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oliverstoned View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2005 at 09:05
Yes, but that's not the same suspension system.

Anyway, that's not for nothing that Linn LP12 is a legend.

It's very musical, maybe little less neutral than PT, but VERY musical.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2005 at 09:40

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Yes, but that's not the same suspension system.

Anyway, that's not for nothing that Linn LP12 is a legend.

It's very musical, maybe little less neutral than PT, but VERY musical.

 

Oliver:

It is not a legend.The legendary status was brought on by Dealership & audio press through the years,as Tony pointed out the Ex-Linn salesman has admitted there were not good,i too have heard this from ex-linn trained dealers from Morrgate Acoustics & Audio centre in Sheffield,UK.,it goes like this:Ivor Tiffenburn was an excellent buisness man in respect that he had the ability to grasp the market & dealership in such a way as to sell his deck to every Tom,Dick & harry.Linn products themselves are total rubbish & extremely overated.During the 80's we had a boom in the UK in audio circles called the Cottage industry where many a company appeared with their offering & many of those offering were far better sounding than the Linn,but it was the the influence that killed them & that only.Before the cottage boom there was'nt very much in the way of good turntables in the '70's hence the perfect time for Linn to introduce the 'Sondek'...But can i just point out that The initial design was copied from the Thorens 'TD150' by Hamish Roberton who approached  Castle precision engineering to manufacture components for the  Ariston 'RD11',to cut a long story short there was a lot of falling out & stealing of design approach,Castle though manufactured the shall we say stolen designed components  for the early Linn before manufacturing them,themselves at Floors road,Glasgow later on.BTW:I have an extensivly modified Thorens 'TD150',one of many decks & it floors the Linn hands down,which is not hard.

LINN WERE A CON.THE 'LP12' WAS A CARBON COPY OF THE ARISTON 'RD11'

Believe it.

 

A THORENS 'TD150' IN NEW SURROUND' (STUDY) Introduced in 1960's

ARISTON 'RD11' BEING STRIPPED FOR RE-BUILD

LINN 'SONDECK'LP12...THE INFERIOR COPY.

 

 

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2005 at 11:59

Yeah Barbarian, totally correct.

Before the LP12 there was really only the Garrard 401 idler drive, Audio Technica and Technics direct drives, the Pioneer PL12D (my first deck - cheap but real hi-fi), the Sugden and some ancient Thorens decks. None sounded great. Compared to them, the LP12 did sound good because it had the basic formula of spring suspension and belt drive. However, you can do some amazing things with Thorens decks if you have the engineering skills and they can be vastly improved. A guy in my hall of residence upgraded his Garrard 401 to an LP12 with SME 3009 arm and Shure V15 and I remember thinking that I had to have one because it urinated on my PL12D from a great height

The next real rivals were the Systemdek and the JBE slate (anyone remember that?), a deck whose only real fault was that it was direct drive, not belt. The JBE was the first deck to use heavy, non-resonant materials and was innovative though not as good sounding as the Systemdek, which I bought in 1983(?) after comparing it to an LP12 (the dealer made me!). I still have my Systemdek and it still sounds very good with a Mission 774 arm.

Then came a plethora of nearly great decks - the RD11 being one.

Then, in the 90s came the real super decks, all of which eat the Linn for breakfast. The Wilson Benesch is awesome, the SME 10 wonderful, the Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace and Annalog brilliant and the Roksan Xerxes excellent. Some (the Voyd, the Source and the top SME) I ain't had the pleasure of hearing.

The Mitchell and Oracle decks are also worth a look and have real merit (especially lookswise).

But I chose the PT Anniversary because it suits my taste. That doesn't mean it will suit everyone's but I've had no complaints yet. You pays your money...........!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2005 at 13:51

 

Tony:

I remember the JBE Slate turntable,it was not a good sounding deck at all & that strange alloy patterned platter looked the pants,Slate or marble even Granite is not a good idea for turntable construction,well most i've heard:JBE,Michell 'Marble ref' etc sound poor.

visit the gallery

JBE

 
JA Michell 'Marble ref'
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2005 at 14:08

From a theory point of view, the use of rigid, heavy material like slate isn't a bad idea as it takes resonances above the audible range. However, the idea was probably spoiled by using direct drive on the JBE which is a joke for top end turntables. I haven't heard the Michell marble but I'll take your word for its deficiencies. The poor sound may not be due to the marble (or slate), though; there's plenty of other factors which could turn a good idea into "pants" sound.

