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Strangers passing in the street by chance two separate glances meet and I am you and what I see is me. And do I take you by the hand and lead you through the land and help me understand the best I can
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19705
Posted: October 26 2006 at 11:13
TheProgtologist wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
[QUOTE=TheProgtologist]
I think they were added in the JR/F category because to put them in prog related would have required approval of the Admin Team. [
/QUOTE]
Not quite Jody!! This was discussed with Dick Heath, Zac M and in person (in Canterbury) with Alucard.
I really believe Santana to be jazz rock (and his solo craeer even more), but I agree that Prog-related was an option.
Also if you remember, I was also hesitating with prog folk for a while because of the ethnic music being considered folk music.
another thing is that Santana won the voting poll in the collab section around one year ago.
That's cool.
I am not against their inclusion,I just don't think they are in the proper genre.
But I will defer to the experts on this one,because I am only familiar with early Santana.
Jody, listen to either Caravanserai or Borboletta from Santana
or
Love Devotion Surrender or Illuminations from his solo career,
If you don't think it's full blown jazz-rock I will reimburse your money
Satisfaction garanteed or reimboursement garanteed
let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Posted: October 26 2006 at 11:25
Sean Trane wrote:
TheProgtologist wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
[QUOTE=TheProgtologist]
I think they were added in the JR/F category because to put them in prog related would have required approval of the Admin Team. [
/QUOTE]
Not quite Jody!! This was discussed with Dick Heath, Zac M and in person (in Canterbury) with Alucard.
I really believe Santana to be jazz rock (and his solo craeer even more), but I agree that Prog-related was an option.
Also if you remember, I was also hesitating with prog folk for a while because of the ethnic music being considered folk music.
another thing is that Santana won the voting poll in the collab section around one year ago.
That's cool.
I am not against their inclusion,I just don't think they are in the proper genre.
But I will defer to the experts on this one,because I am only familiar with early Santana.
Jody, listen to either Caravanserai or Borboletta from Santana
or
Love Devotion Surrender or Illuminations from his solo career,
If you don't think it's full blown jazz-rock I will reimburse your money
Satisfaction garanteed or reimboursement garanteed
Sean Caravanserai is a one in a kind album in Santana's career and Borboletta is probably his weakest work before Supernatural.
His main job is in the Psyche and his free Jamming style is legendary, lets see:
Started before 1969
Has Prog elements but noit totally defined
His roots are in Psychedelia and Latin music (Latin much more than Jazz).
This sounds as a text book case of PROTO PROG or PSYCHEDELIA.
Any of the two sould fit as a glove.
BTW: Love Devotion Surrender is 100% Mc Laughlin material for which Santana was required due to their friendship and his career crossed several stages, but if Santana is here is because his early career, lets focus in that.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 26 2006 at 11:29
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12803
Posted: October 26 2006 at 11:33
At least one UK jazz magazine which does favour jazzrock fusion, i.e. Jazzwise, was all of a twitter when Welcome and Caravanserai eventually appeared on Sony Columbia's prelease sheets a few years ago. Anybody not hearing the jazz rock coming from the proven jazz rock session men on Swing Of Delights with C.Sanatana's jazz rock/latin guitar, then we have problems. Chick Corea and RTF (the older line-ups and the new) can be more Latin than Santana. Perhaps the Latin jazz rock can now spread to include Kip Hanrahan, and the various projects heard on the American Clave record label - inlcuding some fine vocals by Jack Bruce, and a special treat of Steve Swallow and Jack Bruce doing an electric bass duo.
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19705
Posted: October 26 2006 at 11:55
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sean Caravanserai is a one in a kind album in Santana's career and Borboletta is probably his weakest work >>>>> Have you listened to this album? It is the twin of Caravanserai, albeit not quite as perfect
before Supernatural >> I personally loathe Supernatural. >> this album is responsible for most people saying the group is not prog
BTW: Love Devotion Surrender is 100% Mc Laughlin material for which Santana was required due to their friendship and his career crossed several stages, but if Santana is here is because his early career, lets focus in that. >> I knew this was coming up. I have never seen this album in the stores in the McLaughlin section >> Always stocked with Santana and it was released on Columbia (solo McLaughlin was not but the MO group was also on Colubia) and half the players are from his band (Shrieve, Rauch and Peraza).
