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Topic ClosedWill piracy kill off prog rock ?

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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 17:02
The Cloud will get hacked eventually and then the sky will fall, too much weight for those fluffy things to hold.

As some have stated, not an issue for me as I buy physical versions.

Prog will go on...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 15:24
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Keeping track of the money I make off music versus what I spend...In the last year I have spent 10,500$ so far, about to spend another 4,000$ in December, then next year there's probably going to be just as much money spent.I have made about 150 dollars in sales this year and I lose money every show that I play (that's not factored into my expenses).
Yet I still keep making music. No matter how little people care. I will always keep making music. Till I die and rot.
As long as people like me are around there will still be prog rock.
Don't despair Smurph, Wayne Coyne of The Flaming Lips worked as a dishwasher for the first four years that his was signed to Warner Bro. Records. Most of the business end in music recording, publishing and distribution made the lion's share of the profits over the years so I don't see that really changing with the "Robin Hoods" of Piracy. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Just keep on doing your thing but you should always keep this in mind.

Edited by SteveG - September 23 2014 at 16:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 15:12
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Most people downloading prog albums do not buy them afterwards. Even so called  "fans" of x band do this, and as a result of this fewer records are sold. ...
 
If this is the case, it is sad indeed, and one reason to kill it. However, I doubt it. The same story existed 40 years ago, and Led Zeppelin and the Rolling Stones, and Beatles and Grateful Dead and Bob Dylan did just fine, thank you!
Sometimes I despair at how narrow thinking can get around here.

If a 10,000 people stole from Lead Zeppeling it wasn't going to hurt them when they were on their way to selling 37 million copies of  the Four Symbols logo ... As you say, they did just fine. Peter Grant would probably have ripped your thieving arm off and beaten you to death with the soggy end, but you know, it was just business... he was hard man, vicious but fair.

But if 100 people steal from (say) Pseudo/Sentai that's a different matter, they are not on their way to selling 37 million copies of their CD, so that's $500 missing from Greg's bottom-line. And that's not fine at all.
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
In many ways, this "piracy" thing, is a media scare to intimidate you, and it is engineered by big name lawyer and music groups that don't need the money. And they waste it on these kinds of situations, when in effect, the so called "piracy" and ability to get around "radio" and the printed media is one of the MAJOR REASONS why "progressive music" has come this far.
In so many ways that is total bollocks. This is not Robin Hood who only steals from the rich situation. Piracy knows no boundaries, once the mentality of "All Labels Are Bad" sets in then those that download will steal from everyone and anyone. There is no moral dilemma being played out here, there is no redressing of a perceived social-economic imbalance
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

  
I would hate to see it stop and end up going back to the controlling days of music companies. Remember, ABOVE ALL, that the world's worst business desicions ever made were ... you got it ... better check it out ... they were the rock bands that busted it all into what it is today ... and "piracy" had a lot to do with it.
Utter rubbish (well, that part of it that I could understand was... the rest... incoherent).

Record companies are not monsters, they are a business. The purpose of a business is to make money, selling music is how they do that. A record label is not a public service, it is a factory for making a product. You may not like the idea of "Art" as a commodity but that is how it has always been, you make something and sell it, simple commerce - that's how it works, it worked for Mickey Angelo, it worked for Johnny Seb Bach and it worked for Billy S Burroughs - even worked for Vinney van Gogh who would barter paintings for a bowl of bouillabaisse at the Café du Tambourin. If you can sell your art you can eat.

The way music companies works seems unfair and in some ways it was, but not in every way. The label funded the recording and production, it paid for the manufacture and distribution and recouped that outlay on sales. If the record didn't sell they lost money... the company lost money not the artist, who invariably kept the advance (ie a loan in advance of sales) the company paid them. That lost money came from the profits they made on all the successful albums they also made. Mike Oldfield (bless his cotton socks) paid for all the albums made by Clearlight, Slapp Happy, Jabula and all those other Virgin artists who didn't sell thousands of albums. That was tough on Mr Oldfield (bless his cotton socks) but it was great for Cyrille Verdeaux, Dagmar, Madumetja Ranku and many other musicians who got to record their albums because Virgin gave them a chance, all thanks to Mikey "O" (bless his cotton socks). Bad business decisions... you betcha, but what great music as a result of that.