Tony

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2005 at 14:47
Actually , the Linn is inspired by the Acoustic research AR, like the others deck you quoted.

The pb with Linn is that it's very delicate:

-It doesn't work with all arms and cartridges: the paradox is that it will not work with an excellent SME V for example.

-It can be put out of order VERY easily, even if you handle it with great care, and it will not work at all!




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2005 at 14:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2005 at 17:59

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Actually , the Linn is inspired by the Acoustic research AR, like the others deck you quoted.

The pb with Linn is that it's very delicate:

-It doesn't work with all arms and cartridges: the paradox is that it will not work with an excellent SME V for example.

-It can be put out of order VERY easily, even if you handle it with great care, and it will not work at all!




The Linn was'nt inspired by the AR-XA or anything.I've explained that the Linn was a copy not an inspiration.

The problem with Linn is it's crap.I don't know what you mean about delicate...The whole reason for a suspended sub chassis is to isolate the ARM/Bearing from outside vibrations,with the motor being mounted on the top plate isolated from that too,but you still go on about isolating the deck etc...Oliver it's all old hat & very out of date boring deck.The Thorens 'TD150' is exactly the same principle as the Linn but not have no overblown crap theories about setting one of those up.Don't you see it's all part of the old Linn marketing sh*t.By the way your not suppose to touch a Linn not mix any other companies arm,a dealer is suppose to do a regular set up service by Linn law,Did'nt you know about that?Yes it is bollox as is the deck.Get real olly

You'll be a good one if you can fit a SME on a latish Linn as it's impossible without choppingaway the corner brace at the back of the armboard as it fouls a SME mounted.

Oliver my friend i'm no longer playing tennis with your silly mumbo jumbo



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2005 at 03:09
I was a copy of Acoustic research deck, but with much more precise fabrication.

Obviously, you have never heard a well fitted Linn.
I listen to it daily and that's real great
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2005 at 08:08
I suppose you also consider Rega planar 3 as a crap among budget deck?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2005 at 15:49

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

I suppose you also consider Rega planar 3 as a crap among budget deck?

 

I consider a Rega a toy.The Engineering is absolutly appauling

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2005 at 16:37
A toy because of its simplicity?


Only musicality matters, and its very musical.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2005 at 19:45

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

A toy because of its simplicity?


Only musicality matters, and its very musical.

About as musical as a box of bog rolls.

I bought this crap Frog micromega CD player today that sounds better than a Rega

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2005 at 03:08
ke9 the barbarian

Pfff!

You have never heard a well fitted rega 3 as you have never heard a good Linn;

If what you heard worked less well than a Micromega CD, i understand this was a crappy Rega with a crappy cartridge!

I've heard a Rega 3 with its RB300 arm and a Linn Karma moving coil cartridge on a big system, and it worked wonderfully. (with 2 Jolida 1000 in the highs, F18 Musical Fidelity 600 W power amp in the low, very big Infinity speakers, etc...).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2005 at 16:08
What fool are you to prefere our bad little Micromega cd players over your excellent budget Rega turntables?

