Examples of Dream Theater's influences

Reading this thread I've been surprised that nobody's mentioned the fact that DT have in my humble opinion, always worn their influences on their sleeves - be it dropping into Metallica or Floyd riffs mid song (not to mention Led Zep & even Lynryd Skynrd) on the double live "once in a livetime", or devoting whole segments of live sets to covering albums by bands they admit to be major influences (Metallica's "Black" album, Floyd's "Dark Side" and Iron Maiden's "Number Of The Beast" to name but three).

Had they denied their influences & antecedents, that'd be a different matter, but DT have never denied their influences - what I cannot understand is why some people consider that highlighting influences is having a go at the band.

I'm not the biggest fan of DT (mind you, I've seen them twice & do have 7 albums...), but neither am I a detractor from them; they are a hugely talented band.

But they have been influenced by others.

el böthy wrote: Yuhuuuuuuu Im seeing them tonight! Its gonna be so awesome (hopefully) ah, and yes, the whole Octavarium album is pretty much a rip-off... the last album is way better

darkshade wrote: idk why covering songs or albums by a band is bad. Phish did that every halloween for a time, but no one flacks them. however i am in agreement with how much DT wear their influences on their sleeves. nothing wrong with that, but why are they soooo proud of it? isnt the ultimate goal of being in a prog band (especially one like DT) to be original and unique? (they were once) idk how much more i can add to this discussion since most things have been brought up. i will say this. i was very disappointed with Systematic Chaos. I thought they were gonna drop most of the thrash metal thing and go more of the prog rock route ala Octavarium the song. instead they cranked up the metal (cmon you guys are in your 40's and 50's, not that there's anything wrong with playing metal in that age, but all the bands that do are washed up (Iron Maiden, Overkill, Testament, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, etc....)) DT need a reality check. if they still want to be heavy and fast, there's no problem with that. but there's no need to bring in thrash metal riffs every other song to still appeal to fans (cmon guys, thrash metal died in the early 90's, when you guys were up-and-coming, and you weren't playing thrash metal riffs then, lol)

The T wrote: el böthy wrote: Yuhuuuuuuu Im seeing them tonight! Its gonna be so awesome (hopefully) ah, and yes, the whole Octavarium album is pretty much a rip-off... the last album is way better   I'll see them in may! And I paid like 2937239 dollars to actually meet them!   I agree that he album were the influences were the clearest was octavarium....And, as Jim said, they wear them on the sleeve. LIKE EVERYBODY does.... nobody complaints about other bands, though...   Go listen to Marillion and tell me they weren't influenced by some band I shall not mention...(just an example).   Music is the art of artistic theft.

This was the first and will probably be the last time I see Dream Theater live. Although the show in itsfelf was not bad, and Labrie actually sung pretty good, I got very bored in the middle. It´s not like I ask anything from them other than what they delivered, but I felt I got the same excitment watching them live than watching them on a DVD. There where some songs that stood out, like Dark eternal night, Forsaken (along with Prophets of war, which they didnt play unfortunatly, the best track of SC... for me at least) and Take the time, and had they ended the show with this last two, I would probably be a bit more pleased with the show, but they came back (obviously) and did the whole In the presence of enemies epic... the first part is good, nothing spectacular but good... but the second part is, hands down some of the worst music DT has ever done... at least, again, for me.
Again, the show in itself wasn´t bad at all, but I don´t know... there is only this much Petrucci soloing I can take. I don´t know, maybe Im not as big of a fan of DT as I thought I was... but is it too much to ask for them to shake things up live? Like the Baldies always say, for listening the same note for note solo I can listen to them at home...

The T wrote: el böthy wrote: Yuhuuuuuuu Im seeing them tonight! Its gonna be so awesome (hopefully) ah, and yes, the whole Octavarium album is pretty much a rip-off... the last album is way better   I'll see them in may! And I paid like 2937239 dollars to actually meet them!   I agree that he album were the influences were the clearest was octavarium....And, as Jim said, they wear them on the sleeve. LIKE EVERYBODY does.... nobody complaints about other bands, though...   Go listen to Marillion and tell me they weren't influenced by some band I shall not mention...(just an example).   Music is the art of artistic theft.

MisterProg2112 wrote: Jim Garten wrote: But they have been influenced by others.   But then again who hasn't been influenced by others?