Today it doesn't work like that because we broke the music business, now the music business couldn't give a flying fart about esoteric music and niche markets like Prog because we broke it. Now the artist has to pay for everything, up front and out of their own pocket, the modern equivalent of the record label (Bandcamp, Soundcloud) pays for nothing. What do we get for that? Artist integrity? Think again. Every musician needs to eat 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 13:03
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

....
Spotify is radio on demand, there is nothing magic about it, it is not a public service, it is not about the artist or making money for the artist, it is a business made to make money for its owners. 
...
 
And run by the same conglomerate as any other out there. Even the concept is not progressive!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 13:01
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Most people downloading prog albums do not buy them afterwards. Even so called  "fans" of x band do this, and as a result of this fewer records are sold. ...
 
If this is the case, it is sad indeed, and one reason to kill it. However, I doubt it. The same story existed 40 years ago, and Led Zeppelin and the Rolling Stones, and Beatles and Grateful Dead and Bob Dylan did just fine, thank you!
 
In many ways, this "piracy" thing, is a media scare to intimidate you, and it is engineered by big name lawyer and music groups that don't need the money. And they waste it on these kinds of situations, when in effect, the so called "piracy" and ability to get around "radio" and the printed media is one of the MAJOR REASONS why "progressive music" has come this far.
 
I would hate to see it stop and end up going back to the controlling days of music companies. Remember, ABOVE ALL, that the world's worst business desicions ever made were ... you got it ... better check it out ... they were the rock bands that busted it all into what it is today ... and "piracy" had a lot to do with it.
 
I like to say, that we need to protect our music better, by discussing and listening to it.
 
The buying part is a bit different, as I have never, and still don't, rely on downloads, and some listening here and there. Just about anything I review ... is in my collection on CD or LP. I don't think I have EVER reviewed a download, and I find that reviewers that live off that and review so much stuff, to the point that their view on music is not even a view that I, or you, would EVER consider progressive or worth reading. In most cases, it's like ... mass production!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 12:47
Keeping track of the money I make off music versus what I spend...

In the last year I have spent 10,500$ so far, about to spend another 4,000$ in December, then next year there's probably going to be just as much money spent.

I have made about 150 dollars in sales this year and I lose money every show that I play (that's not factored into my expenses).

Yet I still keep making music. No matter how little people care. I will always keep making music. Till I die and rot.

As long as people like me are around there will still be prog rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 12:41
There's piracy out there (and it's been around for a while), right? There's still prog out there, right? I'm not seeing anything killing off prog so far. Then again, how do you define "killing off"?
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Piracy has been around as long as prog - there have been bootlegs available for years and digital piracy has been around for a while as well and it hasn't killed it off so far. Home taping didn't kill music as far as I remember either.

It doesn't help - I know for a fact that prog bands do lose a lot of sales from people uploading CDs and DVDs but I guess it has to be balanced against the number of people who may buy CDs after hearing an illegal download.
There you go.
Originally posted by Meltdowner Meltdowner wrote:

It's the society that needs to change; I lost count of how many times I heard: "You're stupid. Why do you buy music when you can get it for free?". Even a policeman said that to me once, they should give the example in the first place.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - September 23 2014 at 12:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 12:27
I used to discover artists by downloading albums before buying them: I didn't want to spend money on albums I would never listen again. Tongue
Now I use streaming services for the same purpose.

It's the society that needs to change; I lost count of how many times I heard: "You're stupid. Why do you buy music when you can get it for free?". Even a policeman said that to me once, they should give the example in the first place.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 11:43
Musicians don't need record labels anymore.
Any artist needs to sell enormous amounts of cd's to end up with a profit as their income initially goes back to the record label to pay off their advance.

btw: I once missed a vacation because I didn't have enough money to go as I spent it all on Miles Davis box-sets, I discovered Miles though file sharing.
I discovered the Flower Kings also that way, now I have a not-yet-complete-but-I'm-getting-there cd-collection.
And as every independent study into file sharing shows: people who do a lot of file sharing spend more money on the material they share than people who don't share (those people are not interested).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 11:41
Although these sites are pretty cool for "hobby" musicians.  For those who have day jobs and don't care about making a living off music, these sites allow much wider audiences than ever could have heard from basement Claptons in the old glory days. 

