The avantgarde's relation to popular music |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Topic: The avantgarde's relation to popular music Posted: April 17 2015 at 12:28 |
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This post is a re-type from memory as the original disappeared into the aether on hitting [post]. I thought the forum up-grade had cured all this losing posts crap but it seems that was a lie. Shame, the first draft was far wittier and much better written than this will be.
This is starting to bear the hallmarks of selecting the data to fit an hypothesis rather than discarding a hypothesis that fails to fit all the available data. As the scope shrinks from Popular Music, to specific subgenres of Popular Music, to subgenres that have associated subcultures, to subcultures that have ideologies, to factions within those subgenres to promote those ideals, to individuals with agendas, (I make no apologies for the crass over-simplification here, this merely serves as an illustration), then the pool of data that fits the ideology becomes more apparent but it is also a convenient method of masking all the data that fails to support the original premise. The Dutch blogger is a fair example of this, in rejecting the poseurs, wannabies and hipsters he is preselecting his sample to what he feels is an authentic representation, except it is only a representation of his idealised view of authenticity. He is creating a sub-sect within the entire Black Metal community that (he assumes) would support his view, and thus heightens his credibility while maintaining the appearance of distanced impartiality. [A sub-sect that probably doesn't exist in reality and in all likelihood, never did]. So now when he subdivides albums (and thus artists) into those that he feels are authentic and those who he believes are not he can validate his notion of Black Metal being everything he wants it to be. Except the greater pile of rejected albums suggests that it isn't. It seems to me that what he is looking for is a romanticised version of what he believes the genre once stood for. As you say - a myth. [In my occasional brushes with the UK Black Metal scene over the years, all of the fans and artists seemed pretty genuine and sincere to me. To date I've yet to hear any "family-friendly" Black Metal ... though much of it is indeed mediocre]. |
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: April 17 2015 at 06:42 | ||||
It's also a train of thought the linked article's author follows much more than I do. Again, I might not have spent enough time clarifying what's his position and what's mine. I think most music subcultures have a vocal minority who are motivated by that kind of avantgarde idealism, but they're usually an even smaller percentage than the article claims and neither as strong an inspiration to the rest... even if they make up a disproportionate amount of the most influential artists. I think there's a kernel of truth or two there but stretched a bit too thin than the evidence can support. Maybe it's because the author is Colombian and I'm Danish? I wager you get a lot more hassle for being in an alternative subculture in his country than in mine. The main writer for that webzine is Dutch and he often expends a considerable amount of page space harping on the gulf between the metal subculture's proclaimed ideals and its actual reality. See the opening paragraphs of that review:
It's clear that despite as you also say yourself that kind of "underground avantgarde" subcultural mythology is for the most part exactly that, myths, it's one that certain people take very seriously. The author of the review I just linked to seems to have found a satisfying compromise in getting extremely enthusiastic about those few artists he finds to actually live up to it, even if my taste doesn't overlap that much with his. Edited by Toaster Mantis - April 17 2015 at 06:44 |
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 17 2015 at 05:29 | ||||
The whole Art Music vs. Popular Music side-track, while interesting and engaging, was an unnecessary and diverting distraction that in an ideal world would never need to happen. With EM and Jazz it is not sufficient to simply throw those two words into the mix because they are such broad categories of music. While we can safely assume that we're obviously not talking about Dixieland or Synth-pop, other subgenres of either EM or Jazz are less obvious and would still be wholly wrong. Electronic Music refers to how the sounds are made, not the style(s) of music that it creates. The early days of Electronic Music occurred entirely in an Art Music context, (it would be tedious to list the various schools and movements of Electronic Art Music here), and since those pioneers of Electronic Music were also using the emerging technology to confront the basic ideas of "what is music" some of them can be regarded as avant-garde. It would be a false assumption to assume that all subsequent Electronic Music developed out of these vanguard explorations into Electronic Music (because it didn't), the technology may have been a result of it, but the adoption of that technology by Popular Music was nothing more than that. The only connection between Electronic Art Music and Electronic Popular Music is the use of synthesis of sound. It would also seem logical and natural that any hybridisation of Electronic Music would occur within it, i.e., between Electronic Art Music and Electronic Popular Music, yet this does not appear to be the case. The two exist independently of each other and in isolation from each other. When crossovers occur (and crossovers differ considerably from hybridisations) they invariably crossover Electronic Popular Music with Classical Art Music and the result can only lean towards Popular Music (just as with any crossover).
