The much loved and hated ELP |
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profanatio
Forum Groupie Joined: November 21 2007 Status: Offline Points: 85 |
Topic: The much loved and hated ELP Posted: December 15 2007 at 00:22 |
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Its seems as though never in the history of prog rock has a band been so revered and yet so despised at the same time. I know there are some big time ELP fans here but I also know there are those that cant stand them. Its a bit perplexing to me.
They practically ushered in the genre, made virtuosity a thing to be admired and marveled at, topped the polls year after year in the 70's, Emerson constantly took home best keyboards awards in every major music magazine and their overall influence on other bands is so far reaching that it can never be fully estimated. Emerson is unquestionably the greatest multi keyboard player to ever live and is equally at home playing jazz with a big band or complex classical piano with a philharmonic orchestra. Whats not to like?? He is the living definition of a prog musician. Yes ELP could be bombastic and over the top but thats what made them so great. Who else has the nerve or the audacity to do some of the things they did? They constantly pushed the envelope and were probably the most adventurous band that ever lived. I think that the charge that ELP did not make consistent records is probably due to the fact that Emerson had so many musical influences in his life that he wanted to show them all on the ELP records. Thats why we have Benny the Bouncer, The Sherrif, Jeremy Bender and other stuff that showed a lighter side of ELP and also helped to break up the heaviness of the over all release. Some call it inconsistent.. I call it brilliant. I guess you had to "get" their humor They had a singular sound that not even Yes or Genesis could boast. What I mean by that is that in Yes and Genesis you could have personnel changes and most people would never even know it because the overall sound remained the same. Take any member of ELP out of the mix and you no longer had their recognizable sound. Anyway, as you can probably tell, I have slight fondness for that band. I can understand why the average uneducated and casual listener would hate ELP in many ways but I really dont understand why so many progheads hate them as well. And just to be clear about something, when I talk about ELP's greatness, I speak of the first album through Brain Salad Surgery. I'd love to hear feedback from lovers and haters alike! |
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Mike
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Raff
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24392 |
Posted: December 15 2007 at 08:05 | ||
I am an ELP lover, though, like you, I think their greatness ended with the live album. Their output after that does contain some gems, but unfortunately their fame is somewhat overshadowed by the dubious quality of the rest of the material.
However, as inconsistent as they may have been, they do represent the essence of Classic Prog in a way Genesis and Yes (to mention but two) don't. Let's face it - prog is not so much about making gentle, melody-filled music, but about bombast, technical chops, preposterous stories and concepts, and stretching the boundaries of 'traditional' rock music. As Mike aptly said, they were bold, brave and adventurous - much as what I say as their modern equivalent, The Mars Volta, are nowadays. Bands such as them command very strong feelings, and rarely leave people indifferent (like for instance Genesis do). |
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salmacis
Forum Senior Member Content Addition Joined: April 10 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3928 |
Posted: December 15 2007 at 09:30 | ||
Got a copy of Edward Macan's excellent book 'The Endless Enigma' today. I'd read through it many times in a nearby shop so I took advantage of a massive 50% discount offer to buy it.
But yes, this band REALLY divide even prog fans. The problem is, rather like Dream Theater to use a modern day equivalent, I suspect the band get heavily criticised by some people because others do it and it's the 'done' thing to bash ELP. From 1970-4 though, they were superb, IMHO. Their ambitions were matched by the quality of their music. There were dips- all of those rather crass novelty tunes- but those were few and far between. If they'd have split up then, I suspect their reputation would have been better all round.
Their de facto response to punk was to take out a mammoth symphony orchestra on tour and head into the bloated realms of mega-pomp. As a one-off spectacle, this would have been just fine, but to tour it was just madness. Worse still, they released three below par albums on the trot- 'Works Two', 'Love Beach' and 'In Concert'- that IMHO sullied their reputation even more. The subsequent reformations have been rather hit and miss too; 'Emerson Lake And Powell' is the one and only time they've even approached that earlier brilliance, IMHO. 'Black Moon' rather disappointed me when I heard it earlier in the year and I've never read a good word about 'In The Hot Seat'.