Obviously, you don't know what you're talking about.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2005 at 17:06
Regas suffer from basically the same faults as the LP12; they are rather coloured and not very transparent but they do sound quite lively and dynamic (what Linn refer to as "musical - actually anything but). The difference is price; I can tolerate these faults in a budget deck like a Rega but not in an expensive deck like an LP12. And since you can't put the best arm in the world on a LInn (the SME V of course) that seals its fate. I have seen a V on a Rega (and it worked) but the RB 300 is a better bet because the performance of the V is masked by the faults of the Rega. Oh, and because Regas are simple, I've never heard of one going wrong. But compare one to a PT Tarantella or a Nottingham Analogue Space Deck and you'll soon hear what you're missing!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2005 at 03:03
I know a rega 3 is less good than a PT, but it's not the same budget.
And no, Rega 3 is not coloured at all.
It's neutral and musical.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2005 at 01:35
"I have seen a V on a Rega (and it worked) but the RB 300 is a better bet because the performance of the V is masked by the faults of the Rega"

So you admit a Rega3 with a SME V arm works (and i'st disproportionnal btw).
And no, such an arm can't compensate, IT REVEALS!
So: you put an excellent arm on this little budget turntable;
You put the excellent Linn Karma moving coil cartridge on it in a big system and it works wonderfully.
What do you conclude?
That Rega 3 is excellent!!!

And telling that you prefer a bad little CD like our french Micromega CD or the bad chinese Shangling over your good little musical british players such as Nad, Rotel, Rega, Creek, Naim is already a bad joke, but prefer those bad Cd over a Rega Planar 3 is really pathetic.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2005 at 05:21

Er, you're having a go at the wrong person, mate! I don't like Micromega CD players AT ALL! And Shangling? Never heard one.

When I said an SME V on a Rega "worked", it meant that there were no significant problems with the use of the arm. What it showed was that the SME did not sound appreciably better than the Rega RB300 on a Planar 3. Whilst accepting that the RB300 is an excellent BUDGET arm, on a revealing deck the SME V wipes the floor with it (and any other arm, for that matter). On the Planar 3, it didn't. This is because the Rega is somewhat coloured and not as transparent as top flight decks.

That doesn't mean it's crap. It means it's excellent at the price. But that price is cheapish.

And the Linn Karma "excellent"? Coloured as hell! Unrevealing! My old Ortofon F15 E was more transparent and my old Elite MCP 555 made it sound like a 50s gramophone (until my son pulled the stylus off). I owned a full Linn system, Oliver. I was relieved when I managed to sell it, too, because it performed way below what my father paid for it. He believed Linn's  (and the dealer's) hype and regretted it when he had owned it a few months.

You are obviously young, Oliver. Firstly, you resort to insults when people disagree with you. Secondly, you can't admit you're wrong on anything. And finally, I am beginning to question whether you've actually heard a lot of the stuff you talk about, because if you had, you wouldn't make such bombastic and misinformed comments about it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2005 at 07:51

"Er, you're having a go at the wrong person, mate! I don't like Micromega CD players AT ALL! And Shangling? Never heard one."

Sorry i confuse you with KE9 and his multiple identities.

"And the Linn Karma "excellent"? Coloured as hell!"

Completely false!!!!
That was your system which was bad!

" On the Planar 3, it didn't. This is because the Rega is somewhat coloured and not as transparent as top flight decks."
Not transparent as 5, 10 or 20X more expensive decks...
That's so obvious that you don't need to tell it.
And no, again, that's not coloured at all.
It has its limitations in bandwith, dynamic, but it's NEUTRAL.
But to judge it, or any other device btw, you have to have a full neutral, transparent and musical system.
The smallest "details" are important.
You admit you don't use good cables, you don't use separate power electric lines, good power cables, power filters, vib cancellers , so how can you judge something whith such a low level of transparency?


"I owned a full Linn system, Oliver. I was relieved when I managed to sell it, too, because it performed way below what my father paid for it."


Agree.
This is VERY expensive for what is.
You can do much better for half or third of the price.



"Firstly, you resort to insults when people disagree with you."
Don't confuse me with ke9, i've never insult anybody.

"Secondly, you can't admit you're wrong on anything"

False.
I first said PT was bad, but get info and finally admit it's good.
Just read again this thread and you'll see.

"I am beginning to question whether you've actually heard a lot of the stuff you talk about, because if you had, you wouldn't make such bombastic and misinformed comments about it."

All is said about rega p3 and Linn is because i've heard it many times,( i listen to a LP12 on my best friend's system several hours per day )and that's why i can't let you said "such bombastic and misinformed comments about it.".
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