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Jeffro View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 30 2020 at 07:34
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

The first album by Rush is definately heavy blues rock like Zep, then the band introduced more and more symphonic influences. 2112 track is definately prog metal, and the next two albums were defibately heavy prog with symph influences...

Nope. Impossible since prog metal didn't exist at the time. Proto prog metal maybe(but probably more like heavy prog) but they weren't even the first to do that.

There are people who consider early Rush to be a progenitor of prog metal. Much of Caress of Steel is proto-prog metal to me. 2112(track only) too. Cygnus X-1 as well. Might throw in By Tor and the Snow Dog as well.
 
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

[QUOTE=The Dark Elf]Sometimes Genesis can be proggy. But they throw in a lot of pop tunes. So I can't really equate them as full-blown prog.

Can be proggy? Really? If someone asked me what progressive rock sounded like I would tell them to listen to early Genesis.
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I'm one of those who interpret everything I like as " prog". 🙃
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

The first album by Rush is definately heavy blues rock like Zep, then the band introduced more and more symphonic influences. 2112 track is definately prog metal, and the next two albums were defibately heavy prog with symph influences...

Nope. Impossible since prog metal didn't exist at the time. Proto prog metal maybe(but probably more like heavy prog) but they weren't even the first to do that.
I must say that your posts do give me a chuckle. The subgenres of heavy prog and proto prog were not around in the 70s either. Or the 80s. These genres were assigned well after the fact. The same could have been done for Rush with prog metal.
 
 


Edited by SteveG - January 17 2020 at 03:59
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Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

The first album by Rush is definately heavy blues rock like Zep, then the band introduced more and more symphonic influences. 2112 track is definately prog metal, and the next two albums were defibately heavy prog with symph influences...

Nope. Impossible since prog metal didn't exist at the time. Proto prog metal maybe(but probably more like heavy prog) but they weren't even the first to do that.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 16 2020 at 14:19
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Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

The first album by Rush is definately heavy blues rock like Zep, then the band introduced more and more symphonic influences. 2112 track is definately prog metal, and the next two albums were defibately heavy prog with symph influences...
I posted a thread on PA years ago questioning if 70s Rush was better off labeled as prog metal. You think I drew a mustache on the Mona Lisa. The whole site thought that I was incredulous!

Edited by SteveG - January 16 2020 at 10:32
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The first album by Rush is definately heavy blues rock like Zep, then the band introduced more and more symphonic influences. 2112 track is definately prog metal, and the next two albums were defibately heavy prog with symph influences...
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The original Journey first two or three albums may qualify for this
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Points: 16464 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2020 at 09:42
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

It's perhaps unfortunate that regardless of the original premise of the thread (which I don't pretend to know) the inference will inevitably be drawn that 'Almost Prog but not quite' is qualitative i.e. that if these artists were more compliant with the genre definitions offered on PA, they would be considered Pedigree Prog breed rather than mongrel cross breeds of various other genres. When did we become the Crufts of Music?

Well, I don't really agree with everything on here being prog. Crossover prog seems like a silly label in some ways. Many of the crossover bands seem to be "art rock" to me. If all art rock is really just the same as prog(ie full blown prog) then why even bother with differentiating between the two.

Anyway, some people are taking this a bit too seriously. It's just meant to be a way of discussing the genre and differentiating between what we consider to be prog vs what we feel doesn't what quite make it. It doesn't have to be a science and it really wasn't meant for anyone to express their musical elitism either(that's best left for that other prog site).I mentioned bands who I felt based on my experience with them didn't over all reach the levels of full blown prog. That's it. I'm not a student of music theory and I'm not a professional musician. I feel I know a lot about prog and music in general so I feel qualified to have an opinion on this regardless of what anyone says. However, while I don't mind a friendly discussion in the matter I'm not going to directly respond to trolls(anymore). Ok, carry on. Wink 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 07 2020 at 09:44
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Points: 16464 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2020 at 09:32
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Surely if an album has a song about mythology, sci fi or psychology in an odd time signature then that song makes the album part prog?

You mean like Genesis or Rush? Wink


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 07 2020 at 10:06
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Points: 11415 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2020 at 08:13
It's perhaps unfortunate that regardless of the original premise of the thread (which I don't pretend to know) the inference will inevitably be drawn that 'Almost Prog but not quite' is qualitative i.e. that if these artists were more compliant with the genre definitions offered on PA, they would be considered Pedigree Prog breed rather than mongrel cross breeds of various other genres. When did we become the Crufts of Music?
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Points: 3448 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miamiscot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2020 at 07:54
Is this the old "is this artist Prog?" debate in a new guise?