If Mc Laughlin gets three credits two of them are really Coltrane derivations. If McLaughlin had Coiltrane as an influence, iyt was nothing compared to Santana who will go out of his way to propopse a collaboration with Alice Coltrane (John's Widow) in the equally superb Illuminations
I think it is quite interesting to see how latin american see him though. Quite different from the North American and Europeans apparently
let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Posted: October 26 2006 at 12:52
Great, another multicolor thread Iván in blue:
Sean Trane wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sean Caravanserai is a one in a kind album in Santana's career and Borboletta is probably his weakest work >>>>> Have you listened to this album? It is the twin of Caravanserai, albeit not quite as perfect
As a fact I have each and every piece of music released by Santana, even a rare Peruvian album called SANTANA & BARRABAS being the second an unknown band (Peruvian if i'm not wrong) inspired in Carlos that got the permit for the band to play one side of each one.
Borboletta is full of early spacey sounds, it was an attempt to be the logical sequence of Caravanserai but by far lress succesful and of inferuior quality.
before Supernatural >> I personally loathe Supernatural. >> this album is responsible for most people saying the group is not prog
Honestly not bad, but totally Pop oriented, he worked it with a Maná member if I'm not wrong, he added his solo to different melodies, but again it's not a bad album.
BTW: Love Devotion Surrender is 100% Mc Laughlin material for which Santana was required due to their friendship and his career crossed several stages, but if Santana is here is because his early career, lets focus in that. >> I knew this was coming up. I have never seen this album in the stores in the McLaughlin section >> Always stocked with Santana and it was released on Columbia (solo McLaughlin was not but the MO group was also on Colubia) and half the players are from his band (Shrieve, Rauch and Peraza).
Carlos was always a faithful Catholic, he's devote of La Virgen de Guadalupe but he had a crisis during those years apparently due to drug use so McLaughlin introduced him to the oriental meditation and this kind of sounds, but it's mostly a John work with Carlos arrangements.
John made the music and Carlos added all the solos, some of them from older songs, but he soon abandoned oriental philosophies and returned to his Mexican roots.
If Mc Laughlin gets three credits two of them are really Coltrane derivations. If McLaughlin had Coiltrane as an influence, iyt was nothing compared to Santana who will go out of his way to propopse a collaboration with Alice Coltrane (John's Widow) in the equally superb Illuminations
Santana got influences from almost everybody, but he's a human blender capable of keeping alive his own sound which is not present in LD&S or Illuminations
I think it is quite interesting to see how latin american see him though. Quite different from the North American and Europeans apparently
That's because we're more familiar with Latin music, we know at a first glance the difference between saloon Salsa and Latin Jazz which are veruy hard to understand by non Latins.
Santana's music had a Psyche structure but he added Cuban-Mexican sounds blending Salsa (Hey, Tito Puente was Chepito Areas god and Chepito was Carlos right hand responsible of the rhythm section, he played Puente songs), Cuban Son and I even heard Carlos playing La Flor de la Canela from Chabuca Granda (Peruvian Criollo).
He was never a Jazz performer, British and American markets have to translate what is out of their understanding to terms easy to get by their audience, Latin Jazz is the easiest term to get by a public who don't have an idea about the differences existing between Mambo, Merengue, Salsa, Candombe, Son, etc....so they just say Latin Jazz, and avoid further questions.
If you want to listen real Latin Jazz, try "BUSCANDO AMERICA" (The song) by "el maestro" Rubén Blades.
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Posted: October 26 2006 at 14:32
Eetu Pellonpää wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
This sounds as a text book case of PROTO PROG or PSYCHEDELIA.
I personally won't accept them to psych genre.
That's your choice, but honestly Santana is one of the main icons of San Francisco Psychedelia, that's a fact that can't be denied, probably your approach to Psychedelia is different but history doesn't lie.
Sean for example is not ready to accept some forms of Country music into Folk sub-genre and his approach is valid as yours.
But
Santana is the primary exponent of Latin-tinged rock, particularly due to its combination of Latin percussion (congas, timbales, etc.) with bandleader Carlos Santana's distinctive, high-pitched lead guitar playing. The group was the last major act to emerge from the psychedelic San Francisco music scene of the 1960s and it enjoyed massive success at the end of the decade and into the early '70s.