So, if you don't need money from your art, then I think well done Bandcamp type artist pages can generate much artistic satisfaction for the bandmembers as people across the world can hear their music and even review them on websites. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 11:34
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

If Spotify doesn't pay the labels then the labels will withdraw their products from the Spotify catalogue. It is prudent business sense for Spotify to pay the labels. If the label doesn't pay the artist then the artist will.... damn, we're back in the 1970s again. So much for artist liberation.

Spotify is radio on demand, there is nothing magic about it, it is not a public service, it is not about the artist or making money for the artist, it is a business made to make money for its owners. 

The same is true of Bandcamp and Soundcloud, they are not a public service, nor are they about the artist, they are a record label with none of the responsibility and none of the overheads, they are a business made to make money for their owners.




Thank you Dean. It's getting increasingly irritating seeing people continuously heralding these sites as the modern day equivalent of Robin Hood. 
It doesn't take a master degree in economics to spot the obvious - ie It's all business.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 11:28
Not as long as I keep buying hard copies and artists put out good album packages.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 11:22
If Spotify doesn't pay the labels then the labels will withdraw their products from the Spotify catalogue. It is prudent business sense for Spotify to pay the labels. If the label doesn't pay the artist then the artist will.... damn, we're back in the 1970s again. So much for artist liberation.

Spotify is radio on demand, there is nothing magic about it, it is not a public service, it is not about the artist or making money for the artist, it is a business made to make money for its owners. 

The same is true of Bandcamp and Soundcloud, they are not a public service, nor are they about the artist, they are a record label with none of the responsibility and none of the overheads, they are a business made to make money for their owners.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 11:13
Spotify isn't exactly piracy either. We were talking about piracy weren't we?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 11:09
And when I've been played on radio, I've received, generally, $0 in royalty payments. I actually had someone telling me that "PSA is worth sh*t in Belgium".

Sorry to mention it, Unclemeat, you're quoting off the internet - I'm quoting from experience of actually being there. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 11:08
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

But, folks, the problem is now that piracy is the standard, not the exception. ;-)
Not around here it isn't. You have wandered into probably the only music forum on the internet that values the musician as much as the music. Huzzah for that I say.


This is my belief as well, thank ford.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 11:08
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/08/spotify_and_pandora_artist_payments_not_as_exploitative_as_they_re_made.html

In June, David Lowery, singer-guitarist of Cracker and Camper Van Beethoven, posted part of a royalty statement to his blog The Trichordist. Cracker's song "Low," he revealed, had been played 1,159,000 times on Pandora in three months; Lowery, in his capacity as the song’s co-composer, was paid $16.89. For 116,280 plays on Spotify, Lowery got $12.05. Meanwhile, "Low" racked up only 18,797 plays on AM and FM radio stations during the same quarter. But for far fewer spins, Lowery received far more money: $1,373.78, to be exact.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 11:01
Follow your bliss
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 11:00
Originally posted by unclemeat69 unclemeat69 wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Well it's quite obvious. Most people downloading prog albums do not buy them afterwards. Even so called  "fans" of x band do this, and as a result of this fewer records are sold. I mean, this isn't exactly rocket scienceClown
I'm sure (I certainly hope) the bands who have something to say, in an original way, will come out on top. Granted, small teenie tiny acts, that 9 people know of worldwide, who gets their album downloaded, are probably not going to make it financially - unless it sparks a huge public success and people actually start paying money for the music. 
The people who file-share the most also spend the most money on the type of material they share as is shown in numerous studies.
One important reason why there are less cd's/lp's/other physical music containers are being sold is itunes/spotify/similar online services.
The big superstars (Madonna, Lady Gaga, etc) see less revenue because most of their albums suck so people download the singles or other few songs that sound ok, the rest gets ignored.

Music will never die because people wil always make music as we have done for at least 35000 years.
And folks can still earn a living doing music even without selling physical cd's (ad-revenue on spotify, (just keep all your copyrights instead of signing some or all away to some record company).

Be creative and think of a new, working business model for the modern age and use file sharing as a promotional tool.


I'm not sure that's completely right. Either way I was talking about the folks actually downloading the stuff filesharers illegally upload. Anyway, I think a lot of these filesharers upload versions of albums, which are meant for promotional purposes - and promos don't cost sh*t. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 10:59
Well, thank God for that, Dean. Smile
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