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Last great albums before the great simplification
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Poll Question: Last gasps only - the last great album?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
2 [3.33%]
6 [10.00%]
5 [8.33%]
16 [26.67%]
0 [0.00%]
2 [3.33%]
17 [28.33%]
0 [0.00%]
12 [20.00%]
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Braka1 View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 29 2020 at 01:09
There is a satisfying symmetry to giving that gong to 'Animals', as it was also marketed and packaged as a response to punk (I won't say it was written as one, since the songs were essentially 18-24 months old by the time it was recorded).

But I'm not voting for it, if only because I haven't had long to think about it. Nor have I read all the responses. First thing that came to mind was that Van Der Graaf didn't give up a lot to punk, other than tapping into its rawness to deliver some of the most crushing live performances of the era.


Edited by Braka1 - May 29 2020 at 01:12

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Originally posted by Squonk19 Squonk19 wrote:

Animals > Red > Going for the One. Genesis's Duke was well into the 'simplification' phase by then. The last gasp was Wind and Wuthering.

I really toyed with putting Wind and Wuthering up instead...in retrospect I should have done.  
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Animals > Red > Going for the One. Genesis's Duke was well into the 'simplification' phase by then. The last gasp was Wind and Wuthering.
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Animals and Going for the One are fantastic and definitely fill the bill.
But if I were to pick one band who rolled up the tent and turned off the light, it would be Jethro Tull with its "folk trilogy", 1977-79.
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:


Soft Machine III...  never was the same.. or as good afterward. Just became yet another generic meandering fusion band which plagued the mid to late 70's...

Ah, a discussion for another day.  Wyatt's book (Different Every Time) is revelatory on this and arguably it was Wyatt's marginalisation and subsequent departure that precipitated the decline after 'Fourth'.  What happened next depends on your taste for jazz fusion but after 'Bundles' (and the reinstatement of a guitar player: Holdsworth then Etheridge) moved them back into prog rock territory, hence the inclusion of 'Softs'.  Afterwards, they famously caught some flak for the disco influenced 'Soft Space', but I like that as much as Can's 'I Want More' and Oldfield's 'Guilty'!
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Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

As far as popular acts go that symbolize the end of the prog scene, i'd agree with ANIMALS.

No, there were some after that imo such as:

Camel -nude (81)
Yes - Drama (80)
Happy the Man- Crafty Hands (78)(their first proper album was in 77)
Rush-Permanent Waves(80), Moving Pictures(81)
UK- same (78), Danger Money(79)
Genesis- Duke(80)(well, it's about half prog anyway)
Kansas - Monolith(79) (about the same as above)

Those are just some of the more well known ones.
 

Camel was past their prime at that point (and I like Stationary Traveler better).

Monolith was the first Kansas album to disappoint. It's definitely a step down when you compare it to what came before.

If we can't include Tull's A (which I wouldn't, and it was meant to be Ian solo), I wouldn't include Duke.
I enjoy Monolith by Kansas I see it as their last classic album. Sure its got some average songs but there's some real good material as well on it. Tongue
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For Genesis I would say the last great album, before the 'simplification' was Wind & Wuthering. It wasn't their last 'great' album, but it was their last full on prog album, complete with epic etc..

I've not heard everything on that list, but I would agree with Animals by Floyd. That was their last true prog album (and great album IMO)

As for Yes, I'm a bit torn. GFTO is more prog than Tormato, but there was a partial return to prog form with Drama, before the first leg of the Rabin era saw them 'simplify' That said, I love 90125.
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Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

As the poll has now 'peaked' some reflections:
3. In 1977, two bands arguably continued to transcend the genre: ELP and Yes (Genesis exited the genre - more or less - with Hackett's departure - another moot point)

I would suggest That Tull's Songs from the Wood (1977) and Heavy Horses (1978) surpassed what ELP (Works and Love Beach) and Yes (Going for the One and Tormato) did in the same time-frame. Your list is incomplete and doesn't do justice to the era.

When considering transcending the genre, during this period I still contend that both ELP and Yes continued to do so (ELP had a UK hit written by a modern classical composer with a modal jazz solo in it...)  I repeat, I am a huge Tull fan but never considered them prog; rather a sophisticated rock band and those albums were brilliant (and yes, surpassed both Tormato and Love Beach if you want to throw those albums into the mix).  I also mentioned that over-populated polls tend to get dissipated - apologies if my little conversation starter appears to lack the substance you crave.
I am wondering how anyone would think Yes or ELP were "transcendent" in 1977 and 1978; if anything, the opposite would be the case. Yes actually devolved from the progressivity of Tales From Topographic Oceans and Relayer to a more stripped down commercial sound on Going for the One. Nothing incredibly "transcendent" there -- it was more, "hey, we have to sell more albums". As far as ELP, there is nothing incredibly progressive or "transcendent" about going back to the old well and rehashing an Aaron Copeland composition. Even the name of the album "Works" is as bloated and pretentious as a double album that would have served the band better edited down to a single record -- but one can't edit egos, it would seem.

