Phil Collins: Serious Discussion. - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

Chus

Prog Reviewer

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991

Posted: December 10 2006 at 13:23

Excuse me my dearest friend, but... how the hell do you know that???!!!??

So you KNOW he's in pop only because of the money.... you say that, within himself, he DOESN'T like what he's doing?

I think he was wealthy enough even before leaving Genesis so I really doubt he HAD TO PLAY MUSIC HE REALLY HATED.

Oh and something else.. did you know that Genesis as a progressive rock band could hardly afford a hotel room during tours?... The Lamb tours were a disaster financially, because of the expensive staging eating all the tour's profits (it was the first time they flew to the States and Canada, if I recall correctly, but perhaps I'm mistaken on that) they were not as wealthy as you thought... In fact, in my country they were not as known as Yes until later on. I don't blame them for making singles because music is their profession and they needed the money.. but then Phil got hooked to the money; as opposed to Hackett, who made Cured out of plain necessity, but then got back to making the music he likes whether people would buy it or not, ranging from plain classical to blues to jazz to Bossa Nova... and so on.

EDIT: the same could be said about Peter... does anyone remember the WOMAD incident?

Edited by Chus - December 10 2006 at 13:36

Jesus Gabriel

The T

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493

Posted: December 10 2006 at 22:21

Chus wrote:

Excuse me my dearest friend, but... how the hell do you know that???!!!??

So you KNOW he's in pop only because of the money.... you say that, within himself, he DOESN'T like what he's doing?

I think he was wealthy enough even before leaving Genesis so I really doubt he HAD TO PLAY MUSIC HE REALLY HATED.

Very good... we're only asking for explanations.... I'm not from those days so I really wouldn't know about that... good information.

But also, Collins DID get wealthy at least after 1989's release (which name now I don't remember)... but he KEEPS on doing pop, so that's why I say, he may like it after all.

His changing of opinions about prog.... well, he's just another guy. When even the guys that shouldn't change opinions DO, everybody is allowed... (I HATED Genesis first time I listened - and it was not We can't dance, it was SEBTP), and after listening to Foxtrot a couple of times, well.... now I have them in my top 10. We all can change.... and change back... the thing is, explain WHY and be HONEST about it...

Edited by The T - December 10 2006 at 22:23

Angplags

Forum Groupie

Joined: November 25 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 51

Posted: December 11 2006 at 07:19

I think Phil Collins is just a lousy <i>performer</i>, some people can't do the frontman thing. I admit he's a good drummer, and I really don't think anyone could be in Genesis in the prog period for so long if he hated the music and was secretly plotting or something (i'd love to believe the plotting thing, but it really is paranoid).

The only reason I hate Phil Collins so much is because of the flack I have taken in the past for being a Genesis fan when people associate this with the Collins era. If he had done it under another name I really wouldn't have cared a twopenny piddle, but years of having the piss taken for "liking Phil Collins" have taken their toll on my psyche.

However, I do believe that in the Gabriel period Collins was a vital member of the group, and a good drummer. And that is the only time I will ever bring myself to say it! LOL

There are 10 types of people in this world - those who understand binary form, and those who don't.

Guillermo

Prog Reviewer

Joined: November 28 2004
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 814

Posted: December 11 2006 at 10:31

peter_gabriel wrote:

the phil collins era is a great work just like the gabriel era..

Yes, it`s true. Look: even "peter gabriel" says that!

Avatar: Photo of Solar Eclipse, Mexico City, July 1991. A great experience to see. Maybe once in a lifetime.

Chus

Prog Reviewer

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991

Posted: December 11 2006 at 11:22

The T wrote:

Chus wrote:

Excuse me my dearest friend, but... how the hell do you know that???!!!??

So you KNOW he's in pop only because of the money.... you say that, within himself, he DOESN'T like what he's doing?

I think he was wealthy enough even before leaving Genesis so I really doubt he HAD TO PLAY MUSIC HE REALLY HATED.