If so, I submit XTC.
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Points: 3136 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2020 at 00:53
Surely if an album has a song about mythology, sci fi or psychology in an odd time signature then that song makes the album part prog?
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Points: 12764 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 21:27
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

We all know different things. I'm sure I know things about music that you don't know. How about we stop turning this into some sort of prog pissing contest?

I disagreed with many of your statements, and pointed out in detail where you were wrong. It's rather daft to post a thread with the title "Almost prog but not quite", make misstatements about bands based on a lack of musical experience, and then expect folks to just nod their heads. Hilarious.
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to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Points: 16464 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 17:16
If that is the case, and you agree that Genesis is not always "textbook" prog, even when Gabriel was with the band, then I refer you to your previous comment: 


What are you a prosecutor or something? You really like to try to rub people's noses in this stuff don't you? Even if Lamb is an art rock album that is one album from that era. The other stuff from the PG era (not counting the debut)is pure prog. Besides they did pop albums later with PC that were even less prog than lamb. Plus lamb still had it's share of proggy and even prog tracks.

As for Pink Floyd I do consider them prog(including wish you were here). 


I would suggest that perhaps you don't know what you think you know, and that definitions become more fluid when you actually study the music.

We all know different things. I'm sure I know things about music that you don't know. How about we stop turning this into some sort of prog pissing contest?






Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 06 2020 at 17:31
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

By your definition, that is not prog. It is a concept "art rock" album.


Yep. If that's the case then there's nothing wrong with that. It's still a good album.  I never said art rock or non full prog is crap. In fact I like a lot of it. I think a few albums by the Who qualify as concept art rock albums too including Tommy and Quadrophenia which are considered to be two of their best. I'm sure some on here would consider them prog albums though.

If that is the case, and you agree that Genesis is not always "textbook" prog, even when Gabriel was with the band, then I refer you to your previous comment: 

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Genesis had more time changes, variation, experimentation and longer songs with more instrumental passages than those bands. If you want to make a better argument use PF not Genesis. All PF really had were long songs and long instrumental passages and not so much the time changes thing.

Let's talk about an actual prog rock (and not "art rock") album based on your strict assertions. I direct you to Wish You Were Here, with the extended composition "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" in 9 parts split into 2 sections (total run time 26 minutes). Some parts are in 6/8, the vocal sections are in 12/8, the saxophone lead that switches from baritone to tenor sax changes from 6/8 to 12/8, there is a funeral march in 4/4, but some of the bluesier sections are in 3/4.

The other long song on the album "Welcome to the Machine" (7:31) starts in 4/4, changes to 7/4, then to 3/4, back to 7/4 and finishes in 4/4. You'll also notice each of the 5 songs on the album segue one into the other (a characteristic often favored by Genesis).

I would suggest that perhaps you don't know what you think you know, and that definitions become more fluid when you actually study the music.

For instance, did you know the great violinists Yehudi Menhuhin and Stéphane Grappelli were both in studio while Floyd was recording, and Grappelli actually recorded a violin solo for the song "Wish You Were Here"? Grappelli's part was eventually recorded out, but we have tape of it, fortunately:
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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By your definition, that is not prog. It is a concept "art rock" album.


Yep. If that's the case then there's nothing wrong with that. It's still a good album.  I never said art rock or non full prog is crap. In fact I like a lot of it. I think a few albums by the Who qualify as concept art rock albums too including Tommy and Quadrophenia which are considered to be two of their best. I'm sure some on here would consider them prog albums though.
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OK I'm going to start with the artists you mentioned for starters.
The Moody Blues, eh their opening album has some timeless stuff and some quaint stuff which Crimson did not.
Procol Harum eh I really am not acquainted enough to comment on them definitively.
and maybe even post punk. Wikipedia doesn't even list her as prog rock and they often have a looser definition than I do. 
Radiohead here I have to draw the line with you.  Not conventionally prog but I am a big tenter.  Recommended by Steven Wilson or I would not have given them a second thought.

All of the rest, I really dunno.
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You mentioned some great bands and artists BTW.  I just can't embrace the narrow tent.  Still a fun topic for discussion and derision and oh whatever the hell we want to toss into it. heheheheh
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How dare you? heheheheh LOL
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