The confusion is inevitable because to visualise a prescriptive requires example, the more popular (or infamous) examples are then used as fixed descriptives regardless of how representative they were of the original prescriptive. DuChamp's Fountain being a case in point. Avant-garde originally referred to the artists, not the works of art they created and we refer to it as the avant-garde in the same way as we refer to The Navy or The Army (though without the organisation, discipline and ranking). So avant-garde art and avant-garde music would have been art and music created by avant-garde artists therefore the term avant-garde became an intent, and we use "avant-garde" in all three connotations (often with much confusion). I'm still unconvinced (and thus uncomfortable) by the whole counter-culture/subculture line of argument. Not withstanding that the entire premise rests entirely on there being a genuine connection or relationship between the avant-garde and the subculture which has yet to be demonstrated (similarities in ideology could be perception and/or coincidental), I see no evidence that any individual subculture had a concerted and planned desire towards the goal it arrived at (because that would smack of being Lamarckian). I would also question whether the Metal subculture exists at all beyond dressing alike and liking a particular form of Popular Music. Again, it needs to be more specific and less vague arm-waving.
I'm glad you put collective-consciousness in irony-quotes. But other than that, I would tend to go along with this. |
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: April 16 2015 at 05:00 | ||||
Finally got around to reading the rest of the discussion. It seems like "art music" and "popular music" are different enough music paradigms that any coherent hybridization of either will lean mostly on one of the two, though electronic music and jazz can go either way. On the occasion that someone like Zappa has succeeded in creating the former, it's by making classical or fusion jazz that happened to be influenced by pop/rock.
"Avantgarde" is on a different axis, though. So far it seems like people are confused as whether categorizations of that, and "art" for that matter are descriptions or prescriptions. Probably not exactly helped along by the lasting influence of theorists like Theodor W. Adorno and Walter Benjamin, who explicitly framed avantgarde art as a resistance against the industrialized mass culture. The article I linked to in the opening post follows a similar train of thought framing countercultural music scenes like industrial and metal as those types of avantgardes, though perhaps in a less politicized form than Adorno owing more to the Romantic idealist mythology of the artistic genius leading the way in cultural history's progress. (or perhaps a more honest form of Nietzsche-by-way-of-Marinetti elitism) That ideal described, of course, does represent a very big pair of shoes to fill... more so for "low culture" forms of music. Which the vast majority of prog-and-related falls under, exceptions being things like Frank Zappa's classical compositions or the Zeuhl movement. Not coincidentally, they're also the parts of the scene falling the most away from rock music. Not to mention that it's one that's rarer as an aspirational goal in progressive music than in music scenes with a stronger sense of cultural identity and "collective consciousness".
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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jayem
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 21 2006 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 982 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 16:14 | ||||
I'm OK with that... Congrats for managing an ending ! You have become Andre since last page:
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 12:24 | ||||
Aside from wondering who the hell Andre is, I think this line of enquiry has exhausted itself. It's been fun but anything else I have to say would be a paraphrasing of something I've already said.
I wouldn't dream of guessing such a thing That's a "how long is a piece of string?" type question.
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brainstormer
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 20 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Status: Offline Points: 887 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 11:32 | ||||
Thanks for your endorsement!
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Robert Pearson Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net |
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jayem
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 21 2006 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 982 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 11:27 | ||||
Now... Andre... The words everyone uses were invented by snobs ? Shouldn't we create our own academy in order for knowledge to grow on healthier grounds ?
Hmm...I dare you to guess which part of my stuff took the most effort, and which one was the easier to come to the uploading stage... Unfinished pieces are back in my mind often weeks after the last attempt, and well I'm just excited to have another try (generally with new discovered material) !
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jayem
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 21 2006 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 982 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 11:21 | ||||
I've just discovered your place ! There are some surprizing tracks... http://www.regenerativemusic.net/External_Omni/12_R.S._Pearson_External_Omnipotent_Moments_Procession.mp3 http://www.regenerativemusic.net/RS_Pearson_Live_KMLP_First_Concert/RS_Pearson_Live_KMLP_First_Concert.mp3 |
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brainstormer
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 20 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Status: Offline Points: 887 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 10:24 | ||||
An example of some avant-garde I like, Pietro Grossi / Sergio Maltagliati all in that series so far I've heard/seen have been rewarding. Edited by brainstormer - April 15 2015 at 10:26 |
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Robert Pearson Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net |
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Rednight
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 18 2014 Location: Mar Vista, CA Status: Offline Points: 4807 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 10:16 | ||||
My Dinner With Andre. |
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brainstormer
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 20 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Status: Offline Points: 887 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 10:02 | ||||
"Avant-garde" can be a pretty useless word, IMHO. It has never been synonymous with "irritating music,"
or politically charged, as in transgressive. Debussy and Satie, and many of the other greats of the mainstay classical repetoire were avant garde -- I would define the true avant garde as the greats who were not fully appreciated in their lifetime, irregardless of the marginalization their music causes in the future. This is a way to reclaim the word. |
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Robert Pearson Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net |
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 06:44 | ||||
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 06:40 | ||||
Not really. I mean the words used can cause an emotional response in the non-academic lay-person, not the academic scholar who invented the terminologies. It is the false-logic (fallacy of argument) that any music that is not called "Serious Music" must be non-serious; music that is not called "Erudite Music" is uneducated; and thus, any music that is not called "Art Music" cannot be art or artistic. Those are emotional responses, not musicological responses.