Oh and something else.. did you know that Genesis as a progressive rock band could hardly afford a hotel room during tours?... The Lamb tours were a disaster financially, because of the expensive staging eating all the tour's profits (it was the first time they flew to the States and Canada, if I recall correctly, but perhaps I'm mistaken on that) they were not as wealthy as you thought... In fact, in my country they were not as known as Yes until later on. I don't blame them for making singles because music is their profession and they needed the money.. but then Phil got hooked to the money; as opposed to Hackett, who made Cured out of plain necessity, but then got back to making the music he likes whether people would buy it or not, ranging from plain classical to blues to jazz to Bossa Nova... and so on. EDIT: the same could be said about Peter... does anyone remember the WOMAD incident?

Very good... we're only asking for explanations.... I'm not from those days so I really wouldn't know about that... good information.

But also, Collins DID get wealthy at least after 1989's release (which name now I don't remember)... but he KEEPS on doing pop, so that's why I say, he may like it after all.

[IMG]height=17 alt=Smile src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>

Well he hated Yes for a while after he said Yes was his favourite, perhaps he got hooked with Yes again... I find it very convenient but well perhaps it's not true, but it's very possible... still, his music doesn't appeal to me and I've tried to get into his music; I just can't.... I guess it's just not my taste in the first place, it sounds cheap to me (almost Cindi Lauper cheap

, of course not to that extent, they are far better), I just can't help feeling that vibe about them.

Jesus Gabriel

rupert

Forum Senior Member

Joined: February 18 2006
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 610

Posted: December 12 2006 at 12:50

Ohhh how I dislike when people daintily talk of musicians "being in for the money".

You are if you wanna be a professional and make a living from music. If you are not forced to make a living from it... fine but please stop putting down those who have to and care for the business side. What's wrong with making money ? Do you all have rich parents ? For sure if you wanna be a musician it's gotta be from LOVING music... but making money with it, wanting to make money with it, having made money with it... that's no contradiction at all long as you do what you love.

...I'm a musician/singer/songwriter, visit me on www.reverbnation.com/rupertlenz and there you can choose from 125 recordings you can listen to ( for free ) if you're not limited to prog-rock !

StyLaZyn

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079

Posted: April 02 2007 at 12:09

The Lost Chord wrote:

For some reason, I feel as though Phil Collins was and is one of the most "passion-less" musicians ever. I will explain:

When he performed Supper's Ready for Seconds Out, I was disturbed by the final portion where he does his stupid mannerisms and looks around at everything like he is putting on a show, and trying to mimic gabriel.

I think Phil Collins is very much a extremely talented individual. He has acting and music flowing through his veins.

That being said, Supper's Ready was Gabriel's theatrical creation, not Collins'. Yes he does sound a bit odd mimicking Gabriel, but ANYONE would. I interpret Collins as a Hollywood Actor, and Gabriel as an Off-Broadway actor. Gabriel had much more of the Prog artsiness. Collins talent lied/lies in the music mainstream.

Edited by StyLaZyn - April 02 2007 at 12:09

GraemeD

Forum Newbie

Joined: April 02 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 17

Posted: April 02 2007 at 12:34

I actually prefer Collin's singin the Gabriel songs live... I remember PC commented once that he felt the songs were losing something because PG got out of breath with all his theatrics... who am I to disagree? But it sounds to me like he cared a lot about the music.

I like Phil Collins, he gets such a hard time from pop and prog fans alike. Lets put things into perspective.

He is now an aging star who has gone through 3 divorces and so faces his old age alone... give him a break guys! He's human

Shot by Darwin's Magic Bullet

darksideof View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: February 22 2007
Location: Newark N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 2318

Posted: April 02 2007 at 15:59

GraemeD wrote:

I actually prefer Collin's singing the Gabriel songs live... I remember PC commented once that he felt the songs were losing something because PG got out of breath with all his theatrics... who am I to disagree? But it sounds to me like he cared a lot about the music.