As far as Songs from the Wood, again, I am wondering how one wouldn't consider it "progressive" or "transcendent", when you consider that Tull married classical music and English folkloric motifs and made a thoroughly progressive British folk rock album -- a defining moment for the movement itself -- going beyond the folk electrification of previous efforts by Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span. And classical motifs run through out the album as much as folk -- the antithesis of the "simplification" your poll allegedly sought. At least one song on the album leaves the rock genre altogether....
 

Tull's finest hour. 

Forsooth!  I am a Tull fan: Songs From The Wood was the first album I bought by them and thus it has a special place for me and I accept, totally, its complexity and invention.  Tull are also in my top 10 of bands I have seen live- starting with the 'Stormwatch' tour of 1980.  So....until the music press started labelling Tull as 'prog' in the early 2000s, it never occurred to me they were part of the genre (as the label was retrospective anyway).  Old habits die hard.  I always considered 'Under Wraps' as their most 'out there' album anyway (which they got lambasted for).  Anyway...to my mind ELP and Yes were still pushing out the boundaries with those albums but ELP more so.  The live material from the Work tours showed they were still a force to be reckoned with.  'Bloated and pretentious' sounds like something from the high priests of punk...good.
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verslibre View Drop Down
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

As the poll has now 'peaked' some reflections:
3. In 1977, two bands arguably continued to transcend the genre: ELP and Yes (Genesis exited the genre - more or less - with Hackett's departure - another moot point)

I would suggest That Tull's Songs from the Wood (1977) and Heavy Horses (1978) surpassed what ELP (Works and Love Beach) and Yes (Going for the One and Tormato) did in the same time-frame. Your list is incomplete and doesn't do justice to the era.

When considering transcending the genre, during this period I still contend that both ELP and Yes continued to do so (ELP had a UK hit written by a modern classical composer with a modal jazz solo in it...)  I repeat, I am a huge Tull fan but never considered them prog; rather a sophisticated rock band and those albums were brilliant (and yes, surpassed both Tormato and Love Beach if you want to throw those albums into the mix).  I also mentioned that over-populated polls tend to get dissipated - apologies if my little conversation starter appears to lack the substance you crave.
I am wondering how anyone would think Yes or ELP were "transcendent" in 1977 and 1978; if anything, the opposite would be the case. Yes actually devolved from the progressivity of Tales From Topographic Oceans and Relayer to a more stripped down commercial sound on Going for the One. Nothing incredibly "transcendent" there -- it was more, "hey, we have to sell more albums". As far as ELP, there is nothing incredibly progressive or "transcendent" about going back to the old well and rehashing an Aaron Copeland composition. Even the name of the album "Works" is as bloated and pretentious as a double album that would have served the band better edited down to a single record -- but one can't edit egos, it would seem.

As far as Songs from the Wood, again, I am wondering how one wouldn't consider it "progressive" or "transcendent", when you consider that Tull married classical music and English folkloric motifs and made a thoroughly progressive British folk rock album -- a defining moment for the movement itself -- going beyond the folk electrification of previous efforts by Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span. And classical motifs run through out the album as much as folk -- the antithesis of the "simplification" your poll allegedly sought. At least one song on the album leaves the rock genre altogether....
 

Tull's finest hour. 
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Could points by Dark Elf.......
'Songs' not on that list and I love Red but.....I could have easily voted 'Songs'....imho an amazing lp.
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Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

As the poll has now 'peaked' some reflections:
3. In 1977, two bands arguably continued to transcend the genre: ELP and Yes (Genesis exited the genre - more or less - with Hackett's departure - another moot point)

I would suggest That Tull's Songs from the Wood (1977) and Heavy Horses (1978) surpassed what ELP (Works and Love Beach) and Yes (Going for the One and Tormato) did in the same time-frame. Your list is incomplete and doesn't do justice to the era.

When considering transcending the genre, during this period I still contend that both ELP and Yes continued to do so (ELP had a UK hit written by a modern classical composer with a modal jazz solo in it...)  I repeat, I am a huge Tull fan but never considered them prog; rather a sophisticated rock band and those albums were brilliant (and yes, surpassed both Tormato and Love Beach if you want to throw those albums into the mix).  I also mentioned that over-populated polls tend to get dissipated - apologies if my little conversation starter appears to lack the substance you crave.
I am wondering how anyone would think Yes or ELP were "transcendent" in 1977 and 1978; if anything, the opposite would be the case. Yes actually devolved from the progressivity of Tales From Topographic Oceans and Relayer to a more stripped down commercial sound on Going for the One. Nothing incredibly "transcendent" there -- it was more, "hey, we have to sell more albums". As far as ELP, there is nothing incredibly progressive or "transcendent" about going back to the old well and rehashing an Aaron Copeland composition. Even the name of the album "Works" is as bloated and pretentious as a double album that would have served the band better edited down to a single record -- but one can't edit egos, it would seem.