I do feel though that if they reformed now, they'd have a better response. I don't think their music is as thoroughly out of place as it was during that resolutely 60s-obsessed Britpop era of the mid 90s.Although their songs are generally more concise, the ELP trademarks are in Muse's sound to a certain extent. And yes, Mars Volta and, IMHO, Dream Theater have that same willingness to push things to the extremes and have achieved massive success of late doing similar things to what ELP had pioneered in the 70s. Edited by salmacis - December 15 2007 at 09:32 |
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profanatio
Forum Groupie Joined: November 21 2007 Status: Offline Points: 85 |
Posted: December 15 2007 at 12:03 | ||
I think that Emerson as a composer is so good that alot of his stuff goes right over alot of peoples heads much in the same way that some of the great classical composers were booed and hissed at in their time. Its really not fair at all to judge them for anything they did after the Works album. They were just trying to fit in at a time when prog was dying off. Also there was no use of the mellotron in that band and it seems like so many progsters rever the mellotron as THEE instrument that defines a great prog band. But I didnt see Tony Banks or Rick Wakeman every fronting their own 3 piece bands. They were great within their respective bands but neither of them are good enough writers to carry the full weight of their own bands like Emerson did. IMO
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Mike
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46828 |
Posted: December 15 2007 at 12:11 | ||
exactly as I feel darling ... I like what John had to say on his website about ELP. Some food for thought.... |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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laplace
Prog Reviewer Joined: October 06 2005 Location: popupControl(); Status: Offline Points: 7606 |
Posted: December 15 2007 at 12:17 | ||
I intensely dislike ELP but I'll share my reasons without mocking them.
The big one is Greg Lake; I find his singing cringe-worthy and his melodies always seem too bluesy for my taste. Finally, I've never found anything of interest in his acoustic spots - Lucky Man is just a commonplace strum-a-long, at least to me. Greg Lake managed to ruin "In the Court" for me, too, so I really have it in for him. ;P Aside from Greg Lake, I have a lesser complaint which basically amounts to this: I know they could play clever and original music but they hardly ever did! Tarkus is really exciting in places, but I can find nothing else among their catalogue that comes close to that moment (and I wish I could!) aside from Toccata - one of their many covers, unfortunately. The rest of their music is certainly well played but no more interesting for that, and usually just one-man jams or simple "popular classical" fusions which don't turn me on at all. If ELP had taken their songs down different avenues (and notably down instrumental-only ones ;P) I might be a fan right now. (see? no complaints about bombast or self-indulgence) |
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jimmy_row
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 11 2007 Location: Hibernation Status: Offline Points: 2601 |
Posted: December 15 2007 at 12:51 | ||
Whether they are the "defining" prog band or not and whether they are appealing or not depends largely on the attitudes of the particular listener. My view is that when they did something right, they were on fire, but they often stumbled along and had a tendency, much moreso than other bands of the time, to get sloppy (ie. playing and writing). As far as the divisiveness within the rock community in general: I would be missing some of the point if I attributed it completely to the band themselves...from many of the reviews I've come across (oooold ones, from "back in the day", and even some holdovers like the ones Micky posted) try to place ELP on some ridiculous plane with the likes of Bach, Beethoven, Mussogsky...it's all quite over-blown - perhaps these are the types of people they appeal to though, and the kind of overwrought opinions they attract (myself included). I can't help but feel slightly offended when Kansas and Procol Harum are referred to as talentless, when they wrote far more coherent and memorable songs than ELP ever could have....only the technicality couldn't measure up. In this view, the only criteria for a progressive band is musical ability - the writing, melodies, lyrics...none of this matters. Blowing off these important compositional aspects is pompous and annoying coming from fans, reviewers, and journalists....but maybe I'm just not enlightened enough to realize that they were the greatest band ever...
...Don't get me wrong, I do like ELP very much, and their hardcore fans are...interesting, but I'm fighting the urge to bash them here, possibly because I find the need to argue with everyone even if I agree with them Edited by jimmy_row - December 15 2007 at 12:52 |
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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profanatio
Forum Groupie Joined: November 21 2007 Status: Offline Points: 85 |
Posted: December 15 2007 at 13:24 | ||
Classical music and jazz have been a very big part of my life for the last 30 years or so and I initially owe that to ELP. Neither Yes nor Genesis ever inspired me nor asked me to investigate other forms of music the way ELP did. When Emerson, Wakeman and Banks are all old men in their 80's, Emerson will still be composing and playing classical music or playing jazz in a big band or a jazz trio format while Wakeman and Banks will probably be doing nothing. I could be wrong about that but it seems logical looking objectively at them all.
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Mike
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profanatio
Forum Groupie Joined: November 21 2007 Status: Offline Points: 85 |
Posted: December 15 2007 at 13:38 | ||
One more thing, Just about every prog keyboard player I can think of became a keyboard player because he wanted to be one. Emerson became one because he NEEDED to be. Almost as if he had no choice in the matter. His vision (Both with the Nice and ELP), his natural born ability, his compostional talents etc.. all place him in a catagory all by himself. Emerson could not NOT become what he was any more than Bach or Beethoven could not NOT become what they were. I'm not comparing Emerson to them but you get the message. The world of Rock (especially prog) keyboards was forever changed when Emerson arrived on the scene and his influence has been and will be felt for generations to come. I dont think that can be said for Rick Wakeman or Tony Banks. Not to diminish them in any way but they just didnt/dont have the natural gift of musical vision and talent Of Emerson.
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Mike
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the_id
Forum Groupie Joined: December 11 2007 Status: Offline Points: 47 |
Posted: December 15 2007 at 20:35 | ||
ELP have a cult following.