I like Phil Collins, he gets such a hard time from pop and prog fans alike. Lets put things into perspective.

He is now an aging star who has gone through 3 divorces and so faces his old age alone... give him a break guys! He's human

I am with you 100% give him a break he solo stuff is not that bad specially the 80 'stuff .my mother, my wife and daughter like 80' Genesis and Phil soothing voice, so he can't be that bad.!!!

Also the first time I heard of old genesis the songs from second out and three side live and I remember how much I felt in love with Phil singing peter tunes. As matter of fact I still prefer Supper ready from second out that than original. musically speaking the live version is more powerfully!!! and Phil voice is so beautiful and breathtaking. The end of that song brings tears to my eyes. Also another highly from second out is the carpet crawler the song was sang-ed by Phil 300 times better an dwith more pasion I think. Phil and Steve how beautiful that was.!!!

Does anybody have this second out and three side live on DVD? you do how can I get a copy I'll die to a copy of second out I have a extremely deteriorated copy on VHS a bad copy from a bad copy.!!!

Edited by darksideof - April 02 2007 at 23:11

http://darksideofcollages.blogspot.com/
http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Darksideof-Collages/

Guests

Forum Guest Group

Posted: April 03 2007 at 22:01

Oh woe is us. Hell hath nothing better to spend its' fury than fuminating about Phil. Multiple threads, multiple pleas to stop repeating ad nauseum the same sickening reasonings to puff one's ego up by playing up one's musician's supposed "importance" over another. Please, please, please (as per a certain James Brown), If we agree that you are right, in that we know you abhor Phil Collins, can we move to more pressing matters. I don't know, maybe who has the better hair -Tony Banks, or Mike Rutherford; does Steve Hackett, Steve Howe, or Steve Hillage have the neatest guitar collection; are Ian & Jon Anderson related; do people even bother to notice that certain threads have been done to death; are people aware of my predeliction to go overboard or even worse, on & On & On etc, is Jerry Garcia really grateful that he is dead, have his fans noticed .....

BroSpence

Forum Senior Member

Joined: March 05 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2614

Posted: April 03 2007 at 23:55

suomynona wrote:

Though Phil seems to be as commercial as they come, especially post 70s its hard for me not to forget his many positives those being;

drumming for Genesis (which I agree was excellent)

his work with Brand X which definitely was not a commercial expedition

helping out on some other side projects such as with Steve Hackett on "Voyage of the Acolyte"
etc...

I think you have to forgive him those 'mannerisms' on Seconds Out for I never quite felt he could match the showmanship that Gabriel had both in voice and in on stage prescence. So perhaps when performing on the grand epic Supper's Ready he just simply was somewhat out of his element. I've always felt that it wasn't until the 'Wind and Wuthering' album that we actually saw Genesis cater to Phil's lack of range and thus IMHO that is why that album was superior to the inconsistent "Trick of the Tail".

I've also noticed that Collins is even now willing to play around just for the fun of it. I've seen him make appearances with the cover band "The Musical Box" while they were on tour in Italy. To me that seems to indicate that there was some passion for this music even if perhaps he could'nt express it on stage.

He also played with Eno on Another Green World. However, I still don't like the guy.

blaughida

Forum Senior Member

Joined: January 20 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 143

Posted: April 04 2007 at 00:48

salmacis wrote:

Indeed. I've seen a profile thing from the 70s where Phil listed his influence as being Jon Anderson of Yes, yet some 20 years later he was railing against it. Rather like an interview in 1990 where he said Genesis had never sold out then in 2001 he said they had!!

However, despite these changes, I have always felt Collins was a fine singer. I've always preferred the version on Seconds Out of Supper's Ready, for example. What I've never liked was the adlibs he throws in at times which, I feel, is done to desparately distance himself from Gabriel.