No one. You can't get something from nothing. But that is not the point of this discussion.

My opinion is that it is essential to learn from the past and have many "influences", but I have been drawn away from Dream Theater because I believe they do not internalize their influences and mix them tell enough to create something brilliant.

Mr.Garten- Yes, Dream Theater have always said they wear their influences on their sleeves. Yet this is still basis for my opinion that while influences are healthy, not fully developing them into one's music and integrating it carefully and subliminally makes it seem like one is "copying" another person.

I'll give an example- The song Repentance off of their latest album. Listening to the chord progression, I immediately noticed that it used similar half-step movements in a minor key and voice leading as is almost the signature sound of Opeth. Right after the first few lines of the lyrics about 2 minutes into the song there is a small unison interlude with the guitar and bass utilizing the same type of chromaticism seen, again, in Opeth. The section with the apologizing voices is very, very similar to the track Vocari Dei on Pain of Salvation's Be album, both being many taped progressing voices, both with messages of apology. Mike Portnoy, who wrote the song Repentance even left a message on the machine that POS had set up for the messages in their song, making it obvious there he came up with the idea of the voices in DT's song.

I could give tens of examples of this sort of thing, especially in their recent work. Their influences are Dream Theater's blessing and flaw. The strong (and somewhat obvious) influences are a blessing as they attract fans of their influences to the band and are able to create very, very diverse music. They are also a curse, as I have pointed out, as people may be disappointed in the seeming lack of individual "Dream Theater sound" in their music as well as originality. Take whichever side you want, it doesn't matter, but I've been on both.

StyLaZyn wrote: p0mt3 wrote: explodingjosh wrote: I think that "quoting" and "covering" are completely legal, creativitly wise. In Dream Theater's case, I don't think they even need to explicitly reference a band when they quote them. Like in the intro to Octavarium, its so blatant and obvious what they are quoting (if you know Shine On), a reference in the liner notes would be a "no sh1t" statement for most of their listeners. I think the problem is when the players sound way too close for comfort to another band. Its disappointing when you're craving new ideas. But I think these moments depend on the listener. I personally was pissed when I heard how James was singing (like R. Waters) in SFaM. I tried to not let it ruin the album for me.   Thank you! Someone else who can hear the Waters influence in LaBrie's SfaM work!   Having said that, I think SfaM (along with Octavarium, Awake and Images and Words) is one of the best albums DT ever did. The influences don't really bother me, but I think it's absurd when people defend them on the grounds that "all music is ripping off someone". Well, obviousely, but no other band really shows their ifnluences so obviousely; only DT.   Yep...there is a blatant ripoff of Waters from the Wall. But that's what you get when you lack creativity. Unless of course he intended to do so, in which case he better have throw Waters a bone in the liner notes.   For the record, I much prefer Octavarium, rip offs and all, over Systematic Chaos. I put in SC the other day and couldn't take it anymore during track 3. You know, I keep trying, hoping, but it never pans out. I did end up buying it for collection purposes, but there is a reason SC was collecting dust.   Bring back KMoore!!!!!  Bring back the DT of old!

 Quotes can be indicated in the sleeve, that could be helpful.

StyLaZyn wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: Do you guys seriously think that Waters invented that particular style? I'm sure that thousands of singer/songwriters did it before him. I wish some people would get off their high horse here ...   Mike, I don't question your point, but would very much like to know who Waters took his style from. I haven't heard every artist/singer out there, but I also have found Waters to be quite unique. I have always felt that Waters style was directly a result of his person and personality. His singing, to me, has always been a great illustration of the lyrics he wrote.

Agreed. But I don't think there are enough similarities between the two styles to call it a "rip-off". I'm a huge fan of Pink Floyd and I must have listened to The Wall more than 50 times, but I never ever thought of that album when I listened to Scenes from a Memory. I think that *maybe* they borrowed the concept - vocals and acoustic guitar strumming. But the vocal melody is not related to The Wall at all, and neither are the chord sequences.

i can hear it now but ill be honest, i never heard it before. Labrie definitely has a distinct style, like it or not, and it doesnt lend itself well to covering hardly any vocal styles particularly waters. i dont think this was done purposefully i just think he was singing softly and low. thats about it.