How pretentious a statement is that?
ELP were the biggest prog band in the 70's bar none, true the latter stuff wasn't ever going to be as good as the earlier stuff.
Other prog bands never reached the dizzy heights ELP did, but many made much more money by turning to pop (Yes, Genesis and Rush all take a bow).
Many people hate ELP because they are an easy target, but bum up second rate bands that couldn't lace ELP's boots.....get off their case. Edited by the_id - December 15 2007 at 20:36 |
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46828 |
Posted: December 15 2007 at 20:42 | ||
as far as cult following.. he is DEAD on the mark... he refers to NOW..
not then... when even housewifes in the midwest were belting out
'welcome back my friends' as the slaved away in the kitchen.
and an easier musical target.. with a bigger bullseye on their asses...I sure have never seen. They are an easy target.. .a missunderstood target (ahhh filler tracks? bullsh*t).. and a LARGE target... because if you know music .. you know of ELP. Like John says of some other prog groups.. they'd be easy targets as well.. . except that no one outside of hard core progheads know them. It is the nature of the music when you really push the boundries.. .ELP did it... found popular success with it... and paid the price in pop cullure for it as well. |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Teh_Slippermenz
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 11 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 321 |
Posted: December 15 2007 at 23:04 | ||
ELP. IS. THE. BEST. BAND. EVAR!!!
I feel that that was sufficient. |
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1800iareyay
Prog Reviewer Joined: November 18 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2492 |
Posted: December 15 2007 at 23:17 | ||
ELP were certainly instrumental in pioneering progressive rock and giving it a commercial foothold. However, they made the same mistakes Genesis and Yes did when faced with the explosion of punk. Realizing they would be literally slaughtered if they tried to adapt to the new sound, they were critically and commercially slaughtered by churning out bland, uninspired pop. The OP was fairly kind in saying they were derailed by "albums of dubious quality." I don' think there's anything murky about the quality of Love Beach.
Man, those were the days, back when they couldn't vote and certain people weren't allowed in country clubs. Do you remember? Pepperidge Farm remembers. When Micky is not working, he collects matches with which to burn many bridges. |
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ES335
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 10 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 168 |
Posted: December 16 2007 at 16:14 | ||
Chick Corea and Joe Zawinul make Keith Emerson look like Billy Joel.
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A B Negative
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 02 2006 Location: Methil Republic Status: Offline Points: 1594 |
Posted: December 17 2007 at 09:45 | ||
Punk may be perceived as a violent genre but I don't think any prog dinosaurs were literally slaughtered.
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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."
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Padraic
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: December 17 2007 at 10:07 | ||
Do those people actually listen to these Yes records with the volume past zero? I just can't understand this statement at all. I can hear significant changes in sound with every personnel change. Can you honestly listen to TFTO with Wake on keys and then Relayer with Moraz and say the "overall sound remained the same"? Edit: Overall, I'm a big ELP fan, but like a lot of threads here, I don't understand the need to try to build them up at the expense of other prog giants - I'd rather hear their praises sung (and you have done that) then point out supposed "deficiencies" in others - just seems like some are getting a little defensive about ELP...haha maybe the DT comparison with respect to "bashing" is apropos... Just realized maybe I'm getting too defensive about Yes. Edited by NaturalScience - December 17 2007 at 10:11 |
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46828 |
Posted: December 17 2007 at 10:17 | ||
As I've noted before.. you really can't take Relayer into account. The album was primarily arranged for guitar, drums, and bass... the keyboards sound as they were in fact... pasted in to a nearly complete framework. Relayer does sound different... it is that 'heaviness' that drives some fans to orgasmal heights.. but was NOT was Yes was really about.. That is why no album before sounded like it.. or any since. Moraz did have his own style.. but the differences go far beyond that. |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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A B Negative
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 02 2006 Location: Methil Republic Status: Offline Points: 1594 |
Posted: December 17 2007 at 10:23 | ||
I've never heard it so I really don't know, but how does the Emerson, Lake and Powell album relate to the ELP sound?
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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."
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Padraic
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: December 17 2007 at 10:24 | ||
But that's the whole point, isn't it? The sound was drastically changed because of Wakeman's departure. Would they have made an album like that if he stuck around? Doubtful. Edit: Or if you will, let's try the difference between the Yes album and Fragile, or between Close to the Edge and Tales. Edited by NaturalScience - December 17 2007 at 10:26 |
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46828 |
Posted: December 17 2007 at 10:28 | ||
No Pat.. .the whole point is the group didn't have a keyboardist when
they composed GoD and large parts of the album. The
whole group dynamic had changed.. the sound... not because of the
lack of wakeman... but of not having a keyboardist in the band. Moraz was brought in ...well into the sessions for the album.
Edited by micky - December 17 2007 at 10:28 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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