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Ghandi 2 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2006 at 21:20
That was my review, and yes, he is pertially tone-deaf, and no, it was not intended as an insult. People are perfectly capable of writing and performing music even if they have that handicap; it's just more difficult to tell if you are singing or playing out of tune. In fact, it is more impressive that he managed to write such great music with Gilmour and Wright even with such a handicap.
 
Before the days of automatic tuners, Waters would stick the neck of his bass over Wright's keyboards and Wright would tune it for him because apparently it really bothered Wright when Waters would play out of tune and not even really know it. Unfortunately, I can't find that particular interview. I know this can be a difficult thing for Waters fans to accept, but it's true. Here is another place that says he is tone-deaf (I know that it's not the most reliable of sources)
 
BTW, if you couldn't tell, I am a huge pre-Wall Floyd fan, so you really shouldn't take any of this as an insult.


Edited by Ghandi 2 - June 19 2006 at 21:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2006 at 21:56
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:

I remeber reading in one of Pink Floyd's biography's, it mentions that Waters was tone deaf; Rick Wright(he played guitar for a bit originally) had to tune his bass for him, but Waters did overcome it.


He could probably cope with electronic guitar tuners, which tell you when you've tuned the string to the right note..
     
 
Yeah but he obviously preferred Rick Wright to the tuners



  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 11:25
Originally posted by Ghandi 2 Ghandi 2 wrote:

That was my review, and yes, he is pertially tone-deaf, and no, it was not intended as an insult. People are perfectly capable of writing and performing music even if they have that handicap; it's just more difficult to tell if you are singing or playing out of tune. In fact, it is more impressive that he managed to write such great music with Gilmour and Wright even with such a handicap.
 
Before the days of automatic tuners, Waters would stick the neck of his bass over Wright's keyboards and Wright would tune it for him because apparently it really bothered Wright when Waters would play out of tune and not even really know it. Unfortunately, I can't find that particular interview. I know this can be a difficult thing for Waters fans to accept, but it's true. Here is another place that says he is tone-deaf (I know that it's not the most reliable of sources)
 
BTW, if you couldn't tell, I am a huge pre-Wall Floyd fan, so you really shouldn't take any of this as an insult.


So that is now 2 internet sites claiming he is tone deaf, but neither are definitive proof. At the moment it would appear to be uncorroborated by fact, an uninformed opinion unless someone can come up with an authoritative source. We can't believe everything we read on the internet .....Wink

EDIT: I am not offended by any of this. I just like hate to see opinions/hearsay/gossip/rumours etc passed off as fact and then become set in stone. If we can get some real proof then fine.


Edited by Joolz - June 20 2006 at 11:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 11:55
^ Yeah, I'm still holding out for definitive evidence as well...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 22:58
Here is the interview in which Rick says:
"The only time I'd ever get mad at Roger on stage was when he'd be playing out of tune; we'd be in D and he was still banging away in E because he couldn't hear it. I had to tune his bass on-stage, you know. In those days there were no strobe tuners, so after every number he'd stick the head of the bass guitar over my keyboards and I'd tune it for him."
 
And here is a picture of Rick tuning Roger's bass. That's about the best I can; I'm afraid that I can't really offer any absolute definate proof since Roger has never confirmed or denied it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 01:40
Here's what Wikipedia says about tone deafness:
 
A person who is tone deaf lacks relative pitch, the ability to discriminate between notes. Thus one who is tone deaf is unable to accurately discriminate between musical notes and is thus also incapable of reproducing them. However, the particular quality of being tone deaf is descriptive of having difficulty or being unable to correctly hear relative differences between notes, while in common usage it refers to a person's inability to reproduce them accurately. The latter inability is most often caused by lack of musical training or education and not actual tone deafness.

The ability of relative pitch, as with other musical abilities, appears to be inherent in healthy functional humans. The hearing impairment appears to be genetically influenced, though it can also result from brain damage. While someone who is unable to reproduce pitches because of a lack of musical training would not be considered tone deaf in a medical sense, the term might still be used to describe them casually. Someone who cannot reproduce pitches accurately, because of lack of training or tone deafness, is said to be unable to "carry a tune." Tone deafness affects ability to hear pitch changes produced by a musical instrument and/or the human voice. However, tone deaf people seem to be only disabled when it comes to music, and they can fully interpret the prosody or intonation of human speech. It has been observed that in societies with tonal languages such as Cantonese and Vietnamese, there are almost no tone deaf people.