An influential rock style emerged during the mid-to-late 1960s in San Francisco, California. Sometimes called psychedelic rock, this form of rock was closely associated with the use of hallucinogenic drugs, such as Lysergic Acid Diethylamide (LSD); psychedelic art and light shows; and an emphasis on spontaneity and communitarian values, epitomized by free-form events known as be-ins. The San Francisco scene reached its high point with the so-called Summer of Love in 1967, when thousands of young people—often referred to at the time as hippies—flocked to the city to experience the culture.
Perhaps the most representative group of musicians to come out of San Francisco during this period was the Grateful Dead featuring vocalist and lead guitarist Jerry Garcia. The Dead experimented with long, improvised stretches of music called jams.Despite the antiestablishment orientation of the youth culture at the time, a number of the musicians and groups that were prominent on the scene—including the Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Janis Joplin, and Santana (a group led by Carlos Santana)—eventually signed lucrative contracts with major recording companies. Santana, Jefferson Airplane (later renamed Jefferson Starship), and the Grateful Dead went on to have successful music careers in the ensuing decades, but Joplin died of a drug overdose in 1970—one of the events that for many people signified the end of the San Francisco scene.
"Selvin has provided an authoritative account full of rich details (sometimes too many) of the San Francisco music scene from 1965 to 1971. Armed with material from archives, nearly a hundred taped interviews, and his own recollections, Selvin, San Francisco Chronicle pop music critic (then and now), weaves together the stories of the Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Janis Joplin, Santana, and other bands that were part of the scene that redefined American pop music.
Again, every Psche database includes SANTANA, it's your option to accept him or not but this won't change the fact his one of the main exponents of the San Francisco Psychedelia movement.
To be honest I would feel more comfortable with Santana in Prog Related than in Fusion, at least it's wide enough to understand his diversity.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 26 2006 at 14:34
Joined: October 26 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 19
Posted: October 26 2006 at 14:48
The mid to late sixties was a fertile time for musicianly rock bands. The scene was so new that literally every sophisticated band could be seen as progressive.
This does not make them part of the prog rock scene and Santana never were. You could probably make an argument for any number of classic rock bands from that era if you wanted to get all your favorite bands listed in this databse for whatever reason. Does not make them prog rock though does it?
Surely a band has to be prog rock by design not just because a comittee decides they are.
Joined: February 15 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 319
Posted: October 26 2006 at 15:10
In addition to Abraxas and Caravanserai, listen to the triple live album "Lotus" - Santana is at the very least proto-prog. Certainly more deserving of being here than the Beatles.
Joined: August 02 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 540
Posted: October 26 2006 at 16:59
No, no, no. NO NO NO
xtopher wrote:
Now Joe Satriani needs to be here. He's extremely overdue.
I seriously HATE that guy. I went to a g3 show this week and satriani's performance was awfull. I don't know how said he was very melodic... well he ISN'T. His shreding almost got me to kill him. But i let him live .Anyway, he is in prog metal culture (its very common to see prog metalheads listening to satriani or vai), so i think he belongs here more than mr Santana.
Joined: January 26 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 243
Posted: October 26 2006 at 17:18
Santana, Prog? NO
Santana & Rob Thomas, YES!!
But really, I have no problem with alot of early Santana albums. But come on, we now have Santana in Prog Archives? But still no Brian Auger. (who is boatloads more progressive than Santana ever has been) Or even Walter/Wendy Carlos? I'm sorry, but for the last 20 years Santana has been about as prog as Menudo.
Joined: June 17 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 4828
Posted: October 27 2006 at 03:24
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
That's your choice, but honestly Santana is one of the main icons of San Francisco Psychedelia, that's a fact that can't be denied, probably your approach to Psychedelia is different but history doesn't lie.
Sean for example is not ready to accept some forms of Country music into Folk sub-genre and his approach is valid as yours.
But
Santana is the primary exponent of Latin-tinged rock, particularly due to its combination of Latin percussion (congas, timbales, etc.) with bandleader Carlos Santana's distinctive, high-pitched lead guitar playing. The group was the last major act to emerge from the psychedelic San Francisco music scene of the 1960s and it enjoyed massive success at the end of the decade and into the early '70s.
