Genesis: Better without Gabriel?

Firstly, I've got to support the 'Genesis better before Hackett' contingent, Hackett was taken on by the band for his ability to write and perform 'atmospheric' and unique sounding Guitar styles, when he departed, a large chunk of the established Genesis 'sound' that made the band 'stand out' from others at the time, disappeared also.

Secondly, If Collins was such a good singer/songwriter or at the very least, more than a drummer, why didn't he display this while Gabriel was in the band, 'More fool me' is hardly a showcase for his blinding talent, He could have released a debut solo album at the same time as Gabriel and Hackett released theirs if he was that much of a talent, but it didn't happen. Collins was, and possibly still is a brillliant drummer but that's about it. I can listen to any of the 'Brand X' albums he featured on over and over, but 'No Jacket Required'??? you can forget it.

Cesar: I always liked the fabulous speed Mayhew had, of course Phil is better than him as drummer, but in matterof composition and musical ambition Genesis wouldn't have changed too much because Collins cotribution for the best Genesis albums (From Nursery Cryme to The Lamb) is almost 0.

By the way, Mayhew would never been responsible for almost ruining SEBTP withe the most boring and mediocre track from Peter's era, MORE FOOL ME

You couldn't be more wrong IMO. The fact that he could play guitar and bass (pedals) at the same time is one of the biggest factors of the greatness of Genesis. It just adds that "fullness" typical to the Genesis sound. See: The Musical Box.

Being absolutely honest, Cesar is right about Mike's compositions skills were very helpfull for Genesis but let's not remember he's guilty for Your Own Special Way, which IMHO is the starting point of the end of Genesis.

Now lets talk about his style as bassist, it absolutely and totally leaves me cold, he has no soul, and the typicall Genesis sound was created by Steve Hackett & Tony Banks, Mike had nothing to do with that.

Just as the jewel of the crown, Mike's solo career is only better that Phil Collins, what means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote:   Wow, this one is great, Phil Collins was only a drummer, a good one but nothing else, Peter’ Gabriel’s voice and lyrics, Steve Hackett’s unique guitar and Tony Banks compositions is what made Genesis one of the best prog bands (Sorry for Mike but IMO the bassist could have been almost any one).   Trespass IMHO is a much better album than ant post Gabriel album (Yes, for me it’s better than ATOTT, W&W and even than Selling England), and Phil Collins wasn’t there. I heard the drum parts in Trespass and must say that Genesis would not have changed very much without Collins except for his backing vocals.   Iván

I know some people who wolud agree with Iván on that, yet I do´'t quite see the point. John Mayhew's drumming, while not disastrous, is really out of order with all those obsessive rollings that seem to overload some beautiful climaxes in songs such as 'Visions of Angels' or 'Stagnation'. Collins is a hell of a drummer, much better than any of his predecessors in Genesis. His sense of swing, precision, and his jazzy leanings helped Genesis to reinforce the rhythm section in a most energetic way, something that was clearly lacking in their first two albums (compare it to KC's first two albums, for example, that's what I call a fiery rhythm section!!... even in the slow songs...)

I think that there's lots of magic and dense mystery in the Trespass album, but I also believe that the musical work performed and arranged there is very immature. Foxtrot and SEBTP show you how a mature band should sound like: the material is more diversed, and the sense of energy is enhanced, while keeping that special dense magic in most of the acoustic parts. Even a transitional album as Nursery Cryme displays a more accomplished vibe and a cleverer management of contrasts (something very progressive, indeed) than Trespass. Sometimes "very good" is a worse enemy of "excellent" than "very bad": Trespass shows you how an album that should have been excellent, just had to settle down to being very good. Trespass was my first Genesis purchase ever, and all the time I began to get acquainted with all the Genesis stuff, I gained a better perspective of its true artistic value.

Regarding Rutherford's inputs for Genesis, I must remind all my fellow ProgArchives memebers that, despite him not being a genius at playing bass and 12-string guitar, he certainly has written or co-written some of the best stuff of 70s Genesis (White Mountain, The Musical Box, The Cinema Show, Ripples), so his efforts should not be diminished just like that. Among the collection of the most irrelevant Genesis numbers during their post-Havckett phase, there are more compositions by Banks and Collins than by Rutherford.

Regards.

Blacksword wrote: Jim Garten wrote: Blacksword wrote: Velvetclown wrote: Genesis was better without Steve Howe !!!!!!!!!  Steve HOWE?? Perhaps if Howe had replaced Hackett they would have still produced something worth listening to after 1980!! Have you heard GTR?? Yes I have. Point taken. Its a funny old world, when two great musicians can get together and produce such sh!te Hows does it happen?!

Yeah..i heard they kinda suck, but i have to hear them even though i know i'll be severely dissapointed. I  saw the vinyl for 6.99$ the other day: should i get it?

Lunarscape wrote: You know...I have mixed feelings about Gabriel. My opinion is that the Gabriel era was the finest productionwise at Genesis. But lets be honest, leaving Genesis for a solo, huuummm, may I say pop career ? didnt seem quite right. If you look at his overall work; Genesis + Solo I'd say that Gabriel is overrated and mega cultuated. I never cared much for Collins anyway but I'm obliged to listen to his crap since my better half just adores Mr. Collins So to answer the question...No ! Gabriels bigger than Collins what concerns Genesis vocals ! - Did my bad English mislead any of you ! - _________ Lunar

Gabriel leaves for pop career???????? - splutter!!!!! Hardly. With the exception of the (by and large) regrettable So album, nothing Gabriel has done has been pop. His first four solo albums new wave, funk and electronica they're miles away from pop. The fact that they also contain some great hummable melodies doesn't make them bad. And you only have to look at Collins' slavish recreation of Gabriel's sound on 'Face Value' and 'Hello I Must be Going' to see how influential PG was on all of Genesis. Collins was even doing it on the mid-80s Genesis album - Mama being a nod to Rhythm of the Heat etc

After So, Gabriel's Us was a return to form and there are some truly wonderful trackson that especially the gorgeous Washing of the Water. Ok the thing for the Millennium Dome was rather woeful but it did contain Father/Son which is a brilliant song. And Up is a similarly great record - and miles away from pop.

Oh and don't forget the Passion - his awesome soundtrack for The Last Temptation of Christ.

The man has talent to burn and can still cut it when most artists his age are writing music for the Lion King...

You know...I have mixed feelings about Gabriel. My opinion is that the Gabriel era was the finest productionwise at Genesis. But lets be honest, leaving Genesis for a solo, huuummm, may I say pop career ? didnt seem quite right. If you look at his overall work; Genesis + Solo I'd say that Gabriel is overrated and mega cultuated. I never cared much for Collins anyway but I'm obliged to listen to his crap since my better half just adores Mr. Collins

So to answer the question...No ! Gabriels bigger than Collins what concerns Genesis vocals !

- Did my bad English mislead any of you ! -

_________

Lunar  

Did nothing for Yes though.

Velvetclown wrote: Genesis was better without Steve Howe !!!!!!!!!

Steve HOWE?? Perhaps if Howe had replaced Hackett they would have still produced something worth listening to after 1980!!