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The court of the crimson king
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kenethlevine View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 12 2018 at 11:47
On the local FM station in 1975, my brother guided me into album rock, and he pointed out the title track one day.  I was smitten and it changed my life and taste forever.  yes I had listened to and become a fan of some prog but nothing this epic and intense.
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Points: 12764 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2018 at 11:19
I can only refer back to when I first heard ItCoCK and the time period itself. Hearing '21st Century Schizoid Man' for the first time was revelatory -- overwhelming in a sense. Admittedly, I was only 9 when it was released, so I remember hearing it for the first time perhaps in 1972, but that in no way diminished the song when comparing it to the Yes and Tull albums that were popular at the time. The discordant jazz elements, the squealing sax, the spitfire guitar work, it was incredible. It's one of those compositions that sticks with you through countless musical and life changes, perhaps because it is so different than even most prog music.

When one is referring to the term "prog", '21st Century Schizoid Man', 'Court of the Crimson King' and to a slightly lesser degree 'Epitaph' are indispensable when referring to the burgeoning progressivity of the early 70s. The album may have been released in '69, but it registers as a harbinger of the 70s more than what we are used to including as 1960s-stamped music (I would include Zappa's Hot Rats as an album quite foreign to the time it was released).

Other King Crimson albums may be more consistent, but none have those 3 or 4 songs that eclipse rest of Crimson's discography.
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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

It never surprises me that people seem to have endless opinions/things to say on this record.

Arguably PA's most controversial discussion?

Possibly. But, honestly, I am not sure that folks really get the history side of things, and what has created a lot of music for at least 500 years ... it wasn't just a hit out of the blocks that someone told you was the best album ... there was no such thing then, and music was carried by hum hum hum drum mouth ... until later when it started to become written and such.

As I have stated, ITCOTCK does not make a whole lot of sense, album wise, today, and most folks would ignore it and find it stuffy and every other word about it. But, it was, at the time it came out, just about everything that Sgt Peppers and Their Satanic Majesty's Soup ... would not have or say or do ... it went for the guts and gory and had lyrics for it. An anthem for the ages and all the dictators out there showing up in beautiful colored pictures on TV. An epitaph for many folks that were falling in VietNam and in the IRA conflict and many others around Europe in their own cultural revolution ... that even sparked "krautrock", is usually stated, and and above all ... we say something, and you are not listening ... words don't have meanings anymore, and people look at that song and hate it ... because it is so very true, even more so today. Moonchild deserves a look and discussion, but I think it better remain as is, because it appears to be the child of something else that we do not want to hear about or talk about ... sometimes I think this is about the "free sex" that was then, that got us a baby that many folks did not want, because that took away the fun and party atmosphere of the whole thing ... it's really scary!

No album. today, is so FULL ... unless it is lyrics and more lyrics and music that might accentuate the themes and ideas, but in general, its the same drum beat and the same style and not experimental bits and pieces in the middle that most fans nowadays do not like, or will buy.

Remember, that some of the best pieces of music that are remembered in the past 300 or 400 years, were things that a lot of folks disliked and made fun of. With that said, ITCOTCK is in very good hands ... so let some folks keep trashing it ... you're just making it better and remembered even more!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Frenetic Zetetic View Drop Down
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Points: 9233 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2018 at 02:14
It never surprises me that people seem to have endless opinions/things to say on this record.

Arguably PA's most controversial discussion?

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

I thought the OP was asking for suggestions - records or bands that sound like ITCOTCK.
Good luck with that.

As far as its historical significance, etc. all that's been covered and everyone is correct: It IS the first Prog album. It ISN"T the first Prog album. Both are accurate statements.


Perhaps The Moody Blues? Days of Future Passed?
Because somebodies got pimples about Sgt here I am tend to agree with you.
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Originally posted by grantman grantman wrote:

i first listened to the record 25 years ago then the cassette 20 years ago ,and then the cd 15 years ago and now the remastered version about 7 years ago at least 950 times in my life similar to DARK SIDE OF MOON cannot hear is one track but it,s entirely, same with EMERSON ,LAKE and PALMER first album ,also GENESIS FOXTROT one more YES CLOSE TO THE EDGE not just one track but the complete album.
It´s same to me, I very rare overall listen single tracks, I am album guy, but really haven´t got any reason listen for example Aqualung-song, I very rare listen that album just because I must have listened it at least over hundred times, but anyway always listen the whole album. Not long ago I listened In the Court and it sounded again so great!
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Points: 12609 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2018 at 21:27
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

I thought the OP was asking for suggestions - records or bands that sound like ITCOTCK.
Good luck with that.

As far as its historical significance, etc. all that's been covered and everyone is correct: It IS the first Prog album. It ISN"T the first Prog album. Both are accurate statements.


Perhaps The Moody Blues? Days of Future Passed?
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grantman View Drop Down
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Points: 732 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grantman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2018 at 19:07
i first listened to the record 25 years ago then the cassette 20 years ago ,and then the cd 15 years ago and now the remastered version about 7 years ago at least 950 times in my life similar to DARK SIDE OF MOON cannot hear is one track but it,s entirely, same with EMERSON ,LAKE and PALMER first album ,also GENESIS FOXTROT one more YES CLOSE TO THE EDGE not just one track but the complete album.
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Points: 16460 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2018 at 13:31
I don't think I've heard the album in it's entirety more than 20 times. Do I have catching up to do? Tongue
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Barbu View Drop Down
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Only 950?!?!
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grantman View Drop Down
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Points: 732 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grantman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2018 at 11:21
Remember i did not say it is the best kc album ,just what i find the most listenable ,i must have a least 950 listening s, that i can recount
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Points: 3448 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote miamiscot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2018 at 08:48
I thought the OP was asking for suggestions - records or bands that sound like ITCOTCK.
Good luck with that.

