is a fan, and I don't see anything Prog in them.
 
And saying Prog Related is not Prog doesn't mean the artist doesn't has at least to be related MUSICALLY.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 12 2007 at 11:23
            
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Points: 401 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 08:51
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Toto is ridiculoyus, after Roxana, Hollyana, Hold the Line, Africa, Georgy Porgy, etc etc etc, that are simple POP tracks blended with diluted Jazz, they released one  song that could be considered remotely related and that's Child's Anthem, one song in more than 20 albums doesn't justify their inclusion.
 
Neither Boston, not a single Prog or similar to prog or related to prog track.
 
Check Prog bands, this is a Prog site.
 
Iván
You obviously stopped listening Toto at an early stage. Your miss, not mine.
 
When thinking about prog, Boston is not the first name that comes to my mind (nor is Toto or Journey), but the argument can be made for some of their single songs. I'm in favour of the fact that complete discographies are here (if not, discussions could really go on forever), but it's clear that a lot of bands are only partly prog (Genesis as the fairest example). The same goes for Prog Related and Proto Prog: most included bands were only fitting the PR or PP definition in a part of their career.
 
Perhaps we can define that 'part' a bit, rather than making the obvious popular laughs?
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Points: 183 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 06:06
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

[
 
Neither Boston, not a single Prog or similar to prog or related to prog track.
 
Check Prog bands, this is a Prog site.
 
Iván
 
Improper sentence Ivan, because if PR isn't a genre this sentence isn't totally correct because It seems to make understand that PR is a genre, thing that isn't.
 
This is the motive for which they made these proposals of inclusions.  It isn't clear the concept of family, to apply, according to me, also to true genres. 
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Points: 183 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 06:00
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

I hear what you say Ivan, and thankfully this thread has so far been devoid of such comments. In times past though, even though the wording of the question was clear, we still got posts saying "no because they are not prog".
 
For me, the question here is would adding Boston to the site bring in people who would be interested in prog? I believe the answer to that is a definite YES.
 
And for me this is a case like the case of Journey or Toto (more Toto, of course!).


Edited by Lady In Black - November 12 2007 at 06:00
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Points: 24439 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 05:59
LOLLOLLOL
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2007 at 05:47
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Dean... we can take up Boston for Xover.. but do recommend bringing your athletic supporter with the big ass cup.. and even a  bulletproof vest to our meetings.  We might need as squad to SAS troops to keep us from getting mowed down as we enjoy our linguine and chianti LOL

btw. I'll get you some Rundgren so we had put that baby to rest....
I wouldn't want to pit the SAS against the massed ranks of the Prog Battalions, it would be a blood-bath Cry
 
 
What?
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