An influential rock style emerged during the mid-to-late 1960s in San Francisco, California. Sometimes called psychedelic rock, this form of rock was closely associated with the use of hallucinogenic drugs, such as Lysergic Acid Diethylamide (LSD); psychedelic art and light shows; and an emphasis on spontaneity and communitarian values, epitomized by free-form events known as be-ins. The San Francisco scene reached its high point with the so-called Summer of Love in 1967, when thousands of young people—often referred to at the time as hippies—flocked to the city to experience the culture.
Perhaps the most representative group of musicians to come out of San Francisco during this period was the Grateful Dead featuring vocalist and lead guitarist Jerry Garcia. The Dead experimented with long, improvised stretches of music called jams.Despite the antiestablishment orientation of the youth culture at the time, a number of the musicians and groups that were prominent on the scene—including the Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Janis Joplin, and Santana (a group led by Carlos Santana)—eventually signed lucrative contracts with major recording companies. Santana, Jefferson Airplane (later renamed Jefferson Starship), and the Grateful Dead went on to have successful music careers in the ensuing decades, but Joplin died of a drug overdose in 1970—one of the events that for many people signified the end of the San Francisco scene.
"Selvin has provided an authoritative account full of rich details (sometimes too many) of the San Francisco music scene from 1965 to 1971. Armed with material from archives, nearly a hundred taped interviews, and his own recollections, Selvin, San Francisco Chronicle pop music critic (then and now), weaves together the stories of the Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Janis Joplin, Santana, and other bands that were part of the scene that redefined American pop music.
Again, every Psche database includes SANTANA, it's your option to accept him or not but this won't change the fact his one of the main exponents of the San Francisco Psychedelia movement.
To be honest I would feel more comfortable with Santana in Prog Related than in Fusion, at least it's wide enough to understand his diversity.
Iván
What you do not understand, is that all bands in those lists of yours which are included in PA are in the "Proto-Prog" genre, not in "Psychedelic / Space Rock" genre. Please, do not make a mess with these things, but read the genre description from the front page. If "Proto Prog" artists would be transferred to "Psychedelic / Space Rock" genre, the same could be done for example to acid folk artists.
Besides, all bands which are to be included in "Psychedelic / Space Rock" genre will have to be progressive rock, and I don't see SANTANA as progressive rock, as many other people too won't. I think "prog related" would be the proper selection for this group, as are thinking the majority:
Poll Question: Do you think Santana is a progressive band?
24
[31.17%]
53
[68.83%]
When viewing SANTANA's career, only their few first albums are influenced by psychedelic culture. As majority of his career is pop oriented music, it would be a major mistake to include this kind of artist to the same list with real psychedelic progressive rock artists.
Besides, everything you claim as a fact and back up with arguments searched from the internet do not represent fact, but things which you want to present as facts, but which are only subjective viewpoints in my opinion.
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Posted: October 27 2006 at 03:53
Eetu, I only say a few things so please don't misunderstand me:
Santana is a musician emerged from the Psychedelic San Francisco scenario, that's an historical fact that can't be denied, it's widely documented and his music is in that category.
We have a Psychedelia/Space Prog sub-genre and at least until you make the changes (Or made, haven'tchecked Psyche page lately) each one was separeted from the other, being Santana one of the most representative members of the San Francisco Psyche movement it's possible t include there.
To say Santana's career is POP is simply a prove you're bnot familiar with his music. something you have accepted, he started as a Psyche artist and evolved into some weird and unique form of Latin Fusion, only their last couple of albums are MAINSTREAM, which is not a synonymous of POP.
The quotes I made are not only from informed sites but also from books that document Psychedelia and musical history, the post here includes votes from people who clearly are not familiar with Santana at all, some have accepted it, some only know Supernatural others a couple of early songs., probably a few know abouyt his work with John McLLaughlin, so this means nothing
The approach or understanding you have about psychedelia is perfectly valid, you're in charge of that team, it's your responsability and it's your choice to decide what is your position, something about what I can't and won't say a word.
Surely SANTANA is not a 100% Prog artist, I don't believe he ever released a Progressive Rock album, I have clearly stated I would be more comfortable with him in Psychedelia (Because I understand Psychedelia as a world wide movement of the late 60's not bnecessarilly Prog), Proto Prog or even Prog Related.
You are the one who must decide which bands you accept or not, I'm not trying to force ou to accept him or not, IMHO SANTANA would be perfect in Psyche (As I understand it), Proto Prog and/or Prog Related.