Tone deaf people often lack a sense of musical aesthetics, and much like a color blind person would not be apt to appreciate colorful visual art, some tone deaf people cannot appreciate music. Tone deafness is also associated with other musical-specific impairments such as inability to keep time with music (the lack of rhythm), or the inability to remember or even recognize a song. These disabilities can appear separately but some research shows that they are more likely to appear in tone deaf people.

COMMENT:
I've played guitar for years now, and I've always used electronic tuners. It's not that I can't tell when the thing is out of tune, it's that I have a hard time pinning down the range of a certain note, say 'E'. It's hard for me to tell when it's "too flat" or "too sharp". I could never tune it "on the fly" during a performance (like Rick Wright).Shocked Sometimes it's easier to operate in "open" tunings for me. I don't think it matters if Waters is "tone deaf", he probably knows more chords than I do! Big smile


Edited by necromancing777 - June 22 2006 at 01:41

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 21:50
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by jj1414 jj1414 wrote:

Originally posted by Moribund Moribund wrote:

Ermmmm
A review of Wish you Were Here posted earlier today makes a claim that reads "as Roger Waters is tone deaf...".

Is this just a nasty opinion or is there any truth in it (documented)? Personally, as a music teacher,I don't believe in ToneDeafNess, only lack of confidence in formative years. Anyone else out there know more about Rog's alleged deficiency?

 

I think that's a ridiculous thing to say!


Bearing in mind definitions of 'tone deaf' have you looked at the evidence??
    
 
What evidence? He sounds great to me, if he were "tone deaf" wouldn't he sound terrible? Yeeeees! but he doesn't.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 22:36
^ Exactly. I have a whole catalog's worth of Pink Floyd and solo albums in which Roger's singing sounds perfectly in tune to me. And the bulk of this material was created before the technology existed to intelligently correct pitch with electronic devices or software algorithms. I think it's pretty clear that Roger had very little musical training, and I feel like this is a thinly veiled dig at him because of that.

What I find more likely is that Roger couldn't be bothered to learn how to tune his bass properly, and let Rick deal with it because it bothered Rick.


Edited by Empathy - June 22 2006 at 22:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 22:52
Originally posted by jj1414 jj1414 wrote:

What evidence? He sounds great to me, if he were "tone deaf" wouldn't he sound terrible? Yeeeees! but he doesn't.
 
Yep, sounds great to me too!
 
Now, wait a minute, I am tone deaf!
 
Originally posted by Empathy Empathy wrote:

What I find more likely is that Roger couldn't be bothered to learn how to tune his bass properly, and let Rick deal with it because it bothered Rick.
 
I couldn't have said it better myself! LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 23:17
I don't know about this one. After I read this review I was shocked too, but his singing seemed in-tune most of the time. I guess the "they did a billion takes til' he got the vocals right" explanation could work, but i don't know.
 
On the other hand his singing at Live 8 was just terrible. I loved the performance but he just wrecked comfortably numb for me.
 
I guess you'd have to ask david or nick
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 07:34
Originally posted by jj1414 jj1414 wrote:

 
What evidence? He sounds great to me, if he were "tone deaf" wouldn't he sound terrible? Yeeeees! but he doesn't.


Agreed, and not forgetting all the wonderful music he has created over the years. Not sure if a (partially) tone deaf person could have achieved what he has done.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 08:00
Originally posted by jj1414 jj1414 wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by jj1414 jj1414 wrote:

Originally posted by Moribund Moribund wrote:

Ermmmm
A review of Wish you Were Here posted earlier today makes a claim that reads "as Roger Waters is tone deaf...".

Is this just a nasty opinion or is there any truth in it (documented)? Personally, as a music teacher,I don't believe in ToneDeafNess, only lack of confidence in formative years. Anyone else out there know more about Rog's alleged deficiency?

 

I think that's a ridiculous thing to say!
Bearing in mind definitions of 'tone deaf' have you looked at the evidence??     

 

What evidence? He sounds great to me, if he were "tone deaf" wouldn't he sound terrible? Yeeeees! but he doesn't.


The evidence that's been posted in links throughout this thread..
     
I think he sounds great too, and as the Wikidipedia quote (I think) states, it is possible to play music perfectly well AND be tone deaf. This is the whole point of this discussion; the fact that tone deafness DOES NOT always equate to a lack of musical talent, which is the generally held misconception about tone deafness. I must admit, before reading up on this, I assumed that someone who was tone deaf wouldn't have any interest in music at all. I was wrong about that.