Collins was a big Yes fan before he joined Genesis and went to Yes shows all the time. I cannot find any of the documents in which I remember reading this, but here is a link I found just now: http://www.themarqueeclub.net/interview-jeff-slatter-of-schy

I like Collins' singing a lot on the A Trick of the Tail album and not quite so much on anything else. He is really awkward-seeming in video footage, but I don't necessarily think that means he wasn't into the music. Maybe he's just awkward--I mean, this is a guy who wore overalls with no shirt on stage, which may be a step above the shirtless rock drummer routine but still looks entirely out of place next to the costumed Gabriel and the normally-clothed rest of the band. That's what I notice about Collins in the videos.

Placing most of the blame for either the breakup of the "classic lineup" or the change in sound on Collins doesn't make sense. It seems pretty clear from everything I've read that the primary tension in the band prior to Gabriel's departure was NOT Collins-Gabriel. Collins is the only member of the band Gabriel chose to work with later on. Blaming Collins alone for the change in sound is also ridiculous because it was a shared responsibility of the remaining members. Collins wrote some songs after the breakup of his marriage and the ones that ended up on a Genesis album are the ones Banks and Rutherford picked. Collins wasn't really a songwriter before this point--so if we really want to blame people, let's blame the other two guys, who were proven prog songwriters but decided to start doing a different sort of song, not Collins, who'd have been happy to put "Misunderstanding" on a solo album.

And I will add that, growing up listening to the radio, Genesis meant "Phil Collins but with more interesting music"--I learned to tell the difference between them before I knew about Genesis' prog origins. So I think he was better with the band, even in the '80s.

Edited by blaughida - April 04 2007 at 00:55

Atavachron View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 64643

Posted: April 04 2007 at 00:54

I still can't believe 'Tonight, Tonight, Tonight' is not a Phil song.. gahh

Edited by Atavachron - April 04 2007 at 00:55

salmacis

Forum Senior Member

Content Addition

Joined: April 10 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3928

Posted: April 04 2007 at 04:18

'Tonight Tonight Tonight' is a good track (though I don't go a bundle on the chorus)- I like the mid section a lot- but I believe Tony Banks had loftily compared its structure to 'One For The Vine'!! I mean, come on. 'One For The Vine' is one of the most complex and detailed Genesis tracks, imho.

Actually, on the subject of Phil's solo stuff, I do really like 'Face Value' which is his finest hour by a country mile. His other solo stuff, particularly 'No Jacket Required', does little for me at all.

Floydian42 View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: January 13 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 846

Posted: April 04 2007 at 07:48

You know, I wouldn't mind seeing Genesis on there next tour, even if the Prog songs are in medley's, oh well, collins all does do his best to at least make the show entertaining.

Although he's contradicted himself many times, it's clearly never hindered him as an artists or hurt his career. I think he lied to appeal to his modern fanbase at the time, who all weren't prog heads, really.

I hate Genesis after Duke, and I can't stand any of his solo stuff (alright, a couple tarzan stuff is OK, Wink

.) But I'd still see a show, just to have a good time.

GraemeD

Forum Newbie

Joined: April 02 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 17

Posted: April 04 2007 at 08:43

Atavachron wrote:

I still can't believe 'Tonight, Tonight, Tonight' is not a Phil song.. gahh

Isnt it?

Shot by Darwin's Magic Bullet

Guests

Forum Guest Group

Posted: April 04 2007 at 17:36

Can we all agree to just get along and listen/not listen to the Genesis era of OUR choice & argue about bigger things. Like, did Greg Lake's departure from King Crimson really mean the end of KC as an interesting band & did they ever really replace him as a vocalist ? Or, do you wish he had stayed in KC, so as to avoid the creation of ELP ? DId you buy the first Bad Company album because you saw Boz Burrell was bassist ? Where you one of those who were disappointed when Yes didn't continue their progressing up their yahoos by releasing a 3.5 song triple album after Tales ? Were you one of those who saw no difference between Rush & punk, because both created a cacophony of guitars, never mind the difference in compositional complexity ? Did you think that it was actually David Byrne & not Adrian Belew singing on KC's Discpline when you first heard it ? With the MAJOR shift in King Crimson's sound when they did return with Discipline, is there a reason why there's not an ongoing hate thread against Adrian Belew for being the cause for KC going "pop" or sounding so 80s ? Should Sammy Hagar have learnt anything from David Lee Roth's treatment at the hands of Eddie Van Halen ? Should Sammy get a new barber ? Should I quit this post now ? That one I can answer - YES!