The only thing I'm sure here is that he's a musician rooted and born in San Francisco Psychedelic scenario and not a Jazz Rock/Fusion artist.
You say he's not Prog...I agree, you say he should bne in Prog Related...I also agree but if you say most of his career is POP then I respectfully disagree.
So try not to be so defensive because you will need a lot of patience when you have to inform about the changes you will make in Psyche just to receive 10% of the critics we received when doing the same thing in Symphonic because believe me, you will never make everybody happy.
Joined: June 17 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 4828
Posted: October 27 2006 at 04:49
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
:Santana is a musician emerged from the Psychedelic San Francisco scenario, that's an historical fact that can't be denied, it's widely documented and his music is in that category.
But these artists go to "proto prog"!
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
:We have a Psychedelia/Space Prog sub-genre and at least until you make the changes (Or made, haven'tchecked Psyche page lately) each one was separeted from the other, being Santana one of the most representative members of the San Francisco Psyche movement it's possible t include there.
Separated? WHAT! Space rock is a subgenre of psychedelic progressive rock genre! I won't accept anykind of slicings of this genre! San Francisco Psyche genre bands are "Proto Prog", so they can't be labelled here as "Psychedelic / Space Rock"!
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
:To say Santana's career is POP is simply a prove you're bnot familiar with his music. something you have accepted, he started as a Psyche artist and evolved into some weird and unique form of Latin Fusion, only their last couple of albums are MAINSTREAM, which is not a synonymous of POP.
Yep. I don't want to listen to his records, so it's logical that I don't know much about his career. What I have heard from the radio in excess his "Abraxs" album, his music is POP to me. If there has to be a special case of it, please send me his discography, and we listen the records with our team to form a more educated opinion.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
:The quotes I made are not only from informed sites but also from books that document Psychedelia and musical history, the post here includes votes from people who clearly are not familiar with Santana at all, some have accepted it, some only know Supernatural others a couple of early songs., probably a few know abouyt his work with John McLLaughlin, so this means nothing.
So now the voters are wrong? I think that would be a quite arrogant statement. I’m sure that you only want to see the situation in this way in order to maintain your own viewpoints.
Your quotations of the sources only proved that his early records are part of the San Francisco movement. This won't qualify as psychedelic progressive rock, but proto prog (third time telling this in this post).
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
:The approach or understanding you have about psychedelia is perfectly valid, you're in charge of that team, it's your responsability and it's your choice to decide what is your position, something about what I can't and won't say a word.
But you are saying lots of about it right on this thread with your statements, and you are welcome to do so. But I'll respond.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
:Surely SANTANA is not a 100% Prog artist, I don't believe he ever released a Progressive Rock album, I have clearly stated I would be more comfortable with him in Psychedelia (Because I understand Psychedelia as a world wide movement of the late 60's not bnecessarilly Prog), Proto Prog or even Prog Related.
So now you admit yourself that his music is not 100% prog? That should mean he should be surely moved to prog related! You understand rightly, that psychedelia was a very large movement. I also accept, that his first albums were influenced by this movement. But progressive psychedelic rock, going here with the clumsy genre name "Psychedelic / Space Rock”, charts only a certain area of psychedelic field, that being psychedelic progressive rock artists. I do not concider SANTANA as a pure prog artists.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
So try not to be so defensive because you will need a lot of patience when you have to inform about the changes you will make in Psyche just to receive 10% of the critics we received when doing the same thing in Symphonic because believe me, you will never make everybody happy.
I'm not trying to make anybody happy, what I'm trying to do is to make & keep "Psychedelic / Space rock" genre to a shape fitting the criteria defined to it. As you start pushing your favorite artist to that genre with arguments I see as false, and I can point that out logically, are you suggesting that I should not do so? I will, I promise you. I described earlier the arguments why they do not fit as psychedelic prog genre, please re-read them if in doubt.
Yours,
Eetu
PS: I'll try "illuminations"
Edited by Eetu Pellonpää - October 27 2006 at 08:51
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Posted: October 26 2006 at 10:38
.Anyway, he is in prog metal culture (its very common to see prog metalheads listening to satriani or vai), so i think he belongs here more than mr Santana.
Is Santana prog?
Topic Options
Sean Trane wrote:
Have you listened to this album? 
It is the twin of Caravanserai, albeit not quite as perfect 
[31.17%]