As far as Songs from the Wood, again, I am wondering how one wouldn't consider it "progressive" or "transcendent", when you consider that Tull married classical music and English folkloric motifs and made a thoroughly progressive British folk rock album -- a defining moment for the movement itself -- going beyond the folk electrification of previous efforts by Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span. And classical motifs run through out the album as much as folk -- the antithesis of the "simplification" your poll allegedly sought. At least one song on the album leaves the rock genre altogether....
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I'm not sure about the Tull surpassing what ELP and Yes did is entirely correct (although it is an opinion). The problem is that Tull didn't change a thing during that period and that can be seen as both positive and negative. ELP took a massive risk with Works Vol One and it didn't pay off but at least they tried before attempting (and failing again) to get back in the good books of the president of Atlantic Records with Love Beach. Tull didn't change anything from Songs From The Wood to Stormwatch but at least those albums are listenable, but then why bother when you have Aqualung or TAAB to listen to instead! 

Edited by richardh - May 25 2020 at 07:51
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

As the poll has now 'peaked' some reflections:
3. In 1977, two bands arguably continued to transcend the genre: ELP and Yes (Genesis exited the genre - more or less - with Hackett's departure - another moot point)

I would suggest That Tull's Songs from the Wood (1977) and Heavy Horses (1978) surpassed what ELP (Works and Love Beach) and Yes (Going for the One and Tormato) did in the same time-frame. Your list is incomplete and doesn't do justice to the era.

When considering transcending the genre, during this period I still contend that both ELP and Yes continued to do so (ELP had a UK hit written by a modern classical composer with a modal jazz solo in it...)  I repeat, I am a huge Tull fan but never considered them prog; rather a sophisticated rock band and those albums were brilliant (and yes, surpassed both Tormato and Love Beach if you want to throw those albums into the mix).  I also mentioned that over-populated polls tend to get dissipated - apologies if my little conversation starter appears to lack the substance you crave.
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On a big Henry Cow kick right now, so went with Western Culture, but a number of these are good contenders.

UK certainly belongs here.
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Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

As the poll has now 'peaked' some reflections:
3. In 1977, two bands arguably continued to transcend the genre: ELP and Yes (Genesis exited the genre - more or less - with Hackett's departure - another moot point)

I would suggest That Tull's Songs from the Wood (1977) and Heavy Horses (1978) surpassed what ELP (Works and Love Beach) and Yes (Going for the One and Tormato) did in the same time-frame. Your list is incomplete and doesn't do justice to the era.
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interesting topic.. even more interesting choices.  Truth is many of those had great albums after the choices. That change if one wants to call it.. didn't stop them from making great albums ie KC, Yes, Magma, even Genesis

so going back to one of my many unpopular opinions..

Soft Machine III...  never was the same.. or as good afterward. Just became yet another generic meandering fusion band which plagued the mid to late 70's...


Edited by micky - May 24 2020 at 11:51
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I also chose Red , 'cause..well I like the damn thing.
I also like Nat Health, Yes, ,,,,etc
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I'm Going for the One and Only, Yes. Smile
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As the poll has now 'peaked' some reflections:

1. My interpretation of simplify was to commercialise in line with popular musical culture in the late 70s
2. UK's first album should have been included (I did think about it but at the time, it's impact was limited although I had a massive poster of it)
3. In 1977, two bands arguably continued to transcend the genre: ELP and Yes (Genesis exited the genre - more or less - with Hackett's departure - another moot point)
4. Henry Cow's 'Western Culture' (possibly along with 'Softs') did not compromise at all (note that by then they had been abandoned by their record label, Virgin, in 1977 and their last album was released independently)
5. The timeline is not neat and tidy - the dissolution of King Crimson in 74 presaged what was to come over the next few years.  Someone mentioned 'Drama' but for me the release of 'Western Culture' in 1979 closed the era - possibly along with Hackett's 'Spectral Mornings' (by then, a solo artist so outside this poll...)
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Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Animals as it's the only album on the list that is anywhere near great, and everything Floyd did after it was either awful (The Wall, The Final Cut) to OK (The Division Bell, AMLOR).
 

That's a hardline stance if I've ever seen one. Not a fan of Red, I take it?

No. Not a fan of King Crimson.
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