White Shadow View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: August 20 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 259

Posted: April 04 2007 at 19:17

The Lost Chord wrote:

Hey, I have been meaning to ask this for a while.

For some reason, I feel as though Phil Collins was and is one of the most "passion-less" musicians ever. I will explain:

I don't know if anyone can take this feeling away from me, but I really wish I didn't think this. I LOVE his drumming with genesis, and always thought he was cool with them...but now whenever I watch old Gabriel genesis videos I look at collins in a different light. He just seems like he NEVER liked what they were doing, and was never really into the whole FEEL of the music.

Am I wrong? I am not certain, maybe it is just me, but I can't help but feel like this towards Collins.

Please, if anyone has anything to add, let me know!

Thank you!

I think you're bananas

[signature]

Witchwoodhermit View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: February 23 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 871

Posted: April 04 2007 at 19:51

[QUOTE=pantacruelgruel]Oh woe is us. Hell hath nothing better to spend its' fury than fuminating about Phil. Multiple threads, multiple pleas to stop repeating ad nauseum the same sickening reasonings to puff one's ego up by playing up one's musician's supposed "importance" over another. Please, please, please (as per a certain James Brown), If we agree that you are right, in that we know you abhor Phil Collins, can we move to more pressing matters. I don't know, maybe who has the better hair -Tony Banks, or Mike Rutherford; does Steve Hackett, Steve Howe, or Steve Hillage have the neatest guitar collection; are Ian & Jon Anderson related; do people even bother to notice that certain threads have been done to death; are people aware of my predeliction to go overboard or even worse, on & On & On etc, is Jerry Garcia really grateful that he is dead, have his fans noticed .....

Well ranted.

It's the one weak spot in these forums. P*ssing contests go on forever, and will never be resolved.

I know I've been guilty, of said contests, in the past.

Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan
ringed by ants and musing over man.

Chris S

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028

Posted: April 04 2007 at 20:20

The Lost Chord wrote:

El Morula wrote:

What's the point of bashing Collins and Collin's Genesis in every opportunity?. Why I never find any polls about the lousy music EL&P wrote after Works (being WORKS a mediocre work anyway), or about the insipid and unoriginal pop by Yes after Going for the one?, or about Rush after Permanent waves. Or Tull after Heavy horses, Gentle giant after 1974, Banco after 1975, Premiata after the third album, etc etc etc. ?????...Is bashing Collins and Genesis in the 80's a sport?.

For those who have not noticed it. Collins has played way more Progressive rock and other complex genres than Peter Gabriel has in his carrer. First of all, are you aware who were actually playing the music in those outstanding instrumentals of Hogweed, Musical box, In the cage, Supper's ready, The knife (live) etc etc etc etc etc ???. It certainly wasn't Gabriel. While Collins was breaking his back delivering some of the best drumming in prog in every concert, Gabriel was making funny faces, dancing around, drinking water, staying still, or, in the best case, playing those little tambourines that you never get to listen. Gabriel might have written the lyrics to most of the songs, including The lamb's, where he admits never placing a foot in the rehearsals room where the music was actually made, where Collins was a fundamental element. Collins as some well state, participated in several prog and fusion projects, playing great drums in every single second of every track. Where was Gabriel at the time?, writing his first and second solo albums with songs like "Moribund The Burgermeister", "Waiting For The Big One"....they suck big time !!!, and they could hardly be called prog !!!. He even wrote a pure pop song with "Solsbury hill". "Here comes the flood" is lovely, but not because of the complexity or its progressiveness, because it's neither !!!. But because of the feeling to it, but that's it. The first Collins album is way better than any first 4 album by Gabriel. The fact that Gabriel's had a little less pop don't make them any better. "The rythm of the heat" and "Lay your hands on me", "here comes the flood" nad "San jacinto" are the first interesting songs by Gabriel as a solo composer, and no one could deny they are very inconsistent and unpolished (at least the first 2 mentioned). The main strenght in Gabriel is the feeling and he couldn't deliver it in a sharp and consistent manner until his 4th or 5th album.