If a piece of music needs that much effort I tend to move on to a new piece, rather than try and fix something that I find unsatisfactory. Edited by Dean - April 15 2015 at 06:41 |
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jayem
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 21 2006 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 982 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 06:20 | ||||
If we focus on common ways we'll say what "everyone" says. If we focus on the way music is offered to people, that is Zappa would say "Common kiddies gather round we're celebrating music together" we'll say Zappa is a popular artist, even if it delivers erudite music to the audience. If we focus on the music, we'll say "erudite music" or "pure art music". PS: I appreciate that you share music (I guess) you enjoy while, er... Sharing, in often risky ways, your uncompromised-looking views. Thanks to your efforts, I've discovered several amazing bands without any hard research.
You're meaning that the french scholar who first pronounced the magic "musique savante" shouted "Ça c'est de la musique savante !" with a trembling voice and tears in his eyes. Meanwhile, the english scholar would say "this is...art music" without the least noticeable emotion (but he'd have to compensate in a pub / brothel afterwards, lest a colo-rectal cancer being diagnosed because of the contained emotional storm inside him). If "savante" refers to intellectual curiosity and sense of structure + control, this word isn't a choice that mediocre..."Musique Sérieuse" or "Grande Musique" sound cheaper, because serious or great/grand doesn't equate to being knowledge-thirsty. Now you may want to have french academicians cry at they lack of emotional control.
I guess the mud you're talking about is the adding of new layers, effects, so that the overall sound loses on quality. I've fallen in this trap though not very often. The most common chores I'm refering to are: Finding better fitting samples for an instrument, esp the drums & bass Cleansing lead/backing lines from unnecessary notes, improving them. Using better EQ tools Trimming a long piece, or adding bars to a short piece for a better structure. Obtain a better dramatic tension into changing instrums Enough is enough: true... Provided it's actually enough !!
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 06:17 | ||||
He did it again to remove [/edit: that part of] Simon's quote entirely.
Edited by Dean - April 15 2015 at 07:03 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 06:13 | ||||
*Note I have quoted Svetonio's post verbatim and in full to make it crystal clear exactly what I am commenting on so to prevent it looking like I have commented after he made any fatuous back-editing of said post. I have "commented out" the videos merely to blank them from the text.
Zappa was a Rock Musician, a Jazz Musician and a Classical Musician. This is accepted fact that NO ONE is questioning. He made Rock albums, Jazz Fusion Albums and he made Classical albums (and crossovers thereof). No one is denying this. He composed contemporary Classical (Art) Music pieces alongside his Rock and improvised Jazz pieces, and (as Glass did with Bowie's Low and Heroes albums), he used themes and melodies from his rock albums to create contemporary Classical (Art) Music pieces. 'Bogus Pomp' is an example of his contemporary Classical (Art) Music - it is not Rock, it is not Popular Music and it is not Jazz. Bozzio's presence on the track, for example, is as a percussionist not as a Rock or Jazz drummer. As a piece of contemporary Classical (Art) Music it is (as the name suggests) it is a satirical piece that reflects Zappa's sense of humour and his perception of music establishment. Therein, the avant-garde element is not wholly irrelevant. Zappa is echoing (copying?) Varèse in that he is using a freedom from composition strictures to construct a piece of music in a seemingly ad hoc manner and to juxtapose contrasting sounding instruments (again, like Varèse). Zappa's "seemingly ad hoc" compositional structure was actually a "collage" technique so the brief "rock" motifs that appear in the piece are referential in the same way that Ives and Copland reference popular pieces of music in their contemporary Classical (Art) Music. What 'Bogus Pomp' is not, is Progressive Rock. So any argument that this validates any claim that Prog Rock is Art Music is doomed to failure. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 05:28 | ||||
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twseel
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 15 2012 Location: abroad Status: Offline Points: 22767 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 05:20 | ||||
Nice job cutting Dean's name from the quote
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: April 15 2015 at 04:48 | ||||
Is this Zappa's track an avantagarde music i.e. Art Music, or popular music i.e. a Rock music with "some influence of avant", but in your opinion? You shouldn't answer if you won't to do it by any reason. Edited by Svetonio - April 15 2015 at 05:36 |
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