As for all the Floyd albums being evidence that Waters is not tone deaf, once again, as discussed here, his guitar was tuned for him and he had electronic means of keeping to the right notes while singing; an ear piece or whatever.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 10:04
My Dad (RIP) was a fellow of a London music college and a music teacher and he reckoned that some people called themselves, or allowed themselves to be called, tone deaf when really it was just the case that they weren't trying hard enough or couldn't be bothered - sounds a bit harsh maybe but I think he was trying to say that people sometimes use it as an excuse not to try - "he sings flat, so must be tone deaf so therefore no musical ability etc...." I mean, some of Roger Water's singing (like "goodbye cruel world" on The Wall) is just plain bad/flat, but that doesn't mean he's tone deaf. Note what Wilkepdia says - the inability to reproduce musical notes may be more to do with lack of training than truly being "tone deaf".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 10:25
Originally posted by Phil Phil wrote:

My Dad (RIP) was a fellow of a London music college and a music teacher and he reckoned that some people called themselves, or allowed themselves to be called, tone deaf when really it was just the case that they weren't trying hard enough or couldn't be bothered - sounds a bit harsh maybe but I think he was trying to say that people sometimes use it as an excuse not to try - "he sings flat, so must be tone deaf so therefore no musical ability etc...." I mean, some of Roger Water's singing (like "goodbye cruel world" on The Wall) is just plain bad/flat, but that doesn't mean he's tone deaf. Note what Wilkepdia says - the inability to reproduce musical notes may be more to do with lack of training than truly being "tone deaf".


..and I think his terrible singing on 'Goodbye Cruel' world was partly deliberate to emphasise the characters lousy state of mind..
     
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 10:39
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by Phil Phil wrote:

My Dad (RIP) was a fellow of a London music college and a music teacher and he reckoned that some people called themselves, or allowed themselves to be called, tone deaf when really it was just the case that they weren't trying hard enough or couldn't be bothered - sounds a bit harsh maybe but I think he was trying to say that people sometimes use it as an excuse not to try - "he sings flat, so must be tone deaf so therefore no musical ability etc...." I mean, some of Roger Water's singing (like "goodbye cruel world" on The Wall) is just plain bad/flat, but that doesn't mean he's tone deaf. Note what Wilkepdia says - the inability to reproduce musical notes may be more to do with lack of training than truly being "tone deaf".


..and I think his terrible singing on 'Goodbye Cruel' world was partly deliberate to emphasise the characters lousy state of mind..
     
....it's certainly a piece of singing that makes one wonder if there's any point in carrying on.....Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 10:44
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:



..and I think his terrible singing on 'Goodbye Cruel' world was partly deliberate to emphasise the characters lousy state of mind..
     


I always found that to be fairly obvious, myself...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 10:48
Originally posted by Empathy Empathy wrote:


Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:


..and I think his terrible singing on 'Goodbye Cruel' world was
partly deliberate to emphasise the characters lousy state of mind..
     


I always found that to be fairly obvious, myself...


Yes, it is obvious I agree.
    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 11:05
Speaking as a bass player and guitarist (of sorts), I must admit I find it hard to tune a guitar by ear, whereas I have a friend who could tell you exactly which string is out of tune and whether it's sharp or flat if you played him a whole chord. I would have to use a tuner to get a guitar in tune for a concert, but I wouldn't describe myself as "tone deaf".
Mind you, there are some who would disagree with that.Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 12:44
I don't know about tone deaf, but I do know that as great a songwriter as Waters is, he is a lousy singer. Throughout the PF catalog, he often bends the notes flat. Now, from a performance aspect, he makes up for this by usually giving very impassioned vocal performances which shift the focus from the note to the emotion that he is trying to convey. A bit of tone deafness would explain this, but if thats not the case, then he just plain can't hit the notes a lot of the time.

P.S. As far as not being able to tune his bass, lemme just say this: I bought my first bass guitar at age 12, and not having an electric tuner for a few months, I would just use my mom's piano to tune the strings by ear, and never had a problem with it. So, my point is, if Waters went an entire career without being able to correctly tune his main instrument and tone deafness wasn't the reason...well that's just plain pathetic.


Edited by Nipsey88 - June 23 2006 at 12:48


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