( Hey, right now my MP3 selected Tonight Tonight tonight randomly. From the so called "shame of prog", "Genesis purest sellout"...Etc.Has anybody payed attention to the middle section?, among other details?..These instrumental is way more interesting and complex than Close to the edge's !!!, the "best song in prog". Would anybody dare saying otherwise?. Honestly?.

The only defect I find in Genesis and Collins in the 80's is that their albums are from...the 80's !!!, stupid comment right?...Well, I find people bashing Genesis and Collins because in the back of their minds have the album covers and the 80's word that doesn't let them actually listen to the music. )

He is still making "no straight pop"?...So what?, he started making interesting music some 14 or 15 years after Collins had played 38,978,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999.00 notes of the best prog !!!. Gabriel was and may still be hungry to actually write something similar to prog, and he had better since he spent hundreds of concerts watching 4 guys playing music he could hardly say he participated in. People love bashing Collins for making pop. These people should also be more inteligent to notice he played prog for around 300 live shows (just to tell a number), for some 10 albums and for a good number of very good songs in plain 80's.

I love Gabriel's music, and as a Genesis fan I feel proud to say he was part of my beloved band, but please !!!, stop making a superheroe out of his memory. He never played a prog note in the 70's, managed to create some complex songs until US and Passion (where he got help from a wide number of musicians), he is still making something that could not be called completly pop, but that's it !!!. He's not the proggiest man by excelence. Collins I repeat, has played and composed way much more prog than Gabriel himself. And even as a Solo artist, I'd rather listen to "I don't care anymore", "I can hear through these walls", "like china", "Do you know, do you care", "Long Long Way To Go", "The west side", "In the air tonight" than most of Gabriels' first clumsy attempts as main composer. Lots of people will say they hate "But seriously". I for one, love it. You who argue Collins has no inspiration, just pay attention to "Saturday Night And Sunday Morning" and "Hang In Long Enough", full of energy and great pop. Yes !!, POP !!. Who cares about the genre if the music is well done?, Have you heard anything by Le Orme?, it's supposed to be great prog, no matter how much I've been listening to it carefully in the last few weeks, I find it cheesier everyday !!!. I push play on "Lessons of love" by Level 42 (Pure 80's pop) and keep loving it since it's release. I have news for you guys !!, Prog is not a warranty of quality !!.

"he's not prog, he's prog. I hate his pop"...give me a break !!!. Some of the most inspiring songs in history have nothing to do with prog. Has anybody listened to "Scarborough fair" by Simon and Garfunkel ?. "I heard it through the grape vine" by Marvin Gaye?.

If someone is wondering wether I really like Prog. Be sure I do, and I like even the least accesible. When it's good, I love it, when it's cheesy I hate it more than a Justin timberlake song.

So, yes...This must be surprising to most people. In a carrer balance, Collins has been way proggier than Gabriel himself. The so called "purist of prog"..HAHAHA !!!.

Defining prog is the issue here...Collins is barely a spec on prog planet IMHO. This is because he doesnt fit my definition of a prog musician.

You see it is rediculous comments like this make me want to puke. "Your" definition of a prog musician? Who the hell cares!

Edited by Chris Stacey - April 04 2007 at 20:24

<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]

Post Reply	Page <1 2 345 6 7 >