As far as its historical significance, etc. all that's been covered and everyone is correct: It IS the first Prog album. It ISN"T the first Prog album. Both are accurate statements.
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someone_else View Drop Down
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Points: 24019 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2018 at 04:30
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

ah, I found my post about "ITCOTCK". this is what I wrote in it:

"In the Course of the Crimson King" is considered to be the first full-fledged prog album by many people. let me first make it clear that I don't believe such a claim can be made by any album. prog was, like any other musical form, something that gradually developed, and it makes no sense at  all to define a clear point for saying "this is where it all starts".

that being said let's have a closer look at ITCOTCK track by track:

"21st Century Schizoid Man" has all the trademarks  we expect from a prog song, even if it keeps the traditional song structure. there are unusual time signatures and lots of complicated stuff going  on. conclusion: a full-fledged prog song.

"I Talk to the Wind" is most definitely a pop song. a beautiful one with a nice instrumental midsection, but nevertheless a pop song. not prog at all

"Epitaph" really is a tearjerker sung by a crooner, including the funeral march in the middle. the heavy use of mellotron only serves to emphasize the tearjerker qualities of that song. not prog at all.

"Moonchild" can be divided into two parts, a song part and an experimental part that hardly anyone listens to; it is usually skipped (not by me though). what is being  done in the instrumental section is in my opinion trying to express the song lyrics word for word with instruments only, and it succeeds in this regard. this second part is highly prog; the first part however is a simple pop song. verdict: prog, but since the second part is skipped by most people this has to be taken with a grain of salt. the first part is not prog at all.

"In the Court of the Crimson King". this song  has all  the hallmarks of true prog, though it has to be noted that this song still more or less keeps the traditional song structure.

so what do we have in the whole? a pop song, a tearjerker, two prog songs and one half-and-half (which taken as a whole has to be considered fully prog). now decide for yourself: is that enough  to make up a full-fledged prog album?

oh, and so you don't get me wrong: I like the album  very much, and all of it, including "Moonchild". I just don't think it's status as "first full-fledged prog album" is justified. and don't forget the  statement I made in the second sentence of this post.

I am completely aware that this post is extremely heretical, and I fully expect to be subjected to the Spanish inquisition for it Wink

that's my five cents about the album. and no, I don't want to start another discussion; I just want to point out that there can be different opinions about the album. and I really like it; what I don't like is all the myth surrounding it

Nice post and I can agree with its content for at least 90%. Clap
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Sean Trane View Drop Down
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Points: 19695 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2018 at 04:13
seems like an interesting thread, but no more time right now.
Sinfield's text until Lizard are mega interesting... Afterwards, I'm not so positive.

Iiiiii'll be back.
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Points: 26278 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2018 at 02:49
Is this the 'discussing any KC record other than Red or Power To Believe' thread?!
ITCOTKC is important and put forward a template for others to follow. ITWOP is more 'ballsy' which is why I play that more often but creatively it's not on the same planet as the debut. The others are okay in my book but I haven't paid them enough attention to judge. Red is in my top five favourite albums and Power To Believe my second fave KC album.
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I would agree with many posters that ITCOTCK certainly sounds 'of its time' due principally to the Mellotrons, the erstwhile production values and Sinfield's much imitated 'Hippy Gothic' wordplay etc. 21st Century Schizoid Man, Epitaph and the title track are however, pretty much indispensable with regards any Prog pedigree lineage. The remainder, no matter how cute, were never going to be rescued from the pound by this listener. That said, there are contemporaneous albums by the Nice, Arthur Brown, the Doors and Floyd which are also very much date stamped 'state of the art 68/69' but seem to have aged more gracefully. 
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Points: 12609 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2018 at 21:16
^ I don't think, by any bit, that Poseidon is a step up from Court... but not so much because of the immitation thing... but rather because I like every single equivalent better... much better in Court. Actually, the only song I really like on Poseidon is the title one. And about The Devil Triangle... I like better the early live versions of Mars better, too.
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Points: 16460 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2018 at 14:22
Poseidon isn't a step up from Court imo only because it's too much of an imitation. Court is maybe their third or fourth best album behind LTIA, Red and possibly Lizard. I go back and forth as to whether I like Poseidon more or less but it's close. I'll take the devil's triangle over moonchild though. I actually heard the song portion of moonchild (ie the first two minutes)on an independent college station not too long ago. How cool is that? 
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Dellinger View Drop Down
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Points: 12609 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2018 at 13:30
Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Court is my favorite album too, but Red, Lizard, Larks & In the Wake are also really close in greatness, also Islands and Starless & Bible have grown really great to me during the years. I like all the Crimson albums, but after seventies albums still are not even close to the greatness of their seventies albums.


I also think their was something more special about their music in the 70's... by the 80's I feel it got colder and more mechanical.
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LTIA > Starless and Bible Black > Lizard > Deception of the Thrush > ItCotCK > Discipline > ...

ItCoCK is an important album, but it sounds very dated to me. I'm old, but still younger than many here, too young to have experienced it when it was new and fresh. It seems more like a museum piece to me, and I enjoy it in that fashion (museums are wonderful).

BTW, I love the second part of Moon Child. I appreciate noodling more than many on PA.

I can't stand I Talk to the Wind, though. Ugh!




Edited by HackettFan - May 10 2018